Why Two Airworthiness Certificates?

Half Fast

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Half Fast
I'm sorta curious about this. My Beech B-23 has two AW certificates, one dated 27 Feb 1969 and one dated earlier, 18 October 1968. The Feb 1969 date is the one recorded on the FAA website.

The first recorded sale of the plane was in March of 1969.

Any idea why there would be two? Anyone else seen this?


upload_2022-10-15_19-6-7.png
 
I’ve got three, but they are all different tail numbers.
 
I’ve got three, but they are all different tail numbers.

Well, yeah, but these are both the same tail and serial number.

(I know the Lance and the Mooney; what's your third?)
 
Any idea why there would be two? Anyone else seen this?
Since they're both issued by Beechcraft reps my guess is the aircraft was used by Beech for a different purpose under a Special AWC in between tjose dates. They both appear to be new issue docs and not a reissue. So once Beech was done they issued a 2nd AWC and sold it. They should have pulled the initial one. OEMs have a lot of leeway with their aircraft and can do basically anything they want. For example, if they would have kept your aircraft at the factory until today then decided to issue that AWC today, it would technically be considered a new aircraft in the eyes of the regulations.
 
Well, yeah, but these are both the same tail and serial number.

(I know the Lance and the Mooney; what's your third?)
3 for the lance. It’s had three tail numbers.
 
...my guess is the aircraft was used by Beech for a different purpose under a Special AWC in between tjose dates.


Interesting thought. Wouldn't the earlier certificate indicate it was a "Special" ticket, though? What sort of purpose would require a different certificate than the one they sold it with?

And FWIW, if the aircraft was "used" by Beech, it seems like they wouldn't have been able to sell it as a new airplane.

Just speculating here, but.... Could it be that Beech didn't have an order for the plane in late 1968, so they decided to sell it as a 1969 model? Maybe the '69s had different options, like a different radio or seat fabric. Could Beech have upgraded the plane into a 1969 model (whatever that means), then issued a new 1969 AW ticket and sold it as a '69?

Beech created a lot of confusion with changing model names and model numbers. The B23 was first approved in Dec 1967, so the first production models were delivered in 1968. Mine is a 1969, and called a "Custom" in Beech sales literature. A pilot side door was optional, but I don't think many were delivered that way (I've never seen one).

upload_2022-10-15_20-3-44.png

Then in 1970, Beech made the pilot side door standard, changed the model designation from B23 to C23, and renamed it the "Sundowner," still with the Lycoming O360. The Musketeer "Super R" listed in the table above is the retractable gear version, and somewhere along the way was renamed "Sierra."
 
Interesting. Vanity numbers or something similar?
I think the first change was done by an owner that wanted a specific number - which he moved to his new plane when he sold the lance, requiring a third number on the lance.
 
I actually didn’t notice the airworthiness cert was wrong when I bought the plane, but when I did, getting a new one was quick and painless, especially by FAA standards.
 
Wouldn't the earlier certificate indicate it was a "Special" ticket, though?
No. A Special AWC is a separate form. You had two Form 1362 issued. Its also the old, old AWC form. Was a time when you could tell if the AWC was issued by the MIDO route or the FSDO route to use todays terms. When I would research these things which AWC form number used was a clue but the person issuing the AWC is the main clue.
What sort of purpose would require a different certificate than the one they sold it with?
Perhaps a different prop than called out for in the TCDS... different tires... etc. Think experimental research and development, show compliance, etc.
it seems like they wouldn't have been able to sell it as a new airplane.
Until the aircraft is out in the public domain its still not technically "complete."
Could it be that Beech didn't have an order for the plane in late 1968, so they decided to sell it as a 1969 model?
Doubtful. The model year is stamped on the data plate and not indicated on the AWC. Whether the aircraft is "new" or "original" for certification issues is different than the year model in very general terms.
 
When I was out in Nebraska putting my plane back together after the engine swap, I could find everything but the Airworthiness Certificate. I wanted to test fly it the next day, so I called my favorite FSDO guy (have his number in my cellphone) and the next morning I had a PDF of a new airworthiness certificate. I had gotten ferry permits like this in the past so I asked him if this was a temporary. He says, NOPE, that's your new permanent one. I can print out as many OFFICIAL certificates as I need.
 
Any idea why there would be two? Anyone else seen this?View attachment 111468

It spend 18 months under the first AWC and I suspect the clue lies in whatever job Mr. D. O. Hill held, but you'd need Beech to tell you. Googling his name, I found his name making some of the first entries in an airframe log book signing off equipment certifications. You can find a bunch of POH approvals by Mr Rembleske, who signed the second one. Any clues in the first pages of your log book?

http://www.aso.com/seller/267/189980/Logs_N83VC.pdf

Possibly it was a demo aircraft? Or someone just misplaced the certificate? Both were signed by an employee of Beech, so the aircraft was there for a while.
 
I'd go with this answer....the clue is the Serial Number. It didn't change. The first ticket is trash.
Since they're both issued by Beechcraft reps my guess is the aircraft was used by Beech for a different purpose under a Special AWC in between tjose dates. They both appear to be new issue docs and not a reissue. So once Beech was done they issued a 2nd AWC and sold it. They should have pulled the initial one. OEMs have a lot of leeway with their aircraft and can do basically anything they want. For example, if they would have kept your aircraft at the factory until today then decided to issue that AWC today, it would technically be considered a new aircraft in the eyes of the regulations.
 
It spend 18 months under the first AWC


No, only about 4 months. Oct 68 to Feb 69.

No help from the logs. The first entry is 2/27/69 for “Prod flight time.” The first buyer got the plane in March 69.
 
I would suspect that while being flown for acceptance, there was a problem and the aircraft had enough work done on it, and equipment updates, that it was easier to issue a new certificate and new log books.
 
I've seen it, and logged 2 or 3 K hrs in one. It was/is a Bell BH212 and has a history. Bell needed an IFR civil helo for their line up.
It (SN 30569) was pulled from the factory production line in the early 1970's. The civil models were VFR only. The almost identical military UH-1N's were IFR. It was upgraded to FAA IFR standards and put through the test program. It got certified and then parked on the "used/bargain" ramp at Bell- Ft Worth.
A start up 135 operator was shopping Jet Rangers at Bell and could not pass up the sale price. Sn 30569 was put on the line at KARA. It developed a reputation as possibly haunted. Scared many pilots with stuff like sudden rolls on short final. At night. Always when the Automatic Flight Control system was on. It had a non- standard wire diagram from its Experimental life. It was routine to chop a wrist sized wire bundle, add or subtract some wiring using those metal "hand shake" connectors and wind up with a wire bundle much bigger. Years later, she was my ride and I suspected there was electrical cross talk in those bundles and was the cause of most unusual events. The AFCS was only a Cobra gun ship Stability Augmentation System but was called an AFCS anyway.
As I read her Rotorcraft Flight Manual, I found a short statement on the 1st page that said: "This RFM applies only to Sn ***** to 30568 and Sn 30570 to ****". What about that RFM provided on board my SN 30569? The FSDO knew about it.
I experienced several in flight failures that required "land as soon as possible/practicable" or "land immediately". My last one was an in-flight structural failure. She was returned to AW and looked pretty with the new paint. A pilot from our Alaska division showed up one day to take her away from me. He said she looked sharp and was to be fitted out with IR gear to track Polar bears. She had more than 30'000 hrs. She was later sold to a Canadian tour operation and refurbed. That operator said that she had 36,000 hrs plus and was a sweetheart.
N29AL had at least three AW certs in her career and was still going strong two years ago.
 
FYI: Unfortunately she must have still been haunted as she got hit with a voodoo wave and ended up in the trees in March 2021. Shame, good looking aircraft. Did it still have the shark fin on the roof when you last flew it?
https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2021/a21p0018/a21p0018.pdf
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcavpics/32481445551
Ah. That four-foot tall fixed fin that the FAA wanted added on the cabin roof when it was in the Exp phase. It was thought that it would dampen out some yaw. The FAA and Bell said it could finally be chucked because it provided zero stabilization. I think it went away early 90's. All the IFR 212's had them.
R.I.P N29AL. All her pilots will miss that miserable b**ch.
She definitely had some kind of creol gri-gris. We had to fall back on the spare 212 one day. It was old 29. The other pilot and I remembered that she was cursed. We were careful to NOT praise her in any way. He spat on her. I kicked her skids. T.O. and level off, I said " she's doing OK". As I said that I watched #1 hyd gauge drop to zero. Loss of TR boost. Landed OK.
 
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The FAA and Bell said it could finally be chucked because it provided zero stabilization.
The story I got from Shawn Coyle was a FAA guy wanted the fin for lateral stability if the single channel AFCS went belly up in flight. Once that FAA guy retired Bell came out with a Technical Bulletin to remove the fin. As I recall, the ink wasn't dry on the TB and we took off all the fins on our 212s.
 
medium.jpg Is this the fin you speak of? Just trying to picture it.
 
Is this the fin you speak of? Just trying to picture it.
Yes. Here's a different pic:
HNO+Timaru+07-06-84.jpg
 
The story I got from Shawn Coyle was a FAA guy wanted the fin for lateral stability if the single channel AFCS went belly up in flight. Once that FAA guy retired Bell came out with a Technical Bulletin to remove the fin. As I recall, the ink wasn't dry on the TB and we took off all the fins on our 212s.
Aint it a beaut! Thats the thing you climb over when you are on the roof checking all those rod end bearings. I think that FAA guy was Carl Starkey. I met him first when I was the Air Crash Rescue Chief the year Ft Wolters closed. I was told to expect a team from Ft Worth FSDO to borrow one of my Hueys. Starkey was in charge and the purpose was to find out what is needed to fly RW IFR. In a Huey. I also lent them a 1st LT who was good on the gauges.
Some years later, I was part 135 in Louisiana, and he showed up as our Principal Ops Inspector from BTR FSDO. We got along great. He owned a PA 22 Colt with a tail wheel conversion. He retired about the time the fins came off.
 
FYI: Unfortunately she must have still been haunted as she got hit with a voodoo wave and ended up in the trees in March 2021. Shame, good looking aircraft. Did it still have the shark fin on the roof when you last flew it?
https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2021/a21p0018/a21p0018.pdf
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bcavpics/32481445551
Thanks for the info. I shared with the Sn 30569 (N29AL) alumni and one called the last owner. Eagle Copters of Vancouver who said that it ran into extra high winds and rain. One engine flamed out and the tailrotor was lost. It did two flips when it went into the trees. Totaled and the single pilot was OK.
 
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