Why request "VFR On Top" Mr. Bungle?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
16,470
Display Name
Display name:
Sixer
What's the point of that request?

Doesn't sound like something a nice pilot would do.

You are in an IFR plight plan, and you are saying "Hey once I get up here, I am going to do my own thing don't you worry.
I'll let you know when I need you again"? Seems it would benefit both parties to stick with the plan (AKA the IFR flight plan)


Seems kind of rude.
It sounds like the Pilot / ATC relationship version of:

"Can you hold the ladder while I get on the roof?"
"Thanks for the help buddy now don't bother me. In fact just get outta here, scram beat it."
"I don't need you or anyone else for that matter"

2 hours later

"Hey buddy, I am sorry about that before. We're cool do you mind bringing that ladder back over here so I can get down?"

Who are you to treat ATC like this. This doesn't sound like a good friend to me.
A Mr. Bungle would treat people like this and use them only when in need but you are not a Mr. Bungle and would never treat your friend ATC this way.

So what's the point?

*10 points if you get the Mr. Bungle reference (From actual childhood memory not google. A Mr. Bungle would google it and pretend he knows).
 
My understanding is if youre VFR on top, you are still on your IFR flight plan but are accepting responsibility for your own separation.
 
I've never had a need for it. I'm sure there are cases where it could be useful, just not something I've ran into in the Midwest.

When I want to do my own thing - I just ask for a big block of airspace. Not hard to get around here -- we've got lots of it!
 
The Faith No More side project? I don't get it.
 
A lot of what you are referring to is just a short range VFR on top clearance. Climb through a layer in Cali, get out to VMC, cancel and do manuvering. We used to clear the helos for it in Miramar all the time. Their intent is to go onto the range at Pendleton and not the clearance limit. So, they get on top, cancel and become "over the top" or hold the IFR for a bit until they can cancel, then hit the R area.

I'd say most that do it for enroute stick with VFR on top for the duration for their own reasons (icing, turb, VMC vs actual wx).
 
I've never done it. Once IFR I stay IFR. I could see someone doing it if they got a whack routing and would prefer more direct once through a layer (and there's no layer on the other side).
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Their band name was derived from this video helping children learn Bad Manners versus good manners.
Click to expand...

That'll probably be the best thing I learned all day, I should just go home now.

edited to add: Totally showing that video to my son tonight.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
A lot of what you are referring to is just a short range VFR on top clearance. Climb through a layer in Cali, get out to VMC, cancel and do manuvering. We used to clear the helos for it in Miramar all the time. Their intent is to go onto the range at Pendleton and not the clearance limit. So, they get on top, cancel and become "over the top" or hold the IFR for a bit until they can cancel, then hit the R area.
Click to expand...

That's not a "short range VFR on top clearance". If you cancel IFR upon reaching VMC instead of reporting VFR conditions on top you won't receive a VFR-on-Top clearance, you'll just be operating VFR.
 
MetalCloud said:
I've never done it. Once IFR I stay IFR. I could see someone doing it if they got a whack routing and would prefer more direct once through a layer (and there's no layer on the other side).
Click to expand...

Being cleared to maintain VFR conditions on top does not free you from your cleared route.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What's the point of that request?

Doesn't sound like something a nice pilot would do.

You are in an IFR plight plan, and you are saying "Hey once I get up here, I am going to do my own thing don't you worry.
I'll let you know when I need you again"? Seems it would benefit both parties to stick with the plan (AKA the IFR flight plan)


Seems kind of rude.
It sounds like the Pilot / ATC relationship version of:

"Can you hold the ladder while I get on the roof?"
"Thanks for the help buddy now don't bother me. In fact just get outta here, scram beat it."
"I don't need you or anyone else for that matter"

2 hours later

"Hey buddy, I am sorry about that before. We're cool do you mind bringing that ladder back over here so I can get down?"

Who are you to treat ATC like this. This doesn't sound like a good friend to me.
A Mr. Bungle would treat people like this and use them only when in need but you are not a Mr. Bungle and would never treat your friend ATC this way.

So what's the point?

*10 points if you get the Mr. Bungle reference (From actual childhood memory not google. A Mr. Bungle would google it and pretend he knows).
Click to expand...
I'm not ifr yet, but it seems like the better analogy would be, "thanks for helping me up on the roof, I don't need you to stand there and watch me, so go have a beer and watch the game and I'll let you know when I need help again".
 
roncachamp said:
Being cleared to maintain VFR conditions on top does not free you from your cleared route.
Click to expand...

Whoops. I guess I forgot that already! Lol

Eh, I never do it anyway... if I want something more direct I just ask for it in the air.
 
roncachamp said:
That's not a "short range VFR on top clearance". If you cancel IFR upon reaching VMC instead of reporting VFR conditions on top you won't receive a VFR-on-Top clearance, you'll just be operating VFR.
Click to expand...

Ugh. You will and we did. I'm talking about the clearance itself (AIM). Canceling once on top doesn't negate the fact it was an OTP clearance. Just because approach didn't say "maintain VFR on top" doesn't change the clearance. It's done in Cali a bunch.
 
Velocity173 said:
Ugh. You will and we did. I'm talking about the clearance itself (AIM). Canceling once on top doesn't negate the fact it was an OTP clearance. Just because approach didn't say "maintain VFR on top" doesn't change the clearance. It's done in Cali a bunch.
Click to expand...

We've been over this before. Your understanding of VFR-on-Top operations, and perhaps a great many others in Cali, is not correct.
 
The entire purpose of it is to be able to pick your own altitude to stay out of clouds. Can make for a smoother ride if you care. You are still on IFR clearance and ATC is still responsible for separation. but unlike requesting new altitude, you simply inform ATC of a new altitude(like with flight following).

EDIT: Doesn't even have to be on top of all layers. You can get that clearance in-between layers. As long as you are in VMC. I've never used it, but i'm new to IFR :)
 
I'm no expert (just your lowly IFR pilot), but VFR on top is simply ATC clearing you to maintain a VFR altitude of your choosing after entering VMC conditions above the layer. You are still IFR, still must follow routing, and are still under control of ATC if they need you to do something.

Why would this be useful? One situation I could think of would be because cloud tops aren't always consistent in height. With VFR on top you can climb or descend to stay out of the clouds without constantly bugging ATC for a new altitude.

Now I await the deluge of corrections from my understanding. I'm sure I got something wrong.
 
There doesn't have to be any clouds involved. You can request "VFR on top" when it is completely clear from horizon to horizon.
 
kgruber said:
There doesn't have to be any clouds involved. You can request "VFR on top" when it is completely clear from horizon to horizon.
Click to expand...
How does that work? That's just IFR in VMC. Doesn't there have to be something to get over the top of to be 'VFR on top'?
 
I've been cleared out of John Wayne airport to VFR on top dozens of times over the years. The point is to punch through the coastal stratus, with tops normally around 3000-4000', and then get to the proper VFR altitude (8,500' northbound) to traverse the Hollywood Park Route through the LA Class B.
 
AIM: 4−4−8. IFR Clearance VFR-on-top

1. pilot must request VFR-on-top in lieu of an assigned altitude (but must adhere to VFR hemispheric rule)
2. ATC authorization may contain a clearance limit, routing and an alternative clearance if VFR-on-top is not reached by a specified altitude
3. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to “maintain VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions” pilots on IFR flight plans must:
a. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.159
b. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14 CFR Section 91.155
c. Comply with IFR that are applicable to the flight; i.e., min IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio comms, course to be flown, alt change, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.
d. clearance to operate “VFR-on-top/VFR conditions” does not imply cancellation of the IFR flight plan
e. ATC will not authorize VFR or VFR-on-top operations in Class A airspace​
 
I think a lot of people are confusing the IFR clearance of "VFR-on-top" with flying "VFR over the top" of a cloud layer. Two totally different things.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
*10 points if you get the Mr. Bungle reference (From actual childhood memory not google. A Mr. Bungle would google it and pretend he knows).
Click to expand...

They showed that film to my class in 3rd grade. It was dated at the time. Then when I was in 6th or 7th grade, I saw Pee Wee Herman play it as a goof on his Off Broadway show (featuring Phil Hartman) that was shown on HBO.
 
I guess i could see doing it for cloud dodging for icing considerations at cruise.
 
Ryanb said:
How does that work? That's just IFR in VMC. Doesn't there have to be something to get over the top of to be 'VFR on top'?
Click to expand...

No. It just allows a pilot to fly at VFR altitudes. Just like an IFR clearance does not require IMC.
 
kgruber said:
No. It just allows a pilot to fly at VFR altitudes. Just like an IFR clearance does not require IMC.
Click to expand...
Learned something new. I always thought it was simply a clearance which allows a climb through a cloud layer and then once VMC, you can either cancel IFR or fly VFR on top at a VFR altitude.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What's the point of that request?

Doesn't sound like something a nice pilot would do.

You are in an IFR plight plan, and you are saying "Hey once I get up here, I am going to do my own thing don't you worry.
I'll let you know when I need you again"? Seems it would benefit both parties to stick with the plan (AKA the IFR flight plan)


Seems kind of rude.
It sounds like the Pilot / ATC relationship version of:

"Can you hold the ladder while I get on the roof?"
"Thanks for the help buddy now don't bother me. In fact just get outta here, scram beat it."
"I don't need you or anyone else for that matter"

2 hours later

"Hey buddy, I am sorry about that before. We're cool do you mind bringing that ladder back over here so I can get down?"

Who are you to treat ATC like this. This doesn't sound like a good friend to me.
A Mr. Bungle would treat people like this and use them only when in need but you are not a Mr. Bungle and would never treat your friend ATC this way.

So what's the point?
Click to expand...

- may allow you to fly on top yet remain at a non-oxygen altitude (11500/12500) if the non-oxygen IFR altitudes you need are not available due to traffic.
- may give you a direct routing when the IFR altitude would require a more complex routing.

With 'VFR on top', you are still on the IFR flight plan but you are responsible for your own separation. You'll still get advisories and vectors if necessary.
 
I do it routinely. Especially on a long flight after first couple of hundred miles if am planning to cancel IFR anyway. Avoids zigzagging around vors and VAs. As far as being to rude to controllers- they don't care one way or another. Actually guy flying VFR makes their job less stressful because it puts more responsibility of pilots then them.
 
I've done it for an ELT search. Got an IFR climb to on top when I needed to traverse a cloud layer, and then canceled above the clouds. ELT searches can be done IFR, but require maneuvering that is sometimes hard to predict. If the signal is weak, it will involve things like steep turns. I'd rather do that VFR.

Easy signals can be done under a cloud layer (if it isn't too low), but tough ones usually require more altitude and some feeling around.
 
roncachamp said:
We've been over this before. Your understanding of VFR-on-Top operations, and perhaps a great many others in Cali, is not correct.
Click to expand...

I understand the clearance of OTP in 4-4-8 B completely.
 
MAKG1 said:
I've done it for an ELT search. Got an IFR climb to on top when I needed to traverse a cloud layer, and then canceled above the clouds. .....
Click to expand...

That's not VFR-on-Top. That's IFR climb to VFR and cancellation of IFR.

I'm really confused why this VFR-On-Top always causes so much confusion. ;)
 
genna said:
That's not VFR-on-Top. That's IFR climb to VFR and cancellation of IFR.

I'm really confused why this VFR-On-Top always causes so much confusion. ;)
Click to expand...

I guarantee the controller told him to "climb to and report reaching VFR on top. No tops reported / tops reported at..."

Now, whether or not he stayed IFR and maintained his OTP clearance doesn't matter. He was still authorized to do the operation in the initial clearance. AIM 4-4-8 b
 
I file an IFR plan to go direct somewhere.
After I depart, ATC tells me I need to go to 4 other cardinal directions because someone else wants my direction and altitude.
My response is almost always "I'm now VFR on top. Enjoy the day."
 
Velocity173 said:
I guarantee the controller told him to "climb to and report reaching VFR on top. No tops reported / tops reported at..."

Now, whether or not he stayed IFR and maintained his OTP clearance doesn't matter. He was still authorized to do the operation in the initial clearance. AIM 4-4-8 b
Click to expand...

Yup, that's exactly what the clearance was.

I could have stayed IFR up there, but it wasn't the best choice for what I wanted to do.
 
Shepherd said:
I file an IFR plan to go direct somewhere.
After I depart, ATC tells me I need to go to 4 other cardinal directions because someone else wants my direction and altitude.
My response is almost always "I'm now VFR on top. Enjoy the day."
Click to expand...

THAT would be VFR "over the top." And the phraseology is "cancel IFR." VFR on top is not VFR. It's an IFR clearance.
 
In the terminal environment it can work very well when low level clouds/visibility is present. I have departed IFR with low time students, climb on top and then request VFR on TOP so we can work on slow flight, Steep turns, stalls, etc. and when ready to return just request vectors for the ILS.

I have also used it when practicing IFR approaches in similar conditions, by requesting VFR on TOP the controller can vector us closer to other traffic while vectoring us back for another approach.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
In the terminal environment it can work very well when low level clouds/visibility is present. I have departed IFR with low time students, climb on top and then request VFR on TOP so we can work on slow flight, Steep turns, stalls, etc. and when ready to return just request vectors for the ILS.
Click to expand...
Amen to that.
 
tlglenn said:
It can be useful if the MEA is something odd like 8100, you're in VMC anyways, dont want to cancel IFR, and you don't feel like climbing to 10,000.
Click to expand...

That is the only reason that would make sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top