Bill Watson
En-Route
I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
I guess you ask that about all we do in this sport/hobby/obsession.
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I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
This sounds like a job duct tape was designed for!We installed a glass panel in a Supercub and had to build a bracket to mount the magnetometer to the aft wing spar. Mounting required a couple of holes drilled in the aluminum spar, which requires an engineering signoff. You simply do not go drilling holes in spars unless you'd like some big fines or jail time. The engineering doesn't come cheap, as aeronautical engineers tend to have PE status and are paid accordingly. You can't just use existing bolts, either, as that device has to be installed well away from anything ferrous.
So what did they charge you?I waited 4 hours to have tire and tubes changed once at a local shop. In that 4 hours I watched the same mechanic go between 3 planes off and on. In my head I’m thinking man, $125 an hour for each plane, billing 24 hours of labor for an 8 hour day.
I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
Has anyone done a DYI install of the G5 AI? It seems like it should be pretty simple...
The question is whether you'll get $20K more enjoyment for the next $20K you spend on the new avionics. For some people yes, for others, no.I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
In order to support their dealers / installers, avionics makers are avoiding the "slide-in replacement" upgrades to existing avionics. For instance, Garmin could have made the 650/750 units, slide ins for the 430/530, but dealer/installers wouldn't like that. The installer nearest me wants $2900 to put in an intercom (not an audio panel, an f-ing intercom). That should be a lesson for everyone.I was looking at putting some new avionics in my plane, well not new (Garmin 430w, GTX330, Garmin audio panel, and maybe two G5s) and after talking to some installers it looks like I could be looking at over $7k just for the install alone. Why?
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, if I won the lottery I would go to a glass panel simply because it makes your instrument scan a little easier. Pretty much all the technology is in the autopilot and GPS and the screens are just that, $8,000.00 TV’s.The question is whether you'll get $20K more enjoyment for the next $20K you spend on the new avionics. For some people yes, for others, no.
There are a couple more upgrades that would add value for me — new paint, a new interior, a modern audio panel, and a SIRS mag compass top the list — but replacing my steam gauges (which I like) with glass wouldn't make my plane fly any faster or better, and would take away a bit from my enjoyment, so no, not worth it (for me).
OTOH, I have no regrets about installing a simple autopilot in 2011, or an IFR GPS and ADS-B transponder in 2017—for me, they enhanced my flying experience enough to justify the money. But otherwise, I'd rather spend my next $20K on gas, recurrent training, nice hotels and meals for overnight trips, etc—it goes a long way there.
If I won the lottery, I'd buy a very simple taildragger with minimal steam gauges for fun VFR flying, and a fast, comfortable plane with all the bells and whistles for cross-country trips. I suspect, though, that I'd enjoy the simple taildragger a lot more, and the fancy plane would spend most of its time in a hangar.Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, if I won the lottery I would go to a glass panel simply because it makes your instrument scan a little easier. Pretty much all the technology is in the autopilot and GPS and the screens are just that, $8,000.00 TV’s.
In order to support their dealers / installers, avionics makers are avoiding the "slide-in replacement" upgrades to existing avionics. For instance, Garmin could have made the 650/750 units, slide ins for the 430/530, but dealer/installers wouldn't like that. The installer nearest me wants $2900 to put in an intercom (not an audio panel, an f-ing intercom). That should be a lesson for everyone.
But otherwise, I'd rather spend my next $20K on.....recurrent training.....
That, and just flying a lot.Best return on the money if safety is of any concern.
Agreed. I think we need to apply Hanlon's Razor here before we go looking for any deep, evil conspiracy. It was probably just a matter of some excited engineers saying "look, here's our new and improved tray!" and the product manager not realising the sales implications of changing it.I could be wrong, but I doubt that they forgo slide in in order to drive up install prices. Slide in replacements lower the cost to buy new units and keep people loyal to the brand so dealers can sell more products. Garmin gets none of the installation costs. Consequently, it does no good for Garmin to drive install costs up so installers (but not Garmin) can make more per individual sale when it drives down the ability to move new units. Better to lower the install costs so total unit sales go up. We saw Garmin start to get wise with 650xi/750xi units.
They bill for person time, not clock time. If a shop double- or triple-billed a mechanic's time during a shift, it would be criminal fraud.I waited 4 hours to have tire and tubes changed once at a local shop. In that 4 hours I watched the same mechanic go between 3 planes off and on. In my head I’m thinking man, $125 an hour for each plane, billing 24 hours of labor for an 8 hour day.
...with lawyer time double- or triple-billed.They bill for person time, not clock time. If a shop double- or triple-billed a mechanic's time during a shift, it would be criminal fraud.
I helped my A&P with a Lynx NGT-9000 install. Man, was it a bear. It has so many options it's dizzying. We ended up taking about 25 hours before it was operating properly. Granted, someone who had done it before could do it much faster, but it is still a time-consuming job.
Years ago when we added a GNC300xl to our Arrow panel we went with a then "Approach Systems" Pro Hub and Cable System, all avionics connect separately, so now for example changing a Transponder means we only need a new xponder cable to the hub, same for a radio, altitude encoder, Nav indicator etc. Our avionics shop had given us a quote for the install without the hub, and would only an charge hourly rate for the install with the hub, in the end buying the hub and cables plus the hours charged came out less than the original quote. And now we save money with every change or addition, to our panel.
There are more folks at Approach besides Tim Hass?The best part was the deep knowledge on the part of the folks at Approach, particularly Tim Hass.
i have often wondered how much labor it is to get rid of every piece of old wiring nightmare out and re-wire the entire thing... but i am afraid to ask the question to my avionics guy
Ya wanna know why upgrades cost money? This is why:
o boyCouple hundred hours NBD.
i have often wondered how much labor it is to get rid of every piece of old wiring nightmare out and re-wire the entire thing... but i am afraid to ask the question to my avionics guy
I had a pro shop build the harnesses for the G3X system in my RV-10. IIRC, the harnesses were $2500. They span from all of the G3X boxes to a 2 servo autopilot to a Garmin 625, Com gear, Txp, etc. Even after that, I guarantee there's 50 more hours in routing and terminating things, 'cause you frequently only get the connector on one end and bare wires on the other end so you can fish the bare wire end through the nooks and crannies, then terminate the wires once you've pulled that end of the bundle to its destination.
I can guarantee in my old bird there is a gazillion feet on wires that doesn’t go anywhere. At one point this plane was a avionics test bed for ASI, just during those 15 years or so, they had changed like 20 diff instruments. If I ever have to go this route, I might pull every wire out myself, route the wires under supervision and get something consolidated.
There are more folks at Approach besides Tim Hass?
I don't know either. I just know that the couple times I called, the conversation always started with "Hi, this is Tim".Frankly I have no idea. He’s the only person I’ve ever communicated with there. I don’t even know how big an organization it is, how long it’s been around, what all they do.
Sounds like you might know more... please share.
I don't know either. I just know that the couple times I called, the conversation always started with "Hi, this is Tim".