"why do you wish to deviate?"

roncachamp said:
No "Change of destination while on an IFR flight plan" to be found there.
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Based in the new guidance they can pretty much report what they want. Reporting a change of destination IFR or even VFR would be within their power if they believe it to be unusual or suspicious.
 
Groundpounder said:
I don't understand why some of you are getting wrapped around the axle about this. Just tell them why.

"Passenger request"

"Weather at destination"

"Need to stop for fuel"

Most controllers could care less why you are changing, but as retarded as their procedures may be, they still have to comply with them. An overly long explanation does no one any good, and the guy on the other end of the radio is just rolling his eyes as you enter into a lengthy dissertation.
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I think it affects the balance of who is really in charge of the flight. ATC can requires that pilots tell them their intentions, so ATC can do their job of keeping the dots separated. "Why" doesn't really affect that calculus. If pilots have to report "why" they're doing what they're doing, it does suggest, like 6PC joked, that the wrong answer to "why" could result in a refusal. The relationship between pilots and controllers shouldn't be "Mother May I?"
 
Ron Levy said:
True, but it does say "Some examples are, but are not limited to;..." Perhaps you, as a former controller, aren't in the loop on what other things are considered reportable. :dunno:
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It says "other unusual IFR/VFR flight information". There's nothing unusual about a change in destination, IFR or VFR.
 
Velocity173 said:
Based in the new guidance they can pretty much report what they want. Reporting a change of destination IFR or even VFR would be within their power if they believe it to be unusual or suspicious.
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There was a requirement to report a change in destination when operating IFR when it was not unusual or suspicious. "Center, we don't like the look of that weather up ahead, we'd like to change our destination to..." Nothing unusual or suspicious about that, pilots have been diverting for weather as long as there's been air travel. Notice JO 7210.761 required such a change to be reported to the DEN, it appears there is no longer such a requirement.
 
I flew home Friday instead of Sat. for good reason...... Until late afternoon here I in central AR, the convection was crazy Saturday. TS all over the place and trying to go VFR would not be a good idea at all. IMC w/o radar would be a really bad idea.


On the way home Friday, I filed for Hot Springs as Conway was buried in TS. Over lake ouachita, it looked really good tot the north so I asked for the change if the controllers radar looked good. He said it did, then a departing Pirep on frequency just said it was good and changed. I was never asked for a reason, although it was implied.
 
roncachamp said:
There was a requirement to report a change in destination when operating IFR when it was not unusual or suspicious. "Center, we don't like the look of that weather up ahead, we'd like to change our destination to..." Nothing unusual or suspicious about that, pilots have been diverting for weather as long as there's been air travel. Notice JO 7210.761 required such a change to be reported to the DEN, it appears there is no longer such a requirement.
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That's your opinion on what's suspicious or unusual. Based on the new guidance in the 7210.3, I'd say they have pretty good latitude on what to report. Considering the comments posted here about a controllers query into a VFR dèstination change, perhaps they're trying to determine if the change is unusual or suspicious. Just because you believe a change of destination isn't important, doesn't mean the FAA or a particular controller is in agreement. If that was the case, then the 7210.761 would never have been issued in the first place.
 
Velocity173 said:
That's your opinion on what's suspicious or unusual.
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Of course.

Based on the new guidance in the 7210.3, I'd say they have pretty good latitude on what to report.
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They can report anything, the issue is what are they required to report.

Considering the comments posted here about a controllers query into a VFR dèstination change, perhaps they're trying to determine if the change is unusual or suspicious. Just because you believe a change of destination isn't important, doesn't mean the FAA or a particular controller is in agreement. If that was the case, then the 7210.761 would never have been issued in the first place.
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Notice 7210.761 and similar previous notices never should have been issued.
 
Groundpounder said:
I don't understand why some of you are getting wrapped around the axle about this. Just tell them why.

"Passenger request"

"Weather at destination"

"Need to stop for fuel"

Most controllers could care less why you are changing, but as retarded as their procedures may be, they still have to comply with them. An overly long explanation does no one any good, and the guy on the other end of the radio is just rolling his eyes as you enter into a lengthy dissertation.
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:yeahthat:
 
"The first officer needs to use the restroom."

"OK, do you want me to hold your IFR clearance open?"
 
Groundpounder said:
I don't understand why some of you are getting wrapped around the axle about this. Just tell them why.

"Passenger request"

"Weather at destination"

"Need to stop for fuel"

Most controllers could care less why you are changing, but as retarded as their procedures may be, they still have to comply with them. An overly long explanation does no one any good, and the guy on the other end of the radio is just rolling his eyes as you enter into a lengthy dissertation.
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I like posts which start 'I don't understand...' and then answer the 'understand' part further in the post. Always a good contribution.

As for my point, I don't want the feds asking "why" am I going to do something. I'm the pilot, you are the controller, I select how, where, when, and WHY I fly, and you(controller) provide those services. And yes, I realize it's not the controller generally who wants to know the why, but the puppet masters behind the scenes that think they need to keep track of people who fly in the NAS.

On a side note, there's serious talk afoot to make tracking cars a whole lot easier with a dedicated GPS code for each car, and the ability to remotely enable the location service on that car, just like OnStar offers. For those that 'don't understand' that this is a bad idea, well - you are gonna love big brother of the future.
 
Is "because I am the PIC" a sufficient answer? I changed my destination flying IFR along the NC coast, staying behind a line of storms moving through, several times as it progressively cleared in front of me. ATC did not ask why, although they did complain after having me descend to start an approach just before I asked for my final destination instead [which had no approaches, a grass field near the beach] and had me climb out to free the airspace.
 
docmirror said:
...On a side note, there's serious talk afoot to make tracking cars a whole lot easier with a dedicated GPS code for each car, and the ability to remotely enable the location service on that car, just like OnStar offers. For those that 'don't understand' that this is a bad idea, well - you are gonna love big brother of the future.
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Yikes!

When stuff like that is proposed, we really need to be asking ourselves, "What could a tyrant, or even a would-be tyrant, do with that capability?"
 
docmirror said:
As for my point, I don't want the feds asking "why" am I going to do something. I'm the pilot, you are the controller, I select how, where, when, and WHY I fly, and you(controller) provide those services. And yes, I realize it's not the controller generally who wants to know the why, but the puppet masters behind the scenes that think they need to keep track of people who fly in the NAS.
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Notice 7210.761 did not require controllers to ask "why" a pilot on an IFR flight plan was changing his destination, it required only that the change be reported. In my experience most pilots state the reason when making the request but I never asked anyone "why" that didn't provide it. It was none of my business.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Speak for yourself. But whether I agree with the value of this or not, the reason I gave above is why they ask. Whether you choose to cooperate is up to you, but they're not going to stop until you do give an answer, and I don't see any gain to the pilot by giving them false information.
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Dependent on the circumstance I'm sure.

"Six papa charlie, why do you wish to deviate?"

"Because I was supposed to drop off six large bags of something in Oklahoma and the people I was supposed to give it to said it would be a real bad idea to land there right now."
 
Ron Levy said:
That's your opinion, but what HQ FAA is currently telling ATC personnel may be different.
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It's not an opinion at all. That there's nothing unusual about a change in destination, IFR or VFR, can be verified by asking any experienced controller.
 
Groundpounder said:
I don't understand why some of you are getting wrapped around the axle about this. Just tell them why.

"Passenger request"

"Weather at destination"

"Need to stop for fuel"

Most controllers could care less why you are changing, but as retarded as their procedures may be, they still have to comply with them. An overly long explanation does no one any good, and the guy on the other end of the radio is just rolling his eyes as you enter into a lengthy dissertation.
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The correct answer is "passenger discomfort"
 
We report changes of destination on all IFR aircraft to the DEN. As a controller, it's a directive from management, so I am required to ask, and the reason for the change is reported to the DEN. If a pilot refused to give a reason for the change, that would be reported to the DEN as well ... Would they consider that suspicious at that point? I don't know. I suspect it would be investigated, though.

Maybe it's not required nation-wide to ask, but at some AT facilities, management requires it.

For a VFR, I may ask just to try to be helpful. A lot of VFR pilots are afraid to ask for a vector around a rain cell or inquire about where there are better conditions....I might be able to help a pilot come up with a better alternative because of all the information I have available to me. But, I think most controllers are happy to let a pilot go on his own if he doesn't want to give any information other than "we changed our mind".

One other scenario....I have seen pilots trying to go to flow-restricted airports file for a nearby airport, then change their destination once they're airborne to the one they really wanted to go. That is generally frowned upon; I don't know what the FAA's official position is on that practice.
 
DJTorrente said:
I think it affects the balance of who is really in charge of the flight. ATC can requires that pilots tell them their intentions, so ATC can do their job of keeping the dots separated. "Why" doesn't really affect that calculus. If pilots have to report "why" they're doing what they're doing, it does suggest, like 6PC joked, that the wrong answer to "why" could result in a refusal. The relationship between pilots and controllers shouldn't be "Mother May I?"
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There is no "mother may I" about it. YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF THE AIRPLANE! Not ATC! You won't blindly follow a vector that puts you into the middle of a thunderstorm or a mountain, will you?

docmirror said:
I like posts which start 'I don't understand...' and then answer the 'understand' part further in the post. Always a good contribution.

As for my point, I don't want the feds asking "why" am I going to do something. I'm the pilot, you are the controller, I select how, where, when, and WHY I fly, and you(controller) provide those services. And yes, I realize it's not the controller generally who wants to know the why, but the puppet masters behind the scenes that think they need to keep track of people who fly in the NAS.

On a side note, there's serious talk afoot to make tracking cars a whole lot easier with a dedicated GPS code for each car, and the ability to remotely enable the location service on that car, just like OnStar offers. For those that 'don't understand' that this is a bad idea, well - you are gonna love big brother of the future.
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So you're worried about "big brother", while flying IFR in the United States? You have something even better on board your airplane than a GPS tracker, its called a transponder. It's a little hard to stay incognito with that thing beeping away. Stop eating so much Subway, your synapses will fire a little faster and you'll be able to figure this stuff out.
 
Groundpounder said:
So you're worried about "big brother", while flying IFR in the United States? You have something even better on board your airplane than a GPS tracker, its called a transponder. It's a little hard to stay incognito with that thing beeping away. Stop eating so much Subway, your synapses will fire a little faster and you'll be able to figure this stuff out.
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Woohoo! I have a stalker :yes:

One more guy interested in who I am, what I do, what I eat, where I go to the bathroom, if I'm Blueish - cuz I don't look blueish.

I'm so proud. sniff,sniff.
 
docmirror said:
Woohoo! I have a stalker :yes:

One more guy interested in who I am, what I do, what I eat, where I go to the bathroom, if I'm Blueish - cuz I don't look blueish.

I'm so proud. sniff,sniff.
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More like blewish. And I'm stalking you via the GPS chip in your head.
 
Jmcmanna said:
We report changes of destination on all IFR aircraft to the DEN. As a controller, it's a directive from management, so I am required to ask, and the reason for the change is reported to the DEN. If a pilot refused to give a reason for the change, that would be reported to the DEN as well ... Would they consider that suspicious at that point? I don't know. I suspect it would be investigated, though.

Maybe it's not required nation-wide to ask, but at some AT facilities, management requires it...
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If management in at least some facilities is requiring controllers to ask, that leaves the question of whether there is any statute or regulation that requires pilots to answer. One thing we do know is that there is a statute that prohibits lying.
 
Palmpilot said:
If management in at least some facilities is requiring controllers to ask, that leaves the question of whether there is any statute or regulation that requires pilots to answer. One thing we do know is that there is a statute that prohibits lying.
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'Deviation reason invalid or missing. Remain present course and altitude'.


Zese papers,,, they are nicht in order. You vill land vere ve tell you to land - and you vill be escorted.
 
docmirror said:
'Deviation reason invalid or missing. Remain present course and altitude'.


Zese papers,,, they are nicht in order. You vill land vere ve tell you to land - and you vill be escorted.
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And then 91.123(b) would kick in.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Dependent on the circumstance I'm sure.

"Six papa charlie, why do you wish to deviate?"

"Because I was supposed to drop off six large bags of something in Oklahoma and the people I was supposed to give it to said it would be a real bad idea to land there right now."
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I dare ya! :D
 
Palmpilot said:
If management in at least some facilities is requiring controllers to ask, that leaves the question of whether there is any statute or regulation that requires pilots to answer. One thing we do know is that there is a statute that prohibits lying.
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Why would a local ATC practice leave any question in replying to an ATC question? Facilities have many LOAs, SOPs, facility memos, waivers, etc. that modify FAA documents like the 7110.65 & the 7210.3. To go against the grain simply because you don't agree with their policies would be futile.
 
Velocity173 said:
Why would a local ATC practice leave any question in replying to an ATC question? Facilities have many LOAs, SOPs, facility memos, waivers, etc. that modify FAA documents like the 7110.65 & the 7210.3. To go against the grain simply because you don't agree with their policies would be futile.
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"Resistance is futile." (Sorry, couldn't resist. :D)

In most circumstances, I don't see any harm in answering the question. However, there are apparently some pilots who prefer not to attract FSDO attention by reporting a relatively minor mechanical issue. :dunno:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72013
 
docmirror said:
Sorry, I'm not a 'look it up' sort of guy. Lost on me. :wink2:
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Sorry. (We've discussed that one so much on Pilots of America that I assumed everyone had it memorized! ;))

§91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions

...(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised...​
 
I've changed destinations numerous times while on a VFR flight plan, IFR flight plan or even just flight following. For all of the reasons listed here.

Just me, but I always thought it polite to say the reason for the change, in just a couple words.

And I think controllers may sometimes just be curious/cautious enough to ask for a reason if not volunteered.

Either way, not a big deal, IMHO.
 
'Passenger comfort'

So how much more does the DEN know now ?

If the destination is a uncontrolled field, make sure to broadcast 'all traffic in the pattern please advise'.
 
Oh I always give a crazy or TMI answer to this question. It is part of the fun of diverting. "Passenger needs to defecate" or "I need to drop my wife off she won't stop talking", and so on. I usually get a groan or laugh or two on frequency.
 
Hawka said:
Oh I always give a crazy or TMI answer to this question. It is part of the fun of diverting. "Passenger needs to defecate" or "I need to drop my wife off she won't stop talking", and so on. I usually get a groan or laugh or two on frequency.
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I thought you were a student pilot?
 
Hawka said:
Oh I always give a crazy or TMI answer to this question. It is part of the fun of diverting. "Passenger needs to defecate" or "I need to drop my wife off she won't stop talking", and so on. I usually get a groan or laugh or two on frequency.
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Velocity173 said:
I thought you were a student pilot?
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Hawka said:
Yes I am but that doesn't stop me from deviating.

:dunno:
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Yes but it is ill-advised to joke with ATC about having a passenger as a student pilot.

I always thought this question was often like the "why did you execute a missed approach" question that ATC sometimes asks. "I did not have adequate visibility" is way more critical to them than "I didn't want to land there and it was just a practice approach".
 
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