jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Free food and beer? Hell, I'll come out from Socal!
Yeah..I'm sweating a bit over how many people could come.
Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot
- Thread starter QuiQuog
- Start date
Yeah..I'm sweating a bit over how many people could come.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 11,186
- Location
- Lone Jack, MO
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
When and where is this shindig?
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
It'll be held on July 18th at 6:00 pm in Lincoln. The event will be off-airport mostly because there is no way I'd be able to convince anyone on the airport to let me do it there.
Would love to see you there, and would provide you with ground transportation.
Initial details are available here:
http://www.nebraskaflight.com/party
I'm still working on the details and plans...
vdehart
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2013
- Messages
- 140
- Location
- Long Beach/Torrance, California
- Display Name
Display name:
vdehart
For the record, I have two exceptional stick and rudder students who are post-dual/solo cross country at about 15 hours each. We are cleaning up manuevers for the sport pilot checkride and I expect to have them taking the checkride by 25 hours. I am fully confident in their abilities. The reality is that exceptional students can get the ticket at or near the minimums.
N918KT
Line Up and Wait
At one of the GA airports near my home, a few months ago, I mentioned to a CFI in a conversation who works at one of the flight schools that I would go back to flight training in a heartbeat if they offered sport pilot training. Of course, the CFI tried to talk me out of sport pilot training and he mentioned about the negatives of sport pilot flying.
To be honest, I kind of find it insulting if a CFI discourages me from doing sport pilot training and tries to talk me into getting a PPL. A few other pilots that I met at the airport also have a negative view about sport piloting.
Do any of you prospective sport pilots find it a bit insulting if CFIs and PPLs try to talk you out of sport piloting?
To be honest, I kind of find it insulting if a CFI discourages me from doing sport pilot training and tries to talk me into getting a PPL. A few other pilots that I met at the airport also have a negative view about sport piloting.
Do any of you prospective sport pilots find it a bit insulting if CFIs and PPLs try to talk you out of sport piloting?
Last edited:
Did you mention to him that you can't get a medical? Why don't you just buy a Pt 103 Ultralight? You'll find people in the ultralight community who will help you.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
Exactly.
Just mention you are thinking of getting into sport flying for medical cert reasons and you probably won't hear any static about it, because at that point a sport license makes total sense.
N918KT
Line Up and Wait
I usually don't tell them I am getting a sport for medical reasons because they will probably then ask what conditions do I have, which I do not want to reveal, or they will give me advice on how to get a medical or even push me into getting one, which I do not want to risk getting denied.
Instead I tell them I am getting into sport piloting because there are other benefits about sport piloting besides the drivers license medical. The DL medical is not the only reason why I want to get a sport.
Yes, it is insulting.
And, Henning's question is why it is a bit insulting.
It's only insulting if you choose to be insulted. If you are ashamed of yourself, it's a problem. If not, it's no problem. If you go through life trying to hide who you are, this will be small potatoes as far as issues go.
No, it is insulting to have to justify wanting to get the Sport Pilot license. It is an appropriate goal on its own.
valittu
Pre-takeoff checklist
I find it insulting just because Sport Pilot fits my mission, irrespective of the medical leniency, and as much as I will probably fly enough to qualify for a PP-ASEL someday, I have no desire to fly in bad weather, or at night or carry more than one passenger. That does not mean that I don't want to train to deal with VFR into IMC situations, nor does that mean that I don't want to learn to fly at night just in case I'm forced to at some point.
I was excited when a local flight school, Aviation Adventures(KHWY) acquired a Cessna Skycatcher 162 LSA. I was discouraged to find out that you can't train in it without at least a third class medical. Obviously, my money isn't good enough for them, so when my schedule allows, I'm heading to Chesapeake Sport Pilot(W29) almost 100 miles away, just to take the final hours for my SP certificate that are actually required in an LSA. My first 15 hours were in a Cherokee Warrior at Manassas Regional(KHEF) and that's the rub with me because it would actually make Sport Pilot the "more affordable entry into aviation" if the light sport aircraft designation was more broadly defined to include Cessna 150s, Cherokee 140s & 160s and maybe even Cessna 172s. They're literally at every flight school already and they're cheap to rent for the most part.
An awful lot of Private Pilots are, for lack of a better word "offended" by those of us who have no use for their rating of choice. I wonder if Instrument rated Pilots are that way to VFR only Private Pilots?
Last edited:
I've found even a PPL/IR that decides to go LS is considered less of a pilot. My LS will out perform a C172 and similar.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
It's not like that.
The FBO would love your money, and I'd wager wishes they didn't need a medical for LSAs, trouble is it's that the insurance company wants a third class, and between a uninsured 70k plane plus liability for your biz vs loosing out on a student or two, what would you do?
Per "their choice" of ratings, it's because many folks, especially CFIs, who have been around and seen lots of people learn to fly, know there is zero benifit to getting a limited license if you can get a medical, but there are quite a few draw backs to going Sport Pilot.
As a CFI I'm not offended, heck I get paid the same per hour ether way, I just want to make sure I give my students factual information so they can make a informed decision based on their limitations, or lack thereof.
As for LSA planes, there are some sweet birds out there, also some duds, just like certified, nothing new.
Since I can't resist lol... if you want to go there, my certified stalls lower than your J230, cruises faster, hauls more, full IFR, and doesn't sink if it lands on water
Last edited:
Everskyward
Experimenter
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2005
- Messages
- 33,453
- Display Name
Display name:
Everskyward
So how did it go?
valittu
Pre-takeoff checklist
It's not like that.
The FBO would love your money, and I'd wager wishes they didn't need a medical for LSAs, trouble is it's that the insurance company wants a third class, and between a uninsured 70k plane plus liability for your biz vs loosing out on a student or two, what would you do?
Per "their choice" of ratings, it's because many folks, especially CFIs, who have been around and seen lots of people learn to fly, know there is zero benifit to getting a limited license if you can get a medical, but there are quite a few draw backs to going Sport Pilot.
As a CFI I'm not offended, heck I get paid the same per hour ether way, I just want to make sure I give my students factual information so they can make a informed decision based on their limitations, or lack thereof.
As for LSA planes, there are some sweet birds out there, also some duds, just like certified, nothing new.
Since I can't resist lol... if you want to go there, my certified stalls lower than your J230, cruises faster, hauls more, full IFR, and doesn't sink if it lands on water
Actually, the gentleman at Aviation Adventures told me that it wasn't an insurance restriction at all, because I asked...it was their own policy. He was, in essence, turning down my money, and that's fine. They're an award winning school...they're obviously busy to the degree that they don't need my money. What's dumb about the whole thing is, if the medical requirement is even slightly altered, it will nullify EVERY argument against obtaining a Sports Pilot certificate.
And help me to understand, how can you classify ANY earned license to fly "zero benefit"? Explain that one, please. While you're at it, list these "drawbacks" for being able to fly in less hours if you qualify and it fits your mission.
I don't know if the aviation community is just misinformed or closed minded. I'm just not seeing how pushing people AWAY from flying is going to help promote it.
No, it really isn't, that's the thing. It is a mistake if one can hold a medical. There is no other advantage. Basically you end up going through more hassle and spending the same money to earn reduced privilege. That's why people without that piece of information will try to talk you out of it every time.
It's not like that.
As for LSA planes, there are some sweet birds out there, also some duds, just like certified, nothing new.
Since I can't resist lol... if you want to go there, my certified stalls lower than your J230, cruises faster, hauls more, full IFR, and doesn't sink if it lands on water
Forgot what you fly? No resist needed. And of course you can do more with a certified plane; night flight, IFR. If they change the 3rd class, I'll probably go back to a Mooney. We like to go XC and 120 knots makes CA a two day flight for us.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
Hey hey, I said "there is zero benifit to getting a limited license if you can get a medical"
I'm very surprised at the school, a C162 is very expensive and very limited, to buy one and CHOOSE not to offer LSA training to the no medical folks makes zero sense to me
SPL vs PPL
The Sport license is NOT ICAO, it works only with LSA elgiable planes, it's not good for IFR, night, etc.
The PPL is good for all that stuff, is ICAO, and can be used in both LSA and non LSA, plus of you only find yourself flying LSA, just don't bother with the medical anymore, decides two years later that you want a Cirrus, just go get a medical.
Observed averages, both take up nearly the same hours, many LSAs rent for more than most C150s, price is nearly the same, sometimes even favoring then C150 PPL.
A185F amphibian, with robertson STOL, which is the only reason I can claim the stall win
I'll hand it to the J230/430, very impressive numbers! Also sure beats my fuel burn.
Mark Kelmar
Pre-Flight
I don't think PP's flying just for fun or short X countrys(300 nautical or less) are giving up anything switching to an LSA, quite the opposite in my limited experience.
I'm a 650 hour PP, I typically fly 182s,206s, and have about 30 hours of Seminole time. I recently got checked out in a Piper Sportcruiser, it was a blast!
I was flying a 2010 airplane instead of a 40-50 year old airframe, glass panel with an HSI, GTX 330, G696, EFIS, and a great autopilot. It even has a ballistic parachute. It stalls at 31K, fly's off the runway at 45K, and is very simple to fly. It has a light kit for night flights. With 2 big guys and 14 gallons of avgas, I saw about 4-500 FPM climb from our 5000' elevation runway.
Compared to a typical 172, useful load is less, but all other performance figures were equal or better, very comfortable seats, great visibility, and a lot more shoulder room. 300 mile trips would be no issue, and it's a lot cheaper to operate than a 172.
The biggest issues seem to be turbulence, x wind landings past 12 knots or so, and with this particular model, poor ventilation and a pretty bad solar heating once the canopy is closed.
For anyone wanting to fly just for the joy of flying, LSA seems to be a good way to get into aviation.
I'm a 650 hour PP, I typically fly 182s,206s, and have about 30 hours of Seminole time. I recently got checked out in a Piper Sportcruiser, it was a blast!
I was flying a 2010 airplane instead of a 40-50 year old airframe, glass panel with an HSI, GTX 330, G696, EFIS, and a great autopilot. It even has a ballistic parachute. It stalls at 31K, fly's off the runway at 45K, and is very simple to fly. It has a light kit for night flights. With 2 big guys and 14 gallons of avgas, I saw about 4-500 FPM climb from our 5000' elevation runway.
Compared to a typical 172, useful load is less, but all other performance figures were equal or better, very comfortable seats, great visibility, and a lot more shoulder room. 300 mile trips would be no issue, and it's a lot cheaper to operate than a 172.
The biggest issues seem to be turbulence, x wind landings past 12 knots or so, and with this particular model, poor ventilation and a pretty bad solar heating once the canopy is closed.
For anyone wanting to fly just for the joy of flying, LSA seems to be a good way to get into aviation.
A PP gives up NOTHING. An SP gives up the option of an entire fleet of aircraft less expensive and more prolific in numbers, plus the ability to carry more people. That's the issue. PP gives up nothing, SP gives up a lot.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
They are not giving up anything they want.
Unless they cannot hold a medical, I don't think you can find the evidence to back that up. Plenty of threads have testimony of several who have upgraded from SP to PP.
It's really pretty simple, if you can hold a medical, then SP is a poor value. If you can't hold a medical, SP is a great value.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
Well, a couple of people on this thread have indicated that Sport fulfills all their wants and desires.
Yes, some Sport Pilots later upgraded to Private. What Sport can do, is get you done sooner, and that is a fact. Once licensed, they can start enjoying themselves, taking their spouse or significant other along.
The faster someone can get certificated, the more likely they are to actually finish. A big problem with Private is that most that start don't finish. Money starts getting tight or it is taking too long to finish and life gets in the way.
The "faster" thing is red herring, it takes as long as it takes. The entire concept of considering aviation in the context of "let's see how much knowledge we can not have to acquire and go flying" s one that has always confounded me. 
Does it really matter when the first time you take a passenger with you is? Are you so time critical? Cost is a complete non issue as you will continue flying after you get your license. There is no big difference in the cost of aviation when you get your ticket.
If you own an LSA plane, and that's all you'll fly, then SP makes sense as well. If you're a renter pilot, SP really limits your market choices which is the biggest reason not to go that route if you can get a medical.
Does it really matter when the first time you take a passenger with you is? Are you so time critical? Cost is a complete non issue as you will continue flying after you get your license. There is no big difference in the cost of aviation when you get your ticket.If you own an LSA plane, and that's all you'll fly, then SP makes sense as well. If you're a renter pilot, SP really limits your market choices which is the biggest reason not to go that route if you can get a medical.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
The "faster" thing is red herring, it takes as long as it takes. The entire concept of considering aviation in the context of "let's see how much knowledge we can not have to acquire and go flying" s one that has always confounded me.
If you own an LSA plane, and that's all you'll fly, then SP makes sense as well. If you're a renter pilot, SP really limits your market choices which is the biggest reason not to go that route if you can get a medical.
You are correct about money. Once involved in flying, over the long run there will be no savings.
I can tell you though, that once the student starts seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, they are motivated to finish. In Sport you see that light much sooner than Private.
If you want to grow the industry, Sport shouldn't be discouraged. If someone walks into a flight school and says they want Sport Pilot it means they have already done some research and made a decision. Why tick a customer off?
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
Much sooner?
Money wise whats a typical 70k plus newer LSA rent for, vs a standard issue 15-25k C150?
There's one primary advantage to Sport Pilot: You don't need to get a medical.
All of the other advantages that people cite are negligible or misguided. They're an attempt to justify the usefulness of the rating.
Instructors discourage sport pilot because anyone who can easily get a medical that still chooses to get SP instead of PP has most likely read bad information, or doesn't understand it. There are a few use cases where SP makes sense, but they're the exception.
Instructors are used to informing and guiding potential pilots, as many people that show up are full of misinformation and assumptions. It's a big part of our job. Believe it or not, most of us care enough about our students to try to make sure they know what they're getting in to.
No, it doesn't. Not even close.
All of the other advantages that people cite are negligible or misguided. They're an attempt to justify the usefulness of the rating.
Instructors discourage sport pilot because anyone who can easily get a medical that still chooses to get SP instead of PP has most likely read bad information, or doesn't understand it. There are a few use cases where SP makes sense, but they're the exception.
Instructors are used to informing and guiding potential pilots, as many people that show up are full of misinformation and assumptions. It's a big part of our job. Believe it or not, most of us care enough about our students to try to make sure they know what they're getting in to.
No, it doesn't. Not even close.
Last edited:
It really depends on how much time and resource you dedicate to training. A person flying 5-6 hours a week will be at 25hrs in 4-5 weeks, 40hrs in 7-8weeks. If that differential is enough to make a difference in ones determination to finish, ok.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
I'm only familiar with my area. LSA $105-125, C150 no clue, since I know of none for rent currently. Occasionally a C150 will pop up on someone's line then disappear.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
No, it doesn't. Not even close.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it does, the fact that he even knows what Sport is , is an indication they have done some research.
If a flight school has a LSA and holds itself out as offering ratings from Sport thru ATP ,and a customer walks in and says they want one the ratings offered , that is a guaranteed sale.
If a customer wants what is offered you say great, sell them the books and sign them up. If you try to talk them out of Sport for Private they may not only be insulted but think you are doing a bait and switch.
Some CFI's are really good at killing business.
Yeah it does, the fact that he even knows what Sport is , is an indication they have done some research.
If a flight school has a LSA and holds itself out as offering ratings from Sport thru ATP ,and a customer walks in and says they want one the ratings offered , that is a guaranteed sale.
If a customer wants what is offered you say great, sell them the books and sign them up. If you try to talk them out of Sport for Private they may not only be insulted but think you are doing a bait and switch.
Some CFI's are really good at killing business.
I'm sorry, but you're absolutely wrong about this.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
No problem. These forums are just a substitute for the local Diner hangout . I'm not going to get too wrapped up about what anybody says about anything.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
I agree with you 100 percent. If I were a qualified instructor , I would carefully explain the advantage of a private license compared to a sport. There is no comparison and the sport limits the person to a much more constrained type of flying. Why would any person, young or old, in good health , not want to have a PPL? Going from a Stearman and mooney to a taylorcraft , having to fly light sport sure wasn't much fun, that's for sure.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
See what I mean about how a CFI can kill business for a school. If a school offers Sport, and a potential customer wants it, give them what they want. The school is offering it after all.
What business does an employee have telling a customer not to take what his employer is offering.
A185F amphibian, with robertson STOL, which is the only reason I can claim the stall win
I'll hand it to the J230/430, very impressive numbers! Also sure beats my fuel burn.
Ooohh a ringer. Nice plane. My A&P takes care of one. Have to use a scaffold to work on things.
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
The CFI has the responsibility to carefully explain both licenses and their pros and cons. Then if the student decides on a sport license so be it. To not explain the two in their entirety I think would be a disservice . " see what I mean?"
"
Well, it's a double edged sword in more ways than one. Pilots are cheap, and there will be those that upgrade, see the difference in cost of upgrade vs just doing PP right away and start badmouthing you for milking them for money.
There is nothing wrong with offering SP for and to those where SP is the best option, that is those that can't attain a medical simply. I think it's proper that the salesman discusses the available products and help the customer select the best value for them. If that is SP, so be it, if that is PP, so be that. The owner really doesn't care since both can be offered in the same plane if selected properly, and the rates are the same either way.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
If a customer is unsure of what they want and asks you for an opinion, by all means go ahead. But if they state they want Sport, just say great, you have no responsibility at all.
If you worked at a Sub shop and a customer orders a meatball sub with extra cheese, do you say " Oh, a turkey sub has less calories , is better for your health, blah blah." The guy is liable to walk out. The sub shop business is going to suffer. If you can't in good conscience sell a meatball sub, work somewhere else.
The solo requirements for Sport are the exact same as Private, at least hold your conscience at bay until they have soloed, they can always switch to Private.
vintage cessna
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,076
- Display Name
Display name:
retro
The owner cares becuase of what other people have said in this thread . They told them what they want, but were discouraged by employees and now feel insulted. Not a good way to run a business.