Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot

vintage cessna said:
The owner cares becuase of what other people have said in this thread . They told what they want, but were discouraged by employees and now feel insulted. Not a good way to run a business.
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Maybe, maybe not. It's still simple enough to just say, "I can't do PP because I can't get a medical." which ends the entire discussion and SP training starts.
 
vintage cessna said:
If a customer is unsure of what they want and asks you for an opinion, by all means go ahead. But if they state they want Sport, just say great, you have no responsibility at all.

If you worked at a Sub shop and a customer orders a meatball sub with extra cheese, do you say " Oh, a turkey sub has less calories , is better for your health, blah blah." The guy is liable to walk out. The sub shop business is going to suffer. If you can't in good conscience sell a meatball sub, work somewhere else.

The solo requirements for Sport are the exact same as Private, at least hold your conscience at bay until they have soloed, they can always switch to Private.
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What a stupid analogy! Has nothing to do with a student who wants to learn to fly and has no idea of what various licenses training entails.
 
vintage cessna said:
If a customer is unsure of what they want and asks you for an opinion, by all means go ahead. But if they state they want Sport, just say great, you have no responsibility at all.

If you worked at a Sub shop and a customer orders a meatball sub with extra cheese, do you say " Oh, a turkey sub has less calories , is better for your health, blah blah." The guy is liable to walk out. The sub shop business is going to suffer. If you can't in good conscience sell a meatball sub, work somewhere else.

The solo requirements for Sport are the exact same as Private, at least hold your conscience at bay until they have soloed, they can always switch to Private.
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Numerous times a sub shop has offered me more at a better deal and I've taken them up on it.
 
Henning said:
Well, it's a double edged sword in more ways than one. Pilots are cheap, and there will be those that upgrade, see the difference in cost of upgrade vs just doing PP right away and start badmouthing you for milking them for money.

There is nothing wrong with offering SP for and to those where SP is the best option, that is those that can't attain a medical simply. I think it's proper that the salesman discusses the available products and help the customer select the best value for them. If that is SP, so be it, if that is PP, so be that. The owner really doesn't care since both can be offered in the same plane if selected properly, and the rates are the same either way.
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If a customer walks in and says "I want Sport" what kind of salesman jepordizes a guaranteed sale?

If I walk into a car dealer and say "I want this model" and the salesman starts showing me other models I'm walking out.
 
vintage cessna said:
If a customer walks in and says "I want Sport" what kind of salesman jepordizes a guaranteed sale?

If I walk into a car dealer and say "I want this model" and the salesman starts showing me other models I'm walking out.
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The salesman isn't doing his job if he doesn't at least listen to your desires and try to upscale you if appropriate.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
What a stupid analogy! Has nothing to do with a student who wants to learn to fly and has no idea of what various licenses training entails.
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This thread is not about people who don't know what they want, is it?
 
bartmc said:
The salesman isn't doing his job if he doesn't at least listen to your desires and try to upscale you if appropriate.
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His job is to make money and he lost mine. My stated desire was to buy a particular model.
 
Henning said:
Maybe, maybe not. It's still simple enough to just say, "I can't do PP because I can't get a medical." which ends the entire discussion and SP training starts.
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Right, put the onus on the customer to end a conversation they don't want to have.
 
You're being unreasonable.

Nearly all potential students appreciate the information and aren't fragile enough to be offended by someone trying to help them make a good decision.
 
vintage cessna said:
His job is to make money and he lost mine. My stated desire was to buy a particular model.
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My wife decided to buy a new car. A year ago. Her girlfriend told her to buy a smaller lexus 250. She went to the dealer and stated this is what she wanted and the salesman asked, " what are you driving now" ? she answered a 350ES. He said, " let me show you, right here on the show room floor a 250 and you can sit in it. She did so and quickly said," I don't like it show me a new 350. She bought it. Sort of like starting college and not being told the choices you may select and being told they only teach history. If a physical is not the problem, a sport pilot license is very limiting so why would one chose it unless given poor input by someone.
 
OverTQ said:
You're being unreasonable.

Nearly all potential students appreciate the information and aren't fragile enough to be offended by someone trying to help them make a good decision.
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No, I'm not. The customer already made the decision. I've watched CFI's kill more business than you can shake a stick at. Some of them are GD know it alls that chase people away.

It is a pretty simple concept. A business offers something for sale, a customer says they want it, ring the cash register.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
My wife decided to buy a new car. A year ago. Her girlfriend told her to buy a smaller lexus 250. She went to the dealer and stated this is what she wanted and the salesman asked, " what are you driving now" ? she answered a 350ES. He said, " let me show you, right here on the show room floor a 250 and you can sit in it. She did so and quickly said," I don't like it show me a new 350. She bought it. Sort of like starting college and not being told the choices you may select and being told they only teach history. If a physical is not the problem, a sport pilot license is very limiting so why would one chose it unless given poor input by someone.
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I know some very intelligent people, with no medical issues that chose Sport for their own reasons and rationale .I'm not going to debate with them and tell them they are stupid.
 
vintage cessna said:
I know some very intelligent people, with no medical issues that chose Sport for their own reasons and rationale .I'm not going to debate with them and tell them they are stupid.
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Ahhhh, but you only now revealed that They were intelligent and well versed on the pros and cons themselves. I also agree that you would not want to call them stupid but if they were uninformed , you yourself would be stupid not to explain their prerogatives so they could make an informed choice. Often people base choices on poor information they have received and waste time and money. I appreciate the fact that the salesman ( who's been there these many years and has an excellent knowledge of his product) took the time to let my wife make an educated decision after she was given the facts. ( she's a retired school principal , taught for thirty years, and not slow on the uptake)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Ahhhh, but you only now revealed that They were intelligent and well versed on the pros and cons themselves. I also agree that you would not want to call them stupid but if they were uninformed , you yourself would be stupid not to explain their prerogatives so they could make an informed choice. Often people base choices on poor information they have received and waste time and money. I appreciate the fact that the salesman ( who's been there these many years and has an excellent knowledge of his product) took the time to let my wife make an educated decision after she was given the facts. ( she's a retired school principal , taught for thirty years, and not slow on the uptake)
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The Internet has made it easy to be a well informed consumer. My experience is that the people who go into a flight school and say they want Sport are not doing it on a whim, they know what they want. You may see other reasons to choose Private and try to convince them of that, but it is counter productive.

Go back to the first post that started this thread. They guy knew what he wanted, was talked out of it by a CFI and is now unhappy. Not everyone is the same, and for some Sport is all they want, at least at that time. If a customer is wishy washy, or unsure, that is one thing. Otherwise, give them what they want.
 
I doubt I'll add anything new to the discussion, except the perspective of someone who's actually pursuing the SPL, but here goes: I think there's room for some education and discussion on BOTH sides. Instructors need to listen more, and prospective students also MUST be prepared to do the same. Here's my rationale:

1. The prospective pilot who's looking at an SPL as a cheap way to get into flying is very likely going to be disappointed. Let me start off by saying that I would be working on my PPL if I knew I'd be able to get a medical without having to negotiate an expensive and risky (from the perspective of being able to fly at all) incarnation of the special issuance process, so I'm not choosing this based on cost. And, partly because I'm in crowded airspace and also because I'd like to switch over if Congress actually pays attention to medical reform long enough to pass it, I knew going in that I'd be putting in extra hours.

That being said, basic piloting skills are NOT easy to master in an LSA. I've read the replies here from instructors who have their students passing their checkrides at 25 or 28 hours. I didn't even do my first solo until about 23-24 hours, and I came in already having passed the written test. I've been told that the CTSW I fly isn't the most stable airplane ever built, but any LSA is going to get blown around in crosswinds and feel more turbulence on a bumpy day. The pilot, therefore, will have to have even *more* sensitive stick-and-rudder discipline (and tolerance for the bumps) than the folks who learn on 172s. That takes time and patience, and if you can't come in to aviation understanding that it takes as long as it takes and for you, it might take longer for some reason you haven't experienced yet... this is NOT the hobby for you.

2. My first point is kind of a lead in for my second, and that is a prospective student pilot needs to find a CFI they feel they can trust, and then they need to actually DO that. As the customer, if you feel you're being diverted into something you don't need because the guy selling it is too locked-in to their business model, then by all means you should walk. But do take a moment to hear them out--a SPL is a huge limitation on your freedom to fly, and the cost/time savings might be negligible (or negative, if you train with a Sport CFI and hope to transition). More importantly, it's a pespective thing: you have to accept that once you're in training, you do NOT call the shots. You need to know your stuff, but you'd better be prepared to take direction and limits from your CFI. And since it's not unusual for that CFI to be way younger than the student, you really can't go into this with the attitude of "the customer is always right." I'm a big fan of reality (and, yes, I do my own research), but when it comes to flying, I trust my CFI implicitly. If you can't, don't fly with him/her.

3. I really wish more flight schools and CFIs understood the need for the SPC and why we pursue it. If you're a youngster building time toward your ATP, it's easy to hate on anything that bumps around the sky at 90kts. But for those of us who fly these, it's because we can't NOT fly... and ultimately, landing that Cub on a dirt/grass field (which is what I aspire to) can't be much less fun than flying regional jets on autopilot most of the time, and both deserve to be taken seriously.

Hope you have your cert soon, and safe flying... :D
 
vintage cessna said:
If a customer walks in and says "I want Sport" what kind of salesman jepordizes a guaranteed sale?

If I walk into a car dealer and say "I want this model" and the salesman starts showing me other models I'm walking out.
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Your prerogative, but walking out doesn't get you what you want. If you are so self assured, you don't need lessons, just go fly 103.

It's a "human factors" test as much as anything. If you are not willing to listen to a question, think about the various options, and make a "best case" determination, then that's indicative of future problems and liability assumed by the instructor/school. If you are unable to simply come forward and say, "I can't get a medical"; again, indicative of greater issues that can cause future liability. Last thing an instructor needs is a student who already knows everything, and has to keep secrets from you.

Ego has no place in aviation. In the battle of wills, aviation always wins.

As far as cars go, I often have steered someone away from buying a car that was a poor choice for them, actually my first sale was that.
 
bartmc said:
The salesman isn't doing his job if he doesn't at least listen to your desires and try to upscale you if appropriate.
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I'm a instructor before I'm a sales person when it comes to CFIing.

First role is to educate the prospective student, in this case give them all the facts, pros and cons, price differences (which often is to the advantage of a PPL) and let them make their call. Most folks want a teacher type to get them their wings, not a salesman.

If I were to play sales first I'd have soloed a ton of people in 182s, G1000 172s and other expensive nonsense for ab initio folks.
 
But, the student had made up his mind what he wanted, the operator refused him and didn't even say it was an insurance requirement. He's not talking about a discussion of the pros and cons. It was a downright refusal to take on a student without a medical.

Why?
 
James331 said:
I'm a instructor before I'm a sales person when it comes to CFIing.

First role is to educate the prospective student, in this case give them all the facts, pros and cons, price differences (which often is to the advantage of a PPL) and let them make their call. Most folks want a teacher type to get them their wings, not a salesman.

If I were to play sales first I'd have soloed a ton of people in 182s, G1000 172s and other expensive nonsense for ab initio folks.
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You are acting as a salesman the entire time. "Salesman" doesn't have to carry a negative connotation. Finding out what the customer needs is part of the job done right. A good salesman gets repeat business because they give the customer a good value for the customer. A "bad" salesman will sell the package with the highest commission regardless the customer's needs.
 
For the CFI's that will do both Sport and standard PPL. If you have a student that has no personal obstacles to getting a PPL, do you fully explain what the differences are between the two standards? If said student asks which way they should go, what do you tell them?
 
drotto said:
For the CFI's that will do both Sport and standard PPL. If you have a student that has no personal obstacles to getting a PPL, do you fully explain what the differences are between the two standards? If said student asks which way they should go, what do you tell them?
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If their exposure to aviation is limited by what is available to rent, how do you see the ability of an SP to exercise their privileges stacked up to a PP?

That is the over riding issue I would want them to get across. My ability to find a 172 around the world to rent, and to be able to fly it presenting my FAA PPL or higher certificate, is nearly ubiquitous. The number of rental LSAs is much more limited.

The people who should get an SP certificate and training are those it was intended for when written: The people operating 2 seat "Fat Ultralights" that used to do it by abusing exemptions under Pt 103. SP was never meant to be a reduction in competency for anyone. The whole concept of taking the limitations of the SP just because I didn't feel like learning something or taking some training, it leaves me a bit befuddled. I hate to say it straight up, but if someone thinks like that they should probably not be in aviation taking up passengers. Just go get an ultralight and go fly.
 
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Access to licensed flight can be sooner with SPL than it is with PPL...it's that simple.

SP is, by no means a "reduction in competency" for me. My goal is to train until I'm comfortable with the skills I need to fly safely. That's more about the skill than it is about the rating. Besides, even if I had a PPL, I'm no more equipped to fly a Flybaby, Carlson Sparrow, Onex or whatever I ultimately decide to own. If I wanted to haul passengers, then I would be training in a plane that could haul passengers. I'm not interested in that.

I've heard people refer to the PPL as the "license to learn" because the minimum requirements do very little to prepare Pilots for night or instrument flying. That's why "current" Pilots find themselves flying VFR into IMC, or making mistakes at night all the time. Sport Pilot is also a "license to learn" and shouldn't be discouraged.

The value in becoming a competent Pilot for me is in the personal required hours to do so. I met a 19 year old kid that soloed the Cherokee I trained in at 8 hours. That's not the average, but some students will get there sooner than others.

If only the third class medical was done away with(doubtful) or the Sport Pilot definition was expanded(doubtful) to include what the aviation population already considers "entry level" aircraft(Cessna 150/152 & 172, Cherokee 140), then I could train locally. As Henning points out, the limited availability of LSAs is my issue.
 
valittu said:
I've heard people refer to the PPL as the "license to learn" because the minimum requirements do very little to prepare Pilots for night or instrument flying. That's why "current" Pilots find themselves flying VFR into IMC, or making mistakes at night all the time.
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That's not accurate, and PPLs aren't making mistakes and going IIMC "all the time" ether.

I consider my ATP a license to learn as well.
 
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valittu said:
Access to licensed flight can be sooner with SPL than it is with PPL...it's that simple.

SP is, by no means a "reduction in competency" for me. My goal is to train until I'm comfortable with the skills I need to fly safely. That's more about the skill than it is about the rating. Besides, even if I had a PPL, I'm no more equipped to fly a Flybaby, Carlson Sparrow, Onex or whatever I ultimately decide to own. If I wanted to haul passengers, then I would be training in a plane that could haul passengers. I'm not interested in that.

I've heard people refer to the PPL as the "license to learn" because the minimum requirements do very little to prepare Pilots for night or instrument flying. That's why "current" Pilots find themselves flying VFR into IMC, or making mistakes at night all the time. Sport Pilot is also a "license to learn" and shouldn't be discouraged.

The value in becoming a competent Pilot for me is in the personal required hours to do so. I met a 19 year old kid that soloed the Cherokee I trained in at 8 hours. That's not the average, but some students will get there sooner than others.

If only the third class medical was done away with(doubtful) or the Sport Pilot definition was expanded(doubtful) to include what the aviation population already considers "entry level" aircraft(Cessna 150/152 & 172, Cherokee 140), then I could train locally. As Henning points out, the limited availability of LSAs is my issue.
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If you are owning a plane that can be flown on an SP, the equation changes, but not entirely. Many times on vacation I have rented a plane to take people flying. That brought a lot of usefulness to my money spent getting rated. If all a person wants is to fly themselves around, a Pt 103 ultralight has no training or cert requirements and is a ton of fun. Doing a X/C in one is not much different from a Flybaby or any of that genre that can be flown on SP. It's also the least expensive way to get into aviation.
 
James331 said:
That's not accurate, and PPLs aren't making mistakes and going IIMC "all the time" ether.

I consider my ATP a license to learn as well.
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My point was that unprepared or under prepared Pilots, no matter what their rating, often find themselves "behind the plane".
 
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