Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot

[QuiQuog]

So if one of the stated reasons for the sport pilot category is to increase interest in general aviation by encouraging people to get into flying by costing less up front, taking roughly half the training time and not having to bother with a medical, why does it seem that instructors are always trying to talk me into private pilot? Ive talked to a few flight instructors about flight training for a sport pilot certificate and they all question why I want to do that. They state the same reasons that I've read all over this and other boards; It doesn't take that much more training/time/money/skill; if you're healthy then why not get the medical; you'll be limiting yourself to small planes; blah, blah blah. And all the others, you've all heard all the different reasons.

My cynical gut tells me that it's because they want a student who will take longer to train so they will keep getting a paycheck. I got that feeling when I asked about getting sport pilot training in a tailwheel so that I wouldn't have to do it separately later. I was told that it wouldn't be wise to put a new student in a tailwheel because they were so much harder to control on the ground. Better to get used to flying first. The thing was that they only had tailwheel sport planes. Like it was tailor made to upsell students to ppl.

So now I'm 20 hours into my PPL and I'm realizing that I would be close to completing my sport training, but I'm not even half way through private yet. It's frustrating that the lures that brought me into flying were snatched away like a cheap bait and switch. I really want to be flying and exploring the skies, getting my kids excited about flying and increasing GA's numbers. Instead I'm slogging around in the training area. I think that the GA community should forget about trying to upsell everyone to private and focus on sport pilot for what it was intended to be. A cheaper, faster, easier way to get people into the air. Once they're in the community they can pursue more ratings as they desire.

Just one pilot in the light sport category will expose gobs of others to GA, either by giving rides, talking about it at a poker game, hauling a foldable wing airplane down the street, etc... Washing a plane in the driveway will draw a billion more glances than waxing a boat. Once they hear how easy, inexpensive and fun it is, they may just trade in their Harley jacket for a headset. And there's no substitute for having the kids want to follow in daddy's footsteps.

So why discourage that?

 

[Skylane81E]

Because in reality the difference is about 6 hours of instruction, so if you can pass the medical why not get the PPL, you can always fly LSAs

 

[tonycondon]

the purpose of the sport pilot rule was to force fat ultralights into the regulatory realm. anything else you've read is marketing.

we didn't push sport pilot where i worked because we didn't have a LSA compliant plane. we don't even mention sport pilot glider options because its a complete waste and joke.

 

[poadeleted20]

So if one of the stated reasons for the sport pilot category is to increase interest in general aviation by encouraging people to get into flying by costing less up front, taking roughly half the training time

That's the first misapprehension. While the regulations suggest this is possible, it really isn't. Yes, you can do it with significantly less time, but half? No.

and not having to bother with a medical, why does it seem that instructors are always trying to talk me into private pilot?

Well, you haven't talked with me. Of course, I'd certainly want to be sure you were making an informed decision, but if you knew all the facts and made the choice, I'd be happy to go the Sport Pilot route with you.

My cynical gut tells me that it's because they want a student who will take longer to train so they will keep getting a paycheck.

That is entirely possible with some of the young time-builders, but not with old folks like me who aren't in it as a full-time job or for the flight time.

So now I'm 20 hours into my PPL and I'm realizing that I would be close to completing my sport training, but I'm not even half way through private yet.

I'm wondering if you're really as close as you think to having Sport Pilot completed, but I'd have to look at your logbook and fly with you to know for sure.

That said, if the folks at that flight school aren't listening to you, then you should probably take your business to one where they will. But first, you might talk this over with the Chief Instructor, General Manager, or owner of the school where you're training. Give them a chance to make it right with you. And if they don't, then say "sayonara" and find a better-managed school.

 

[maddog52]

Because in reality the difference is about 6 hours of instruction, so if you can pass the medical why not get the PPL, you can always fly LSAs

Funny, average hours for our students is around 30 for SP and 50+ for PP.

 

[maddog52]

A vast majority of my current instruction is SP but I don't do it full time. The school on our field that does SP has more students than the other two schools combined. You need to shop around. In my experience, most CFI's that discourage SP do it for the same reason they won't teach in a conventional aircraft, they have no experience of either and won't think outside the box.

 

[tinerj]

The CFIs need additional training for being a Sport Pilot instructor. And, the hours doing SP training are not as popular for counting toward that coveted airline job.

SP is the way to go for anyone who merely wants to learn how to fly. The PPL can come later.

Don't buy into the idea that SP takes as long as PPL. We have a Sport Pilot CFI who can get a person flying in about two weeks.

 

[gprellwitz]

The CFIs need additional training for being a Sport Pilot instructor. And, the hours doing SP training are not as popular for counting toward that coveted airline job.

SP is the way to go for anyone who merely wants to learn how to fly. The PPL can come later.

Don't buy into the idea that SP takes as long as PPL. We have a Sport Pilot CFI who can get a person flying in about two weeks.

I think part of it may be that people may be trying to give the OP flexibility. One way to do that would be to do the initial training in an LSA, but from a "full" CFI. For some reason, the FAA has interpreted their rules as saying that instruction given by a sport pilot CFI cannot be used toward a private pilot certificate.

Another reason may be due to limitations of the CFI or available DPEs. Either the CFIs may not have the requisite tail wheel experience (since the OPs school only has tail wheel LSAs) or they (or the available DPEs) may not be able to fit in the LSA with the student and enough fuel to be useful.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It isn't upselling so much as ego investment. I carried buckets of propwash around the airport for five years before I had any fun in a plane so I decree the same fate to all those who behind me.
You will get the same buying airplanes or cars. For only 1K more I can get the GT-X model with the extra large spoiler and leather wrapped shifter knob, so everything else cheaper I could drive 6 miles to work in is junk.
Besides if you don't get the PPL you won't be able to fly to Mexico at night on a whim, all of us with the PPL, we do that all the time/sarcasm.
Cue the ego invested haters

 

[Aviatrix]

I did ask people's opinions on Sport vs. PPL on here and definitely got bombarded with many strong opinions. I'm still not sure which I want but my reasons for flying are similar to yours, just for fun, which is why I was thinking about Sport.

It was a struggle at my flight school to even get up in their Sport plane. I think I'm FINALLY going up in it on Friday and hopefully that will help make my decision. But I've had to ask them about it every single time I call or am there, my instructor wasn't checked out but she had to cancel so they are putting me with one that is. At least I've asked so much that they know and mentioned it when I called without me prompting.

 

[rrmkru]

It also depends on your area. Around here its very hard to find an LSA to fly so why limit yourself to just that type of airplane?

 

[poadeleted21]

It isn't upselling so much as ego investment. I carried buckets of propwash around the airport for five years before I had any fun in a plane so I decree the same fate to all those who behind me.
You will get the same buying airplanes or cars. For only 1K more I can get the GT-X model with the extra large spoiler and leather wrapped shifter knob, so everything else cheaper I could drive 6 miles to work in is junk.
Besides if you don't get the PPL you won't be able to fly to Mexico at night on a whim, all of us with the PPL, we do that all the time/sarcasm.
Cue the ego invested haters

You really want to do this again?

 

[ClimbnSink]

You really want to do this again?

I'd rather bash the gov't for taking a guys helicopter, taking a man's helicopter is never cool. But no one wants to play.

 

[Geico266]

A vast majority of my current instruction is SP but I don't do it full time. The school on our field that does SP has more students than the other two schools combined. You need to shop around. In my experience, most CFI's that discourage SP do it for the same reason they won't teach in a conventional aircraft, they have no experience of either and won't think outside the box.

Seems right to me.

 

[poadeleted21]

I'd rather bash the gov't for taking a guys helicopter, taking a man's helicopter is never cool. But no one wants to play.

He wouldn't be able to fly that R44 if all he had was An SPL, so it's his fault.

 

[1600vw]

It depends on your "Mission"

My "Mission" is Patch flying, or local flying. I doubt I will ever fly over 80 miles from my home unless I fly to OshKosh someday.

So define your Mission for flying.

You need 20 hrs training before receiving your SP. That is in the Regs.

I see no reason way one can not have this certificate in the alloted 20hrs that the FAA calls out for.

What I see is people wanting to use SP like a PP ticket. They meaning the FAA should never allowed the SP ticket to cover the range of airplanes it does. This certificate came about for those flying illegal ultralights or "Fat Ultralights" and the instructors whom taught ultralight training.

When the FAA wrote the SP regs the way they did they got way away from "ultralight style" flying. Now people want to use this certificate to commute from point A to point B. Ultralight pilots do not fly like this. The mission is different. Its a local for fun type of flying in the early mornings or early evenings.

SP should be for those ultralight style fliers. Weight limit from 254 -700 lbs
Recreational Pilot should be Weight limit 700-1320 lbs.

Fly Smart

 

[ClimbnSink]

Why would anyone ask for lowering the existing limits?

 

[RyanShort1]

I certainly don't, in fact, a LOT of my business is sport pilots. I just had one pass a checkride about three weeks ago at 28 hours - and that was with an aircraft switch. It's completely doable, but if you want to finish with low hours - it takes diligence and study - just like it takes that to finish the PPL in close to minimums.

Ryan

 

[Z06_Mir]

It depends on your "Mission"

My "Mission" is Patch flying, or local flying. I doubt I will ever fly over 80 miles from my home unless I fly to OshKosh someday.

So define your Mission for flying.

You need 20 hrs training before receiving your SP. That is in the Regs.

I see no reason way one can not have this certificate in the alloted 20hrs that the FAA calls out for.

What I see is people wanting to use SP like a PP ticket. They meaning the FAA should never allowed the SP ticket to cover the range of airplanes it does. This certificate came about for those flying illegal ultralights or "Fat Ultralights" and the instructors whom taught ultralight training.

When the FAA wrote the SP regs the way they did they got way away from "ultralight style" flying. Now people want to use this certificate to commute from point A to point B. Ultralight pilots do not fly like this. The mission is different. Its a local for fun type of flying in the early mornings or early evenings.

SP should be for those ultralight style fliers. Weight limit from 254 -700 lbs
Recreational Pilot should be Weight limit 700-1320 lbs.

Fly Smart

If you're not interested in leaving home base, why don't you just go for the recreational certificate? I don't see the point in doing the SPL unless you have a medical condition that prevents (either really prevents the 3rd class or it makes it prohibitively expensive) the PPL. Why do you not want a higher level of training in flight? Maybe one day you'll be out on a moonless night. Maybe even (I hope not!) you accidentally wander into a cloud.. those things can happen to those who do the SPL, but they will be far more up a creek than one with a PPL who went through that extra 6 hours. If you really think you're ready to carry passengers like your wife/husband/children/parents/dog at 20 hours, be my guest. The only dual I regret getting is the dual where I didn't learn anything, and I can safely say that was only about 2 hours out of my 200TT and 100 and change instructional time. And honestly, I did learn that it was time for a new CFI. It's your life up there, is it really worth cheaping out on training?

 

[Geico266]

If you're not interested in leaving home base, why don't you just go for the recreational certificate? I don't see the point in doing the SPL unless you have a medical condition that prevents (either really prevents the 3rd class or it makes it prohibitively expensive) the PPL. Why do you not want a higher level of training in flight? Maybe one day you'll be out on a moonless night. Maybe even (I hope not!) you accidentally wander into a cloud.. those things can happen to those who do the SPL, but they will be far more up a creek than one with a PPL who went through that extra 6 hours. If you really think you're ready to carry passengers like your wife/husband/children/parents/dog at 20 hours, be my guest. The only dual I regret getting is the dual where I didn't learn anything, and I can safely say that was only about 2 hours out of my 200TT and 100 and change instructional time. And honestly, I did learn that it was time for a new CFI. It's your life up there, is it really worth cheaping out on training?

Sport Pilot is day VFR only.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Sport Pilot is day VFR only.

Private Pilots without instrument ratings are also VFR only. That doesn't mean plenty of them haven't had inadvertent IMC encounters. I personally know sport pilots who I've seen return after "civil twilight", and it was borderline dark.

 

[jpower]

You really want to do this again?

May I suggest that anyone who wants to turn this into an argument take a trip to the argument clinic to get it all out? Then you may return hopefully cleansed of your desires.

 

[bbchien]

The CFIs need additional training for being a Sport Pilot instructor.

Untrue, if the LSA has ailerons, elvators and a rudder.

And, the hours doing SP training are not as popular for counting toward that coveted airline job.

Also not ture. They count the same in the CFI's quest for a fat logbook.

SP is the way to go for anyone who merely wants to learn how to fly. The PPL can come later.

Don't buy into the idea that SP takes as long as PPL. We have a Sport Pilot CFI who can get a person flying in about two weeks.

What are you tyring to prove here?

THe real issue is the useful load is too small for two 200 pound guys and a reasonable load of fuel. Look at the size of your average guy....

And the New LSA, when you figure in teh debt service, they don't make a lot of sense. The old Aeroncas, Luscombes, and Ercoupes have been bid up....the market is efficient.

 

[poadeleted20]

You need 20 hrs training before receiving your SP. That is in the Regs. I see no reason way one can not have this certificate in the alloted 20hrs that the FAA calls out for.

After 40 years as a flight instructor, I can see lots of reasons why it doesn't happen that fast. And not too many folks get their PP in 40 hours, either.

 

[LDJones]

Lately I have been spending about half my instructing time in LSAs, although most of my students have opted to go for the PPL but enjoy flying our Jabiru. The reality is, while the FAA may allow a license in fewer total hours, it still takes a certain amount of time to master the even the basic skills for consistently operating it in a safe manner. I've also found that our Jabiru is much more demanding of good stick and rudder skills than a C-150 of our Cherokee 140. While ultimately that is a positive thing (our Jabiru pilots KNOW how to use a rudder!), it adds to the hours required to master it.

So, while in theory it takes fewer hours, the delta between the two is smaller than you might think. But I'm happy to train any student for whatever level of certification they desire, and have never tried to upsell. I enjoy flying both types equally.

 

[LDJones]

THe real issue is the useful load is too small for two 200 pound guys and a reasonable load of fuel. Look at the size of your average guy....

You're definitely right on that score, Doc. We only fill our LSA to half-tanks since I haven't figured out how to leave half of me on the ground!

 

[BillTIZ]

we don't even mention sport pilot glider options because its a complete waste and joke.

agreed, limited to certain gliders, speeds, and to stay below 10,000MSL

, not out here!

 

[BillTIZ]

The CFIs need additional training for being a Sport Pilot instructor.

Did I miss something? I thought any CFI can instruct to the sport pilot level.
What extra training is required?

 

[1600vw]

If you're not interested in leaving home base, why don't you just go for the recreational certificate? I don't see the point in doing the SPL unless you have a medical condition that prevents (either really prevents the 3rd class or it makes it prohibitively expensive) the PPL. Why do you not want a higher level of training in flight? Maybe one day you'll be out on a moonless night. Maybe even (I hope not!) you accidentally wander into a cloud.. those things can happen to those who do the SPL, but they will be far more up a creek than one with a PPL who went through that extra 6 hours. If you really think you're ready to carry passengers like your wife/husband/children/parents/dog at 20 hours, be my guest. The only dual I regret getting is the dual where I didn't learn anything, and I can safely say that was only about 2 hours out of my 200TT and 100 and change instructional time. And honestly, I did learn that it was time for a new CFI. It's your life up there, is it really worth cheaping out on training?

SP does not fly at night. We do not fly any where near clouds. And just what makes you think someone at 40 hrs is safe to fly a passenger, or say 80 hrs. This is a subject all on its own. Some believe the day you get your PPL or any certificate you can fly anyone anywhere at anytime in any weather. I do not think that way, you do what you want.

When I speak of ultralight style flying I speak of single seaters. This is my "Mission" Single seat nothing else ever. I tell those whom ask for a ride, go take lessons, buy an airplane and fly yourself.

SP should be single seat. Rec. or something else should be for passengers. Just the way I see it.

But the type of flying you do and the type of certificate you need is all about your mission.

 

[LDJones]

Did I miss something? I thought any CFI can instruct to the sport pilot level.
What extra training is required?

You are correct. A CFI with ASEL can instruct in an LSA for the SP license.

 

[SportPilotCO]

There was a thread a couple weeks ago about a lady trying to decide between SP and PP. It turned into a quite long thread of opinion on the subject. You might want to look at that thread as well.

As a sport pilot who trained in a LSA only school in Denver at APA, I offer a few comments.

First off.. my instructor was a CFII with extensive experience in non-LSA's but also a ton of experience in training in LSA's. For me this made me feel much more comfortable. The other factor that was nice was the school was LSA only so there was no pressure to sell PP. They did PP training and we had quite a few check rides of PP folks in our LSA's. They have since merged with a traditional flying club and offer a huge fleet of LSA and non-LSA aircraft. The LSA's continue to be very popular rentals, even for PP's.

I fly long cross countries with my LSA. As we discussed in the other thread it is all up to your mission and desires in the planes you fly. For me, I love the LSA. I really like being a SP and it drives me nuts when I hear about schools who downplay SP as a viable option.

Carl

 

[jpower]

THe real issue is the useful load is too small for two 200 pound guys and a reasonable load of fuel. Look at the size of your average guy....

I don't buy this argument. Sure, some LSAs are severely weight-limited, like the Skycatcher. Half tanks and two normal sized people is about all you can get in it, I think (possibly untrue...I have a whopping 0.6 hrs in one, never looked at the w/b). However, the Tecnam Eaglet I fly does fine with two 200 pound guys.

Gross - empty - full fuel = two 200 pound guys plus some change
1320 - 760 - 6 * 24 = 415

From what I understand, the Remos is even better on useful load. Maybe almost 100 pounds better? That airframe is pretty light. And there are more.

 

[bnt83]

I don't buy this argument. Sure, some LSAs are severely weight-limited, like the Skycatcher. Half tanks and two normal sized people is about all you can get in it, I think (possibly untrue...I have a whopping 0.6 hrs in one, never looked at the w/b). However, the Tecnam Eaglet I fly does fine with two 200 pound guys.

Gross - empty - full fuel = two 200 pound guys plus some change
1320 - 760 - 6 * 24 = 415

From what I understand, the Remos is even better on useful load. Maybe almost 100 pounds better? That airframe is pretty light. And there are more.

skycatcher isn't doing too hot in service either. First wing spar cracking and now engine mounts. When I flew one, it sure felt like the airplane gets beat up by the engine vibrations at startup & shutdown.

 

[LDJones]

I don't buy this argument. Sure, some LSAs are severely weight-limited, like the Skycatcher. Half tanks and two normal sized people is about all you can get in it, I think (possibly untrue...I have a whopping 0.6 hrs in one, never looked at the w/b). However, the Tecnam Eaglet I fly does fine with two 200 pound guys.

Gross - empty - full fuel = two 200 pound guys plus some change
1320 - 760 - 6 * 24 = 415

From what I understand, the Remos is even better on useful load. Maybe almost 100 pounds better? That airframe is pretty light. And there are more.

It depends on the fuel capacity. Our Jabiru can haul 36 gallons (burning 4 or less per hour...so really long legs!) I'm on the heavy side of average and one of my students is bigger than me, so we limit it to 18 gal. which puts us a couple of pounds under max gross.

 

[Z06_Mir]

SP does not fly at night. We do not fly any where near clouds. And just what makes you think someone at 40 hrs is safe to fly a passenger, or say 80 hrs. This is a subject all on its own. Some believe the day you get your PPL or any certificate you can fly anyone anywhere at anytime in any weather. I do not think that way, you do what you want.

OK, so you're telling me that PPLs who aren't supposed to fly near clouds don't sometimes? Then why are there accidents that involve encounters in IMC? The facts talk. And an SPL is going to have LESS training in those screw up situations than a PPL. There is a reason that there is the required 3 hours of hood time for the PPL.

When I speak of ultralight style flying I speak of single seaters. This is my "Mission" Single seat nothing else ever. I tell those whom ask for a ride, go take lessons, buy an airplane and fly yourself.

That's a really great way to keep GA alive

 

[jpower]

It depends on the fuel capacity. Our Jabiru can haul 36 gallons (burning 4 or less per hour...so really long legs!) I'm on the heavy side of average and one of my students is bigger than me, so we limit it to 18 gal. which puts us a couple of pounds under max gross.

That's a lotta gallons for 4 gallons per hour! We default our Eaglets to 18 gallons too, but I usually top the tanks off before I go if I'm going to do anything more than buzz around the pattern. It's really hard for me to go over gross, and it means I probably don't have to fill up when I'm done .

Edit: I promise I can spell the word "pattern." Promise.

 

[LDJones]

That's a lotta gallons for 4 gallons per hour! We default our Eaglets to 18 gallons too, but I usually top the tanks off before I go if I'm going to do anything more than buzz around the patter. It's really hard for me to go over gross, and it means I probably don't have to fill up when I'm done .

One of these day's I'm going to load her up, bring along some empty Gatorade bottles and do a MN to TX run non-stop just because I can!

 

[ClimbnSink]

OK, so you're telling me that PPLs who aren't supposed to fly near clouds don't sometimes? Then why are there accidents that involve encounters in IMC? The facts talk. And an SPL is going to have LESS training in those screw up situations than a PPL. There is a reason that there is the required 3 hours of hood time for the PPL.



That's a really great way to keep GA alive

Dude if we train everyone to competency in every possible situation it will take 800 hours to get a ppl. Yes ppl can overfly their ability, as can sp, an airline transport pilots. It is a silly argument without end.

 

[QuiQuog]

A lot of response I've seen are still the discouraging type of responses. "It's not really meant to draw new pilots", "It only take 6 more hours", "If you can pass the medical then why not do it", and on and on. You could argue all day about the real reasons, or the actual difference in training times, or whether medicals are necessary. But the facts are, without even needing to argue the numbers, it's cheaper to get started, it cost less to get started, and you don't need the medical.

LSA interest people who would otherwise not be interested in the time/cost/hassle. I was put off of flying for the cost of training, but when I read about sport pilot I got the bug and started learning more about it. So I don't need a medical, big deal, but that's one less thing to worry about. I can't fly at night, so what, nothing to see. Can't fly in IMC, good, I don't want to put myself in that situation anyway. If my Instructor also instructs ppl, then my time counts toward the ppl if I want to go that route. It's just all full of win.

Others undoubtably have opinions different than mine regarding those subjects, and my own opinions are likely to change as well. I don't understand why some people are so against something that is clearly just another option. Questions that have no right or wrong answer seem to have the most passionate responses. High wing vs low wing, tail dragger vs tricycle, sport vs private, tastes great vs less filling.

The original intent of the question however was to get some insider perspective of how a CFI thinks. Do they discourage SPL because it doesn't take as long? do they want tailwheel training separate so they can squeeze more hours out of a student? When they have lots of openings in the schedule do they putz around and have you repeat things unnecessarily? Obviously not everyone would do that, but maybe you've seen it before

 

[bbchien]

A lot of response I've seen are still the discouraging type of responses. "It's not really meant to draw new pilots", "It only take 6 more hours", "If you can pass the medical then why not do it", and on and on. You could argue all day about the real reasons, or the actual difference in training times, or whether medicals are necessary. But the facts are, without even needing to argue the numbers, it's cheaper to get started, it cost less to get started, and you don't need the medical.

LSA interest people who would otherwise not be interested in the time/cost/hassle. I was put off of flying for the cost of training, but when I read about sport pilot I got the bug and started learning more about it. So I don't need a medical, big deal, but that's one less thing to worry about. I can't fly at night, so what, nothing to see. Can't fly in IMC, good, I don't want to put myself in that situation anyway. If my Instructor also instructs ppl, then my time counts toward the ppl if I want to go that route. It's just all full of win.

Others undoubtably have opinions different than mine regarding those subjects, and my own opinions are likely to change as well. I don't understand why some people are so against something that is clearly just another option. Questions that have no right or wrong answer seem to have the most passionate responses. High wing vs low wing, tail dragger vs tricycle, sport vs private, tastes great vs less filling.

The original intent of the question however was to get some insider perspective of how a CFI thinks. Do they discourage SPL because it doesn't take as long? do they want tailwheel training separate so they can squeeze more hours out of a student? When they have lots of openings in the schedule do they putz around and have you repeat things unnecessarily? Obviously not everyone would do that, but maybe you've seen it before

Never mind the facts! CFIs discourage LSA training!

Never mind that it's 40% of what we do at our base.
CFIs discourage LSA training!
Never mind the reality.

sigh.

So, Hobo Djoe, how much do you weigh? It's relevant!