Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot

[maddog52]

I honestly didn't know it until I started seeing price tags other people paid on here long after I had my PPL in hand.

I saw his info on a corkboard in a convenience store in Philipsburg MT and that was all I knew.

PPL was 10,000 in the tecnam or 12,000 in the G1000 172. It was just a sign on the FBO counter, caught my attention because it was ridiculously high priced. But that's the only place I've ever seen an LSA for rent and I noted that the SPL was nearly double what my PPL was.

http://www.bitterrootaviation.com/ call him. The last time I spoke with him he was planning on setting up a seasonal flight school in Las Vegas for winter. I know he went down there this winter and knocked out a couple of students and scouted the area. He has a 1966 Cessna 150 that he's owned for 30 years (or a /G C172RG if you want to do comm or IR), is an A&P/IA and owns the FBO. it (was 6 months ago) $85 (maybe $90) for the Cessna 150 WET with Instructor or $55 (maybe $60) wet rate solo. I was signing checks for $80/hr for plane + instructor in 2008. Took me approx 50 hrs to get my PPL. He only charges HOBBS time for instruction, i.e. he won't keep you for a 1hr post flight briefing and charge for it. Leather sofas, G1000s and crew cars cost money, guess who's paying for it?

Trying to figure your numbers. 50 hours X $90 + 50X 60 = $7500 minimum for plane and instructor.

 

[poadeleted21]

What are the current rates where you are? 10 years ago when I had my frist attempted I paid 57/hr for a 152 wet and 27/hr for an instructor. (2001-2002)

I know at my last airport that I moved from in late september, $85-$90 would get you 1hr of Cessna 150 time with an instructor, I think $55-60 or so of that was the wet rental rate (my wife was taking lessons). I realize by him owning the plane and being an IA, his costs were low and he loves to fly and makes his money elsewhere. I think he was doing a little better than breaking even. But guess where those pilots he trained brought their planes when they bought em (I'm aware of at least 10 former students that used him as their A&P/IA) I haven't rented a plane in 3 years and I'm working on a deal to trade some time in my bonanza for my IR with a CFII who just moved here to do something other than flight instruct and is currently renting from an FBO when he wants to fly. My wife has arranged to borrow a Cessna 150 (The guy owns 4 planes and lets folks use his old 150 for training) her CFI is part time and only takes on a student or two at a time. As you can see, walking into a busy FBO with leather couches and a fleet of planes isn't something I'm knowledgeable about.

 

[poadeleted21]

Trying to figure your numbers. 50 hours X $90 + 50X 60 = $7500 minimum for plane and instructor.

$90 x 50 = $4500 That's assuming you take 50hrs for PPL and every second of it is dual and that rate is more than I paid (I paid $80 or $85, can't remember exactly, I know he went up 5 bucks/hr when fuel increased on him).

$90 is the DUAL WET rate. Call him. Nice guy. His name's Mark.

 

[Henning]

So if one of the stated reasons for the sport pilot category is to increase interest in general aviation by encouraging people to get into flying by costing less up front, taking roughly half the training time and not having to bother with a medical, why does it seem that instructors are always trying to talk me into private pilot? Ive talked to a few flight instructors about flight training for a sport pilot certificate and they all question why I want to do that. They state the same reasons that I've read all over this and other boards; It doesn't take that much more training/time/money/skill; if you're healthy then why not get the medical; you'll be limiting yourself to small planes; blah, blah blah. And all the others, you've all heard all the different reasons.

My cynical gut tells me that it's because they want a student who will take longer to train so they will keep getting a paycheck. I got that feeling when I asked about getting sport pilot training in a tailwheel so that I wouldn't have to do it separately later. I was told that it wouldn't be wise to put a new student in a tailwheel because they were so much harder to control on the ground. Better to get used to flying first. The thing was that they only had tailwheel sport planes. Like it was tailor made to upsell students to ppl.

So now I'm 20 hours into my PPL and I'm realizing that I would be close to completing my sport training, but I'm not even half way through private yet. It's frustrating that the lures that brought me into flying were snatched away like a cheap bait and switch. I really want to be flying and exploring the skies, getting my kids excited about flying and increasing GA's numbers. Instead I'm slogging around in the training area. I think that the GA community should forget about trying to upsell everyone to private and focus on sport pilot for what it was intended to be. A cheaper, faster, easier way to get people into the air. Once they're in the community they can pursue more ratings as they desire.

Just one pilot in the light sport category will expose gobs of others to GA, either by giving rides, talking about it at a poker game, hauling a foldable wing airplane down the street, etc... Washing a plane in the driveway will draw a billion more glances than waxing a boat. Once they hear how easy, inexpensive and fun it is, they may just trade in their Harley jacket for a headset. And there's no substitute for having the kids want to follow in daddy's footsteps.

So why discourage that?

It will never be inexpensive if you want to do things right, even experimental LS will still be a significant expense unless you go the 'fat ultralight' route, then you can buy in for $5k. You have to like 2 stroke engines though and be familiar with wrenches or you won't have a happy relationship.

I think the place you are dealing with is chicken crap for having TW LSAs and not doing initial in it. The reality is a good instructor can start you on a TW and solo you in the same time as a tricycle and you'd never know that you learned to fly in 'the more difficult' of the two. BTW, that's not really true either, the conventional gear is easier because it allows more options in energy and still have a good landing. Tricycle doesn't allow for a 'wheel landing'.

In the end of it all though, you're better off with a PP than an SP just because you will have a greater idea of what you don't know and where you don't want to go.

 

[dell30rb]

I love cubs, but that CTLS has a 1000 mile range, 550lb useful load, BRS parachute and I believe you can get the Dynon package with 2 axis auto pilot, XM weather and all the electronic flightbag goodness..

The CTLS is very capable for cross country.. a slightly different market than your typical Cub jaunt.

Those numbers are pretty good. Like I said - it is a nice plane. In the cub I have an ipad with foreflight and the ADS-B weather, also have a nice $50 RAM yoke mount that fits perfectly in the cub. But - I don't even remotely need all of that stuff because all I do is fly day VFR.

I think I would try to convince someone to obtain the PP rating instead of SPL if they had no issues with the medical. Not being able to fly at night restricts a lot of utility. Great - the airplane has a 1000 mile range. But i'm limited to getting up early on saturday and flying places. If I get stuck somewhere and it gets dark while a random line of storms pass, I have to get a hotel room. No friday night flights to weekend destinations with the sun setting during the trip.

 

[SportPilotCO]

I agree with the requirements for day VFR, but and this is a big but.. those are minimal requirements for day VFR. When I fly my LSA from Colorado to Florida it sure is nice to have the Garmin 796 with weather in the cockpit. I know some folks argue cost. The 796 was $2500 and couple hundred dollars to get installed. Do I rely solely on that?.. no! I look outside the plane and I talk to Flight Watch. Having XM radio in flight is also very nice to have on long cross countries. The ability to have up to date charts as the basis for the moving map is also very nice. I carry a backup set of charts on my iPad.

I know we will agree to disagree but I don't think that having more tools in your toolbox, especially for long cross countries (and yes you really can do them in LSA's as I have and do).

Carl

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The Liberty XL and Diamond DA20, Alarus etc.. don't approach that price, they're certified, comparable price to a 162 and are more capable planes. A new 172 is $275K, I'm not seeing a ton of cost savings and seriously doubt it would demand a $250K price tag to certify a 162.

Thank you for making my point for me. The DA20 costs $50,000 more than the 162, the Liberty is only available by special order, and the Alarus is no longer in production.

Maybe it wouldn't be $250K, but it'd certainly be more to get the 162 certified and produced... The $199K DA20 gives us a clue. Of course, I doubt the Skycatcher would sell well at all at the same price as the DA20 - DA20 is faster, better-looking, better visibility, etc. etc. etc...

 

[poadeleted21]

Thank you for making my point for me. The DA20 costs $50,000 more than the 162, the Liberty is only available by special order, and the Alarus is no longer in production.

Maybe it wouldn't be $250K, but it'd certainly be more to get the 162 certified and produced... The $199K DA20 gives us a clue. Of course, I doubt the Skycatcher would sell well at all at the same price as the DA20 - DA20 is faster, better-looking, better visibility, etc. etc. etc...

The DA40 is considerably more expensive than a 172.

The fact that the Liberty is special order and the Alarus isn't in production show's how much of a demand there are for those planes within the ranks of PPL holders with current medicals. i.e. not much. The alaraus is a more capable plane than a 162, cheaper too.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think I would try to convince someone to obtain the PP rating instead of SPL if they had no issues with the medical. Not being able to fly at night restricts a lot of utility.

Not being able to fly at all until all your night/XC/instrument requirements are done is worse, IMO...

There are multiple reasons to get Sport instead of Private - Medical is but one of many. The OP wanted to get the SP, even after doing his research, but the FBO apparently would rather push him into doing something he doesn't want to do. THAT is the problem here.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The DA40 is considerably more expensive than a 172.

And more capable. Better useful load, better view, better speed, better efficiency, etc etc etc...

The fact that the Liberty is special order and the Alarus isn't in production show's how much of a demand there are for those planes within the ranks of PPL holders with current medicals. i.e. not much. The alaraus is a more capable plane than a 162, cheaper too.

The main problem here, IMO, is that nobody wants to buy ANY new airplane from a new manufacturer, laying out that much moola for something that may have no parts support after only a year or two after the new manufacturer goes out of business. When the plane isn't anything particularly special, which those aren't, they're gonna have a tough time.

 

[avotero]

Not to ridicule, but this is, well, ridiculous.

The number of people, who get their ticket with minimal hours is statistically insignificant. The reality is that most students take more than 50% more than the minimum time.
The course of study that I recommend to everyone (especially older guys just getting into it, and kids who don't have a rich daddy) is start with your Sport rating. But don't fly Sport requirements. Fly the PPL requirements, cross country, etc, etc. Anything that takes more miles or more time the Sport cert requires, do it. It counts if you go on to PPL.
Take your Sport checkride. Get your Sport Cert. You now have proof of return on investment.
Now take the Mrs, the Mr, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the kids, whatever, whoever, flying. Have fun.
Rack up hours. Hone your mad skills.
Now look at what's left: A Medical, Night work, Hood time, and a checkride. If you can pass a medical, go for it. If not, fly the heck out of your Sport cert.

BTW it's about 20%++ cheaper to go the Sport to PPL because Light Sport rentals are significantly cheaper.

And one other little bit of opinionizing, while I have the floor:
All the "my pecker is bigger than your pecker" posturing that goes on in the aviation world does more to turn people off, and away, from flying than just about anything else, even money.
If someone is really motivated to learn to fly, they will crawl through broken glass to find a way to pay for it. As soon as some jerk ridicules them, then the dream dies, and so does the motivation.

Glenn

Thanks!!!!

I am 41. I wanted to learn to fly since I was 8! Been to oshkosh 8 times in the last 10 years... But have always thought to be too expensive to get my private license, but never gave up on the dream...

So, been trying to figure out how to do it at a lower cost, and the initial solution I found was that if you going to do it, it needs be done ALL in a very short time, or it will take you really long ($$$$) if you fly only 1 hour a week, or two hours a month. So, the affordable solution was to take 30 to 40 days off from work, and go somewhere just to get your ppl. I can't take 30 days off.... But if I could, I would be able to get my ppl close to the minimums. The other option, 2 hours a month, probably means it will take me 70 hours, or three years - I might quit at that pace for lack of motivation, how many ppl students haven't quit???

Now, here is a twist. In August 2012, after taking my then 15 year old daughter who at the time was living in Brasil for a scenery flight over Chicago, she decide that she wanted to fly once she came up to live with daddy in 2013...

Since I am not that rich, now there are two wanna be pilots!! How are we going to afford this? AND then the better question, how often are we going to fly after we get a ppl on a cessna burning 10gph???

So suddenly it struck me... Get a sports pilot license, it will be faster, less costly, you both will reap the reward of having finished something (I hear toooo many people who started their ppl and has not finished because of how long is taking them, if they had done the sports pilot, they would at least by now, both in time and investment, have something to show for!)

Now, I DO want to one day get my IFR! And so does my daughter. So from the start we know we want to be headed towards and IFR. But we both will not be flying for a living, as of yet. So no need for a hurry on the IFR...

So, I've been researching on how to do it. What would be the MOST EFFICIENT path? DOABLE PATH (remember all who have started and not finished their ppl!!!) And at the LEAST costly way.

So, Glenn, I think you have just helped me with the last part that I needed to close on my plan:

1. Get a SP with a CFI (so hour can count towards ppl in future)
---->>> I WILL BE HAPPIER (flying) SOONER!!!

2. Buy an used CTLS. (so I can afford to fly!!! AND FLY OFTEN!!!!!! 5gph vs 10gph, $$ TBO rotax vs IO, etc, etc)

3. Fly LSA ("Fly the PPL requirements, cross country, etc, etc." )
---->>> I WILL HAVE FUN while racking those hours.... and at 5gph I should be able to afford cross country....

4. Once I cover the ppl hours requirements, then do the extra stuff needed for a ppl
("Rack up hours. Hone your mad skills.Now look at what's left: A Medical, Night work, Hood time, and a checkride. If you can pass a medical, go for it. If not, fly the heck out of your Sport cert")

5. Once I have the ppl, I can do IFR training (LSA can do IFR training on VFR days) (CTLS with glass Dynon100 and 120, etc) on my own low hourly cost plane....

IN CONCLUSION:

Getting a sports pilot will afford me and my daughter a pathway to an IFR rating while we have FUN flying!!! Our goal to be Sports Pilot by Oshkosh 2014!!

And at a low hourly cost to operate aircraft like the CTLS,

WE WILL FLY OFTEN!

which is the whole point of getting a license!!!

(lastly, for those of you that don't get it, and will tell me to get my ppl right off the bat, remember all those students who have quit their ppl, when they could be doing sports flying by now and slowly building their hours towards ppl)

(and please, don't argue that an ppl can also buy a CTLS... Sure true. But if you get your ppl on a cessna, and having just got your ppl, you really going to venture into an LSA aircraft???? Or every time this new ppl is thinking about flying he will be thinking on the cessna... or how he could buy his own cessna...)

(and sure, you can get a ppl on a LSA. But how many schools have ppl on a LSA?)


Andre

if you are in around Chicago,
come at my place for the beast real authentic Brazilian food you can find:

www.tasteofbrasilcafe.com

 

[eman1200]

........Andre

if you are in around Chicago,
come at my place for the beast real authentic Brazilian food you can find:

www.tasteofbrasilcafe.com

forget about "the beast", I might suggest you say 'come TO my place', but then again, I don't know what kind of place it really is

 

[Sac Arrow]

Thanks!!!!
5. Once I have the ppl, I can do IFR training (LSA can do IFR training on VFR days) (CTLS with glass Dynon100 and 120, etc) on my own low hourly cost plane....

IN CONCLUSION:

Getting a sports pilot will afford me and my daughter a pathway to an IFR rating while we have FUN flying!!! Our goal to be Sports Pilot by Oshkosh 2014!!

And at a low hourly cost to operate aircraft like the CTLS,

WE WILL FLY OFTEN!

which is the whole point of getting a license!!!

(lastly, for those of you that don't get it, and will tell me to get my ppl right off the bat, remember all those students who have quit their ppl, when they could be doing sports flying by now and slowly building their hours towards ppl)

(and please, don't argue that an ppl can also buy a CTLS... Sure true. But if you get your ppl on a cessna, and having just got your ppl, you really going to venture into an LSA aircraft???? Or every time this new ppl is thinking about flying he will be thinking on the cessna... or how he could buy his own cessna..

Well, other than a rather marginal amount of extra training hours, and a marginally more complex checkride, you avoid constant sign offs under your SP certificate if you get a PPL even if you never did intend to go further than that. If you did intend to get a PPL or greater in the future, and an IR, it's a no brainer to me.

 

[Concorde]

forget about "the beast", I might suggest you say 'come TO my place', but then again, I don't know what kind of place it really is

Is this your way of saying " welcome to POA " to the new member ?

 

[rbridges]

Well, other than a rather marginal amount of extra training hours, and a marginally more complex checkride, you avoid constant sign offs under your SP certificate if you get a PPL even if you never did intend to go further than that. If you did intend to get a PPL or greater in the future, and an IR, it's a no brainer to me.

also, there are certified/non-lsa aircraft that burn less than 10gph. A 150/152 will get you around for 5-6 gph.

 

[gprellwitz]

Thanks!!!!
...
Andre

if you are in around Chicago,
come at my place for the beast real authentic Brazilian food you can find:

www.tasteofbrasilcafe.com

What's the address? The Hours and Location page only tells me the exit, at least on an iPad.

And your plan sounds pretty good! Wish you and your daughter success!

 

[LDJones]

Do whatever works. I split my primary training between 150s, Cherokee 140 and a Jabiru LSA. All of my LSA students ultimately opted to do their PPL right from the start, but none had any medical issues to worry about. The incremental training difference was insignificant. A modern LSA is a joy to fly, and 4-5 gph at over 100 kts definitely helps!

Another advantage of getting your own aircraft is you can shop around and find a CFI to work with both of you. You might even be able to work out a special rate if you double up on his trips to the airport.

You don't need to set aside 30 days to get through a rating quickly. I took a guy through his ppl in five months flying only Sat. mornings....usually two lessons with a ground school break between. If his schedule would have allowed a weekday evening flight or two and a Sunday lesson we could have done it in couple of months.

Good luck with your training!

 

[SoloEqs]

So suddenly it struck me... Get a sports pilot license, it will be faster, less costly, you both will reap the reward of having finished somethinghttp://www.tasteofbrasilcafe.com

If you want to save money, forget about the CTLS. Buy a Cessna 150, 152 or 172. Good 150s are available for under $20K, and fair-condition 172s for not much more (check barnstormers.com).

Instructors aren't too expensive, and will happily teach you in your plane, so your costs begin to amortize from the start, and you will have a FAR better plane than the LSA for a fraction of the price. Forget about the 20-hour fable, you'll probably have more than 40 in your log before you're ready. I think the average difference between SP and PP is about 10 hours, by the time you've passed the checkride. A lot of that is solo anyhow.

Get the autogas STC and operating expenses stay low enough that you will NEVER spend as much as you would if you go with the CTLS (figuring total costs of purchase, insurance and hourly expenses), so you get the PP and a Cessna and still come out way ahead.

 

[valittu]

Forget about the 20-hour fable, you'll probably have more than 40 in your log before you're ready. I think the average difference between SP and PP is about 10 hours, by the time you've passed the checkride. A lot of that is solo anyhow.

Not true, especially for the "solo in less than 10 hours" students. If it's going to take you PPL requirement hours to master the aircraft, why not just get the PPL, unless you have some medical condition? If you're soloing at 8 hours, the checkride at or about the bare minimum 25 hours required for SP may not be too far fetched. Just make sure to use a real CFI(FAA's words, not mine) so that, if you decide to go further every hour you fly will count towards it. The more you fly, the better you'll be. Who's probably a better Pilot, the Sport Pilot who flies 200 hours a year or the Private Pilot who barely clears 50? The rating doesn't truly tell the tale.

 

[avotero]

What's the address? The Hours and Location page only tells me the exit, at least on an iPad.

And your plan sounds pretty good! Wish you and your daughter success!

Grant,

Just notice there is some issue with the address not showing up on the site (in need of a new website...)

We are at 906 S. Oak Park Ave, Oak Park, just off the Ike (I-290) and Harlem ave.

Btw, my daughter is part of The Aviation Explorers Post 9 off of KPWK (she spent the whole week up in oshkosh volunteering this year). And I just found out that 1C5 has some of the most affordable gas in the region (really expensive at KPWK).

 

[avotero]

Jonesy

Thanks for the detailed examples and suggestions

 

[avotero]

If you want to save money, forget about the CTLS. Buy a Cessna 150, 152 or 172. Good 150s are available for under $20K, and fair-condition 172s for not ... CTLS (figuring total costs of purchase, insurance and hourly expenses), so you get the PP and a Cessna and still come out way ahead.

Humm,

I don't have any ideas on the insurance of an used CTLS or CTSW vs a Cessna 150. But my budget for a used CTSW would be around 75K. And a 150 for around 20k, how much maintenance / headache would it give me and costs? Either way, a good pre inspection by a competent A&P will be a must, I guess.

I been planing on having the CT available at a club, as I believe airplanes like to fly, and if I would only fly it 50hrs a year, it doesn't seem to make economical sense. I think a plane flying 200 to 300 hours yearly are better maintained and kept than one sitting around with the cylinder heads rusting out...

And at the specific club I am looking at, it has been too early for me to figured out which one would rent out easier the old Cessna warrior 150 or the modern sexy CT?

But if the club is out, or I don't bring in a partner, the 150 might start to make a lot of sense (then I will get a PPL).

Also, I would like to do cross country, so two performance figures I would like to maximize are both mpg (nm/gal) and cruise speed. It seems that the best I found so far is the Pipistrel Virus at 147knots / 4.7 gal (http://www.pipistrel-usa.com/models/virus-sw-tech.html) but that's not an LSA. So that's a different discussion and different thread and something for the future when I am an experienced pilot. I looked at the CTs at 120knots / 5.6 gal because of them being more readily available, and servicing should be easier (but nothing compared to servicing a Cessna ;-)

 

[SoloEqs]

If you're soloing at 8 hours, the checkride at or about the bare minimum 25 hours required for SP may not be too far fetched.

25 > 20.

SP requires 15 hours of dual and 5 hours solo, PP requires 20 hours of dual and 20 hours solo. Most of the dual is the same stuff for each, so it's not much of a detour to go for SP on the way to PP.

However, if you track for PP, most of the extra 20 hours is solo -- which you want to do ANYHOW -- so it's not a burden, it's "fun flying" with more of a purpose than a $100 hamburger.

If you're looking at 25 hours as "not too far fetched" (and I agree, BTW), then that just means the student is 15 hours MORE ready at 40.

If SP had the 1800 pound limit that the FAA gave Icon, it would be all the certificate that a large number of pilots will ever need, giving them just about all of the 2-seat GA planes out there.

 

[SoloEqs]

Humm,

I don't have any ideas on the insurance of an used CTLS or CTSW vs a Cessna 150. But my budget for a used CTSW would be around 75K. And a 150 for around 20k, how much maintenance / headache would it give me and costs?

I would not buy an LSA for $75K. Period. If you bought a $20K 150, you will never spend the other $55K in maintenance, fuel, options, training and all other expenses combined.

If you have that budget for just the airplane, the only reason to go to SP would be to avoid the medical issue.

 

[LDJones]

PPL is 40 hours, with a minimum of 20 dual and 10 solo. They recognized more dual might be of more value than extra solo, and that most needed more than 20 dual.

 

[N918KT]

I would not buy an LSA for $75K. Period. If you bought a $20K 150, you will never spend the other $55K in maintenance, fuel, options, training and all other expenses combined.

If you have that budget for just the airplane, the only reason to go to SP would be to avoid the medical issue.

Just wondering, are there any USED SLSAs that sell for $20,000 to $40,000? I know that is a stretch at this time, but do you think any SLSAs that were produced around the time since the SP/LSA rules were born would have their prices depreciated to that price range by now?

 

[Jim Logajan]

Just wondering, are there any USED SLSAs that sell for $20,000 to $40,000? I know that is a stretch at this time, but do you think any SLSAs that were produced around the time since the SP/LSA rules were born would have their prices depreciated to that price range by now?

The FAA has this list of type certificated airplanes that include models that would be in that cost range - though they are all rather old:

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/ExistingModels.pdf

EAA has a list of more recent models that can be reviewed to see what turns up:

http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/

 

[SoloEqs]

Just wondering, are there any USED SLSAs that sell for $20,000 to $40,000? I know that is a stretch at this time, but do you think any SLSAs that were produced around the time since the SP/LSA rules were born would have their prices depreciated to that price range by now?

My neighbor with the LSA spent something like $28K for a Rans, which is a nice LSA. Beyond that, I don't pay much attention to LSA costs.

His hourly fuel costs are similar to mine, it costs him as much for his annual "condition inspection" as the annual costs for my 150, and he's going to have to replace his fabric every several years. I really like his plane, but I wouldn't swap mine for his, much less pay twice the price. I can carry more (both weight and volume), and the 150 has a 60-year track record of reliability and performance.

Barnstormers has over half a dozen Ercoupes under $20K and another half dozen between 20 and 30. Several of these meet LSA standards.

 

[jimson]

I'll tell you why I am going sport instead of PPL.

I can get started cheaper, I don't care if I finish cheaper.

I may be able to pass a medical, maybe not, but if I risk it and get denied, I won't even be able to do sport will I? So then I would have to spend money and time getting a non FAA doc to pre screen me?

No thanks.

I can train out of a non towered airport so more of my paid lesson actually goes to training instead of sitting on the ground waiting for clearance.

Don't have to deal with ATC, it's all a little less intimidating. I believe I'm less likely to get scared off before I gain some confidence.

I can get towered endorsement, tail wheel etc and do just about all I ever intend to do. If I can't afford a new Sting Sport or Eurofox, I can always find an Ercoupe, Cub or any one of thousands of experimentals that meet the LSA category.

The aviation community has done the sport a disservice by not embracing this. I know some of it is that it is just impractical to buy an expensive LSA, but more people would do it if more people offered it.

I have an hour drive for lessons and there are lot's of flight schools within 15 minutes of me, but it's worth it because it's a frigging great starting point for me and to get people into the sport.

If they end up relaxing the PPL medical or I find out that I am sure to pass then I can upgrade later with some experience under my belt.

Nothing that broadens aviation is a bad thing but elitist curmudgeons are definitely not good for the sport.

 

[ralarcon]

1099512]I don't buy this argument. Sure, some LSAs are severely weight-limited, like the Skycatcher. Half tanks and two normal sized people is about all you can get in it, I think (possibly untrue...I have a whopping 0.6 hrs in one, never looked at the w/b). However, the Tecnam Eaglet I fly does fine with two 200 pound guys.

Gross - empty - full fuel = two 200 pound guys plus some change
1320 - 760 - 6 * 24 = 415

From what I understand, the Remos is even better on useful load. Maybe almost 100 pounds better? That airframe is pretty light. And there are more.[/QUOTE]

A picture is worth a thousand words

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsvvAUCwcxY


Cheers

 

[ralarcon]

You're definitely right on that score, Doc. We only fill our LSA to half-tanks since I haven't figured out how to leave half of me on the ground!

I fill my CTLS with full tanks and luggage when I fly cross country with my wife.

Cheers

 

[RalphInCA]

My flying club has a Remos, a couple of 150s, a 172, a Cherokee 180 and a couple of other airplanes. The Remos is by far the least used, even though it is the cheapest per hour and newest, cleanest and comparably equipped.

I think this is because most club members secretly don't trust the Rotax, and don't want to have to deal with a super light airplane that gets thrown around by the winds.

 

[OkieAviator]

I'll tell you why I am going sport instead of PPL.

I can get started cheaper, I don't care if I finish cheaper.

I may be able to pass a medical, maybe not, but if I risk it and get denied, I won't even be able to do sport will I? So then I would have to spend money and time getting a non FAA doc to pre screen me?

No thanks.

I can train out of a non towered airport so more of my paid lesson actually goes to training instead of sitting on the ground waiting for clearance.

Don't have to deal with ATC, it's all a little less intimidating. I believe I'm less likely to get scared off before I gain some confidence.

I can get towered endorsement, tail wheel etc and do just about all I ever intend to do. If I can't afford a new Sting Sport or Eurofox, I can always find an Ercoupe, Cub or any one of thousands of experimentals that meet the LSA category.

The aviation community has done the sport a disservice by not embracing this. I know some of it is that it is just impractical to buy an expensive LSA, but more people would do it if more people offered it.

I have an hour drive for lessons and there are lot's of flight schools within 15 minutes of me, but it's worth it because it's a frigging great starting point for me and to get people into the sport.

If they end up relaxing the PPL medical or I find out that I am sure to pass then I can upgrade later with some experience under my belt.

Nothing that broadens aviation is a bad thing but elitist curmudgeons are definitely not good for the sport.

Welcome to POA and the "sport" of aviation...

 

[jimson]

Welcome to POA and the "sport" of aviation...

Thanks, I have Okie roots.

I don't know if "sport" is the right word. endeavor or obsession might be better.

I think sport pilot is a great thing and am sorry it hasn't caught on better. For me it's the starting point, not necessarily the ending point.

 

[exncsurfer]

Thanks, I have Okie roots.

I don't know if "sport" is the right word. endeavor or obsession might be better.

I think sport pilot is a great thing and am sorry it hasn't caught on better. For me it's the starting point, not necessarily the ending point.

When I inquired about sport pilot training at my local fbo last year, they seemed confused and basically blew it off. When I asked why they had it listed on their web site they just said, uh, well we can do it but we don't have any lsa planes to rent right now, and were not getting any.

So I can see where you're coming from. Like other's have said, just depends on where you are. I can also see where others are coming from, if you're gonna end up private, I'd probably rather have one less check ride, written and oral. But if that doesn't bother you i don't think it should be discouraged.

 

[vdehart]

First off, it looks like this thread was dug up from the depths, but the conversation is still relevant so I will chime in with a few short bits:

#1. The traditional training fleet of Piper Warriors and Cessna 150/152s can only last for so long. Let's face it, these airplanes are no longer being made and they will not last forever. They can last a long time, but will a comparable number of 152s be flying in 2030? I think not.

#2. There are nearly 200 light sport manufacturers in the USA. The market has yet to dictate which manufacturer will succeed. It is my belief that the manufacturer who can lower the price of their S-LSA and provide options for financing to flight schools will eventually emerge as the frontrunner. At the moment it is hard if not impossible to obtain financing for an S-LSA aircraft intended for leaseback to a flight school.

#3. More S-LSA training aircraft are now being built than standard category training aircraft. These will be the trainers of the future.

#4. I believe it is a gross understatement to say that it would only take about 6 hours extra of training for PPL vs SPL. I've calculated the following dual hours to upgrade from SPL to PPL:

- New standard category aircraft familiarization(6 hours)
- 3 hours of cross country flight training (50nm cross country flights)
- 3 hours of night training including a 100nm total distance cross country
- 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop at night (2 hours)
- 3 hours of simulated instrument training
- Reviewing maneuvers to Private Pilot PTS standards, aka checkride prep (3 hours)


In short, I believe that the sport pilot rating will only further grow in popularity as a result of the factors discussed above. This is evidenced by the consistent growth in active sport pilots year over year since the ratings creation (as per the 2014 airmen statistics released by the FAA). These statistics do not account for the private pilots who have let their medical lapse and are now exercising sport privileges, which therefore effectively invalidates the argument that the only reason sport pilot is successful is because of this group of people.

And for a little perspective, I am a CFI-Sport who took the route of private pilot for his initial training. If I had the opportunity now, I would have chosen to pursue the sport pilot rating initially and then upgraded to private pilot later on as I saw fit.

 

[Ravioli]

If you're not interested in leaving home base, why don't you just go for the recreational certificate? I don't see the point in doing the SPL unless you have a medical condition that prevents (either really prevents the 3rd class or it makes it prohibitively expensive) the PPL. Why do you not want a higher level of training in flight? Maybe one day you'll be out on a moonless night. Maybe even (I hope not!) you accidentally wander into a cloud.. those things can happen to those who do the SPL, but they will be far more up a creek than one with a PPL who went through that extra 6 hours. If you really think you're ready to carry passengers like your wife/husband/children/parents/dog at 20 hours, be my guest. The only dual I regret getting is the dual where I didn't learn anything, and I can safely say that was only about 2 hours out of my 200TT and 100 and change instructional time. And honestly, I did learn that it was time for a new CFI. It's your life up there, is it really worth cheaping out on training?

My thinking exactly... Less training is more daring. And more daring is a bad trait for NEW pilots.

 

[drotto]

First off, it looks like this thread was dug up from the depths, but the conversation is still relevant so I will chime in with a few short bits:

#1. The traditional training fleet of Piper Warriors and Cessna 150/152s can only last for so long. Let's face it, these airplanes are no longer being made and they will not last forever. They can last a long time, but will a comparable number of 152s be flying in 2030? I think not.

#2. There are nearly 200 light sport manufacturers in the USA. The market has yet to dictate which manufacturer will succeed. It is my belief that the manufacturer who can lower the price of their S-LSA and provide options for financing to flight schools will eventually emerge as the frontrunner. At the moment it is hard if not impossible to obtain financing for an S-LSA aircraft intended for leaseback to a flight school.

#3. More S-LSA training aircraft are now being built than standard category training aircraft. These will be the trainers of the future.

#4. I believe it is a gross understatement to say that it would only take about 6 hours extra of training for PPL vs SPL. I've calculated the following dual hours to upgrade from SPL to PPL:

- New standard category aircraft familiarization(6 hours)
- 3 hours of cross country flight training (50nm cross country flights)
- 3 hours of night training including a 100nm total distance cross country
- 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop at night (2 hours)
- 3 hours of simulated instrument training
- Reviewing maneuvers to Private Pilot PTS standards, aka checkride prep (3 hours)


In short, I believe that the sport pilot rating will only further grow in popularity as a result of the factors discussed above. This is evidenced by the consistent growth in active sport pilots year over year since the ratings creation (as per the 2014 airmen statistics released by the FAA). These statistics do not account for the private pilots who have let their medical lapse and are now exercising sport privileges, which therefore effectively invalidates the argument that the only reason sport pilot is successful is because of this group of people.

And for a little perspective, I am a CFI-Sport who took the route of private pilot for his initial training. If I had the opportunity now, I would have chosen to pursue the sport pilot rating initially and then upgraded to private pilot later on as I saw fit.

While I agree with your assessment that more training will be done in the smaller airplanes in the future, I can't agree with your assessment that the SP rating will overtake the PP rating. From people I have spoken with, many that do SP, do it because of medical issues, or fear of not getting medical clearance. If the changes happen with the class 3 medical clearance, many of the people that were doing SP now have than obstacle removed, and I believe more of those will opt for the PPL.

The second part of the equation is how many SP rated pilots later go for the PP rating. The local flying that the SP allows is very limited for anyone that wants to use the plane for travel, and I bet that is the reason many people got there PPL in the first place. They actually want to go somewhere, not just burn circles in the sky.

 

[1600vw]

While I agree with your assessment that more training will be done in the smaller airplanes in the future, I can't agree with your assessment that the SP rating will overtake the PP rating. From people I have spoken with, many that do SP, do it because of medical issues, or fear of not getting medical clearance. If the changes happen with the class 3 medical clearance, many of the people that were doing SP now have than obstacle removed, and I believe more of those will opt for the PPL.

The second part of the equation is how many SP rated pilots later go for the PP rating. The local flying that the SP allows is very limited for anyone that wants to use the plane for travel, and I bet that is the reason many people got there PPL in the first place. They actually want to go somewhere, not just burn circles in the sky.

Sport Pilot Certificate.....Is for those who want to fly as a SPORT or the fun of it. Why we burn circles in the sky.

The ones who get this ticket to travel want to get a ticket to travel at less of a cost to a PP certificate. They fully intend to travel and not fly just for the Sport or Fun of it.

Sport Pilot is for those who like the Sport of flying. Like the title says. SPORT Pilot. Simple. Its those who want to stretch this certificate into a PPL that use it for travel.

Just me but they should have put a limit on how far one can travel using the Sport Pilot certificate. When does the Sport fall out of Sport Pilot when one is traveling instead of burning holes in the sky.

Tony

 

[poadeleted21]

I'll tell you why I am going sport instead of PPL.

I can get started cheaper, I don't care if I finish cheaper.

I may be able to pass a medical, maybe not, but if I risk it and get denied, I won't even be able to do sport will I? So then I would have to spend money and time getting a non FAA doc to pre screen me?

No thanks.

I can train out of a non towered airport so more of my paid lesson actually goes to training instead of sitting on the ground waiting for clearance.

Don't have to deal with ATC, it's all a little less intimidating. I believe I'm less likely to get scared off before I gain some confidence.

I can get towered endorsement, tail wheel etc and do just about all I ever intend to do. If I can't afford a new Sting Sport or Eurofox, I can always find an Ercoupe, Cub or any one of thousands of experimentals that meet the LSA category.

The aviation community has done the sport a disservice by not embracing this. I know some of it is that it is just impractical to buy an expensive LSA, but more people would do it if more people offered it.

I have an hour drive for lessons and there are lot's of flight schools within 15 minutes of me, but it's worth it because it's a frigging great starting point for me and to get people into the sport.

If they end up relaxing the PPL medical or I find out that I am sure to pass then I can upgrade later with some experience under my belt.

Nothing that broadens aviation is a bad thing but elitist curmudgeons are definitely not good for the sport.

Not to be a smartass, but you should probably not pursue flying.