Why are ramp checks allowed when random traffic stops are not?

So you ignore laws you disagree?

Back to the OP, he asked why he could be ramp checked by the FAA. I answered citing the law that permits it.

I'm trying to answer the OP's question based on facts and supplied a reference.
Ignoring? Where did I say I was ignoring? He asked how it was constitutional...quoting a law says nothing about constitutionality.
 
Your question doesn't make sense to me in context.
You said "...what good is the constitution..." and "...That's the whole point of the constitution..." and "...an administrative rule NEVER trumps the constituion." What part of the constitution are you talking about? What in the Constitution supports what you are saying?
 
How is it unconstitutional?

This law was written by congress, approved by the senate and signed into law by the President. As specified in the US constitution.

Has anyone tried to get into the courts and have the USSC decide the constitutionality of this law?
So was the Fugitive Slave Act.
 
Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…

Ramp checks are probably more equivalent to traffic check points than a traffic stop. Police can stop every car on a road and ask to the see that relevant documents are available. That's essentially what a ramp check is doing.
 
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
 
Please show me the court case where 49USC 44709 was challenged and struck down as unconstitutional. I'll wait.
I doubt if it was. There are many search and seizure cases that have set the precedent so I doubt any one would even try. If so, the Court would probably just say no, we ain't hearing this and oh by the way, your standing to argue before the Court is revoked.
 
Ok, didn't know that law was still on the books.

Thanks for the update. :rolleyes:
Whether it is on the books now is immaterial. The issue was whether a law passed by Congress and signed by the President can be unconstitutional. It can. You must have missed that.
 
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
I haven't. I know someone who did. He was at some kind of event with lotsa planes that flew in and the Feds was hanging out there. They probably gotta do at least one or their boss will jump in their sheet for just having a good time and not doing any work while they're there.
 
I wonder how it's allowed that anyone can look up an N number and find out a bunch of information on the plane & the pilot. I can't do that with the tag number from an auto ...:popcorn:
 
Whether it is on the books now is immaterial. The issue was whether a law passed by Congress and signed by the President can be unconstitutional. It can. You must have missed that.

No, you've missed the point. If you feel 49USC 44709 is unconstitutional, challenge it and have it thrown out. Have you asked AOPA or EAA legal if they are willing to fight this?
 
No, you've missed the point. If you feel 49USC 44709 is unconstitutional, challenge it and have it thrown out. Have you asked AOPA or EAA legal if they are willing to fight this?

It would be a lost cause because of post #2.
 
Why on earth is there heat on this subject?

I would expect any challenge to "ramp check authority" to be weighed against "public benefit" just as a matter of common sense -- nobody wants you flying some unairworthy contraption above them, and nobody wants you doing that without proper credentials.

So if someone DID challenge this because "muh freedoms", and even if you won and got ramp check authority stricken down -- there would certainly come a stronger and better law authorizing ramp checks to replace it, and quickly.

I don't know what we're debating here. "Ramp checks hurt my feelings" ? This is a really weird hill to die on. I'd love to de-fang the FAA in myriad and assorted ways, but "ramp checks" seems low on the target list to me.

$0.02 :)
 
Why on earth is there heat on this subject?

I would expect any challenge to "ramp check authority" to be weighed against "public benefit" just as a matter of common sense -- nobody wants you flying some unairworthy contraption above them, and nobody wants you doing that without proper credentials.

So if someone DID challenge this because "muh freedoms", and even if you won and got ramp check authority stricken down -- there would certainly come a stronger and better law authorizing ramp checks to replace it, and quickly.

I don't know what we're debating here. "Ramp checks hurt my feelings" ? This is a really weird hill to die on. I'd love to de-fang the FAA in myriad and assorted ways, but "ramp checks" seems low on the target list to me.

$0.02 :)

ETqyd_uWoAY3ssj.jpg
 
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
I have been ramp checked three times, once doing aerial survey, once doing flight instruction, and once doing Part 135 charter. All three were at small, rural, midwestern airports.

I've also been stopped at a sobriety checkpoint in Colorado.

Oh, and tracked and followed by a US Customs Citation to our landing in Roswell, NM. We were in a C-320, doing aerial survey.
 
No, you've missed the point. If you feel 49USC 44709 is unconstitutional, challenge it and have it thrown out. Have you asked AOPA or EAA legal if they are willing to fight this?
Stop trolling. My post simply addressed whether a law passed by Congress could be unconstitutional. Please show where I ever commented on the constitutionality of ramp checks. Take your time... It's an open book test.
 
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
Never been ramp checked flying GA. I’ve had a few feds in the jumpseat though.
 
I have been ramp checked three times, once doing aerial survey, once doing flight instruction, and once doing Part 135 charter. All three were at small, rural, midwestern airports.

I've also been stopped at a sobriety checkpoint in Colorado.

Oh, and tracked and followed by a US Customs Citation to our landing in Roswell, NM. We were in a C-320, doing aerial survey.
I guess that you are just a lucky guy!
 
Stop trolling. My post simply addressed whether a law passed by Congress could be unconstitutional. Please show where I ever commented on the constitutionality of ramp checks. Take your time... It's an open book test.

seriously-side-eye-baby-large.jpg
 
In theory, and in general, a traffic stop requires probable cause in the form of an observed infraction.

I recall courts have ruled that things like DUI checkpoints are legal if they are truly random - I.e. stopping every car or every fifth car or whatever. Not saying I agree, but that’s what I recall as the legal justification. The way the laws are mostly written a driver is compelled to show his or her license, registration and proof of insurance (if required) regardless of whether the stop is legitimate. The time to fight the legitimacy of the stop is later in court. What’s not OK is just stopping a car on a hunch, because of racial profiling or for no reason at all.

I don’t know if the FAA has similar protocols. It might make an interesting court case to fight a charge that stemmed from a “search” or “seizure” without probable cause for an aircraft owner.

edited to add: composed while Rushie was posting hers. It’s a much more comprehensive explanation.
I heard this story once, may be true, may not but I believe it. The fuzz set up a checkpoint somewhere, don't remember exactly what it was for. A judge said they can't be just stopping people randomly. So the fuzz put up a sign that said in so many words, checkpoint ahead. They put it where there was a place to turn around and go back. They pulled over and checked anyone who did. The judge was cool with that as probable cause that the driver was obviously trying to conceal something.
 
That's a typical lawyer deflection.

***

So can you point to the cases that have challenged 49 USC 44709 and the rulings that this law is indeed unconstitutional?
No one suggested it was or that it would be or not be upheld. To the contrary, if anything, my post suggested that if it were challenged, it would likely be upheld upheld as a reasonable administrative intrusion. But I think that even the FAA recognizes constitutional limits to 49 USC §44709. It's no big surprise that ASIs are instructed
An inspector must not open or board any aircraft without the knowledge and consent of the crew or owner/operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.​

You may call explanations like that "lawyer deflection." I call it "avoiding simplistic thinking" (when I'm feeling charitable).
 
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Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
I haven't been but I have friends who have and I watched one from afar. Most are no big deal but you sometimes get that ASI.
 
I guess that you are just a lucky guy!
Or I look suspicious! :D

None of these encounters were unpleasant. The customs stop was surprising, but they acted pretty embarrassed and apologetic when they figured out what we were really doing. Then we all had pizza supplied by someone, either them or the FBO.
 
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either.

Was wondering the same thing. I have never been, nor known any GA pilot who has been. I wonder if there are stats somewhere that show numbers of ramp-checks for GA vs 135 vs 121 ops...
 
Whether it is on the books now is immaterial. The issue was whether a law passed by Congress and signed by the President can be unconstitutional. It can. You must have missed that.
FWIW it became meaningless by The Emancipation Proclamation January 1, 1863. It got officially repealed and taken off the books by Congress June 28, 1865. The whole thing became a nothing December 18, 1865 with the ratification of the 13th Amendment.
 
Was wondering the same thing. I have never been, nor known any GA pilot who has been. I wonder if there are stats somewhere that show numbers of ramp-checks for GA vs 135 vs 121 ops...

It can depend a lot on the particular FSDO.

I personally have never been ramp checked, but know many who have. When I was based at MYF in San Diego, ramp checks were pretty regular. FAA would literally walk across the street to the FBO where several flying clubs were based and do ramp checks.

Also, many ramp checks happen at air shows.
 
Why is one considered out of bounds by the 4/5th amendment and the other isn’t?
I’m just curious of what technicality allows for one but not the other…
FYI: Technically the ramp check is considered surveillance and not a search. I've been ramp checked while working on aircraft for the side job and at the day job. Also have been involved with groups that assisted with violations that resulted from a ramp check. Never experienced a time where constitutional rights were ever brought into mix even at the administrative level over a ramp check. The policy procedures for a ramp check are straight forward and explain the reasons:
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v06 surveillance/chapter 01/06_001_004_chg_0a.htm
 
This was mentioned in a reply on another thread but prompted my wonder…

Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…

however in my airplane they could….

Why is one considered out of bounds by the 4/5th amendment and the other isn’t?

Both driving and flying are privileges not rights, so that’s not it. Ones federal ones state regulated but I still don’t think the FBI could just do a vehicle inspection when I walk out of Walmart…

I’m just curious of what technicality allows for one but not the other…

It is constitutional for law enforcement to have random traffic check points for sobriety, equipment and driver licenses. The courts have held legal random audits by tax agencies. That is under criminal law where you may be deprived of your liberty if your are found in violation of the law.

Ramp checks are civil law. The FAA inspector has no authority to arrest and the courts do not hold the same standard for depriving you of money that they do your liberty.
 
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Again, if you're approached on the ramp, you've not been seized unless the inspector won't let you depart. I believe they are supposed to NOT impede you when doing these. As I stated, even with the police, they're free to come up and start asking you things if you're already stopped somewhere. The constitutionality of this has been determined by the courts to not violate the fourth amendment protections.
 
I wonder how it's allowed that anyone can look up an N number and find out a bunch of information on the plane & the pilot. I can't do that with the tag number from an auto ...:popcorn:

Because...aviation.

Brought to you by the same folks who allow search without probable cause every time you fly commercial.
 
I kind of agree that a lot of this stuff really isn’t constitutional whether or not some lower court has made a dodgy argument that it is.

However, given how rare ramp checks are and how minor they’re reported to be it’s way down on the list of things I’m concerned about.

Now civil asset forfeiture on the other hand…. people behind that ought to be up on charges.
 
I wonder how it's allowed that anyone can look up an N number and find out a bunch of information on the plane & the pilot. I can't do that with the tag number from an auto ...:popcorn:
Because nothing makes government databases of property illegal. By the way, I can do to that with a tag number of an auto, it's just a service that costs money as opposed to the FAA free access.

Information on the individual is a rougher time. The FAA daily violated the Privacy Act and their exemption from it by disseminating information about pilots without authorization.
 
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