Why are ramp checks allowed when random traffic stops are not?

tawood said:
Sigh…suddenly I’m reminded of that Mark Twain quote about arguments…. I’m out.
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iu
 
12a.jpg I have been ramped at least 3 times. Stopped my the US Coast Guard three times in my boat, once in Trinidad waters. Went through one DWI check point in Monterey, CA. on a trip.

The USCG inspection in Tobago, Trinidad was the most intrusive. First thing they did was swab the handles below looking for drug residue. While the swabs were being tested on the Cutter the other officials did the safety inspection. Friends staying with us took the pictures.

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I got stopped because one of my headlights looked dimmer than the other. If they don’t have a reason they can make one up.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I got stopped because one of my headlights looked dimmer than the other. If they don’t have a reason they can make one up.
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I hate Uncle Sam’s Confused Group.

They are like the FAA with guns and far less effective at what they do.
 
On the other hand I had a large motorboat blast by me in a canal and a coast guard station about 1/4 mile in front of me, all of which is a no wake zone. The CG was in their go fast boat within a minute , lights and engine at full intensity, I got up them about 15 minutes later, they were getting a full “safety” inspection, sometimes karma is a thing. :)
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Because...aviation.

Brought to you by the same folks who allow search without probable cause every time you fly commercial.
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Because statistically we are at far greater risk of a plane falling out of the sky on us than we are of a car swerving and hitting us head on at 60 mph or running a red light and t-boning us at an intersection.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
On the other hand I had a large motorboat blast by me in a canal and a coast guard station about 1/4 mile in front of me, all of which is a no wake zone. The CG was in their go fast boat within a minute , lights and engine at full intensity, I got up them about 15 minutes later, they were getting a full “safety” inspection, sometimes karma is a thing. :)
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We were in a small raft up one day and for no reason a ski boat circled us at just the right speed to make a big wake. I got one the VHF stated our position and asked if any law enforcement boats were near us. A Sheriff's boat answered and I stated what happened, they replied are they red or blue? I said red, about 45 minutes later the Sheriff's boat and the offender motored up to us. Sheriff stated the the offender did not have enough life jackets on board and were cited. He then asked if there was any damage and if we wanted to press charges, we passed.
 
Fearless Tower said:
When I was based at MYF in San Diego, ramp checks were pretty regular
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Damn, that's where I am based. No ramp checks here either though, at least not yet

But what's so scary about them? Carry your medical, license, logbook, and the plane should have all the AROW docs there anyway

The Fourth Amendment protects us from unreasonable searches.. sadly because everyone drives but only the entitled rich fly I think it would be very hard to argue this one in court. "Of course it's reasonable to make sure that Timmy has his pilot's license and the plane is legal to fly" .. by the same folks that would cry wolf if you told them to expect random traffic stops, clearly one is reasonable and one it not /s
 
Tantalum said:
But what's so scary about them? Carry your medical, license, logbook, and the plane should have all the AROW docs there anyway
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I carry neither logbook nor medical ala Basic Med with me. To your point, though, I haven't had the opportunity to say to a fed or two "Sorry, I'm busy doing other things and cannot be impeded" yet. But I'd have no problem doing so. Even if "other things" were posting on PoA from the hangar. :D
 
Tantalum said:
Damn, that's where I am based. No ramp checks here either though, at least not yet

But what's so scary about them? Carry your medical, license, logbook, and the plane should have all the AROW docs there anyway

The Fourth Amendment protects us from unreasonable searches.. sadly because everyone drives but only the entitled rich fly I think it would be very hard to argue this one in court. "Of course it's reasonable to make sure that Timmy has his pilot's license and the plane is legal to fly" .. by the same folks that would cry wolf if you told them to expect random traffic stops, clearly one is reasonable and one it not /s
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Yeah. Just have your papers. All the comparisons of traffic stops to ramp checks aren't realistic. Now if you've started up and are taxing out and the airport po-leece block you and demand you shut down, get out and show your papers, well yeah, that's another thing.

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I didn’t know I had to have my logbook in the plane with me. I usually do but is there some reg says I do or do I have to “produce it” in a reasonable time.

I think you don’t have to have your drivers license with you in Ohio. You do have to “produce it” in a reasonable time and life can be annoying if you don’t have with you in the car.

Cheers
 
schmookeeg said:
logbook
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X3 Skier said:
logbook
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I don't believe the law actually states that you have to have your 'logbook', but how else would you prove currency and legality to fly? Let's say you have passengers with you.. ?

Even if it's not required wouldn't it just be easier to have? For what it's worth I just carry foreflight iPad logbook
 
X3 Skier said:
You do have to “produce it” in a reasonable time
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I believe the law is similar where I live too, but I always wondered about the actual mechanics of this..

Feels like it would make your life a lot more difficult to not have it during a traffic stop, and how would you actually 'produce' it?

Not you, but some people pick odd battles to fight.. like the folks that are sober but out of principle make a big fuss at a DUI checkpoint.. just roll the window down and let the cop ask you a few questions and you can go on your merry way

???
 
I don’t have proof of currency in the airplane. Nothing requires me to do that and if asked I’ll produce the records in a timely manner at my convenience.

I should say when I have been asked I produced them in a timely manner at my convenience.
 
I just had my Basic Med physical a few weeks ago and the doctor specifically said I would NOT be rump checked, so I’m all set for four more years. Take that, FAA!
 
Tantalum said:
I don't believe the law actually states that you have to have your 'logbook', but how else would you prove currency and legality to fly? Let's say you have passengers with you.. ?
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You are not required to carry a logbook, nor are you required to show currency on the spot. If that is questioned, you are given time to produce it.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t have proof of currency in the airplane. Nothing requires me to do that and if asked I’ll produce the records in a timely manner at my convenience.

I should say when I have been asked I produced them in a timely manner at my convenience.
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This is my take on things, for all values of "at my convenience" that match "10 days after receipt of this letter" which is what I believe they provide/demand :D
 
Thanks for the insight, I do find the comparisons to traffic stops while under motion not quite apples to apples. But there is good insight shared here.
 
Joe_B1 said:
Getting back to the original post. I just wanted to ask, how many of us have been ramp checked? I have been flying since 1983 and have never been checked or heard of anyone I know ever having been either. And I have been based at some of the bigger airports around Boston.
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Only once, in the C182 in Abuja, Nigeria. All my documents were in French, which he didn't speak, so he just assumed I was good to go.
 
Katamarino said:
Only once, in the C182 in Abuja, Nigeria. All my documents were in French, which he didn't speak, so he just assumed I was good to go.
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This is great, one more reason to translate all of my documents and interior cockpit labeling (on Tantalums future Aztec (if he stays poor, or Velocity if he gets modestly rich, up through DA62/TBM) to aurebesh
 
Plano Pilot said:
View attachment 100125 I have been ramped at least 3 times. Stopped my the US Coast Guard three times in my boat, once in Trinidad waters. Went through one DWI check point in Monterey, CA. on a trip.

The USCG inspection in Tobago, Trinidad was the most intrusive. First thing they did was swab the handles below looking for drug residue. While the swabs were being tested on the Cutter the other officials did the safety inspection. Friends staying with us took the pictures.

View attachment 100122 View attachment 100123 View attachment 100124
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I boat on the Great Lakes...I've never minded a check from the Michigan or Canadian DNR (which happens every so often and at most takes but a couple of minutes) but the USCG? Fuggetaboutit! Talk about a pain in the rear end! The USCG have taken my ID for HOURS before and just boated away with it until they can't be seen, no joke. They have ruined the entire day of fishing on more than one occasion with their slow/ridiculous boarding and power trip attitudes. It got so bad, many years ago I told my kids, who were about 8 to 12 years old at the time and VERY meek/quiet kids that this was their chance to be a-holes whenever we were boarded by USCG. My daughter didn't really do anything different but my 10 year old son, with his adult sense of humor, actually made the USCG boarding hilarious. He suddenly would become Tony Soprano, telling them all to go fornicate with their mothers, or saying they're so dumb it takes them 2 hours to watch 60 minutes, etc. Call it bad parenting, but after ruining so many days with my family, I absolutely enjoyed the heck out of it. Once after my son got off a particularly bad burn, one of the USCG tried calling me out on it saying, "You let your kid talk like that?" I responded, "I teach my kid to tell the truth, what's your point?" Then I ripped into him for about 5 minutes about how every other time I went fishing, these jerks would ruin the day. I get that they have a job to do, and I'd have no problem with a 5 or 10 minute boarding, but the QUICKEST one I ever had from them was probably 90 minutes, and I tried the 'be polite and respectful' route many times...they only got worse when you did that. And they've boarded my boat over a dozen times...never found a single violation either (although they've certainly tried). Its so bad, I've stopped fishing Lake Huron (that's where they lurk due to Canada drug runners), and now only fish Lake Michigan.
 
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sarangan said:
My theory is that police cars are always running your plates. If anything shows up, they can stop you. My wife was stopped one time for an expired driver's license. She didn't know it had expired. But the officer somehow did. How they made the connection between the plate number and who might be driving the car is a mystery to me.
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Almost instant technology ... they know within seconds .... just happened to me .... my car registration was expired ... (unknown to me) .... offices had been closed (COVID) and I had done my renewal over the phone and they got the date wrong (typo) .... police car was approaching me .... I had no concerns ... but he immediately turned around and pulled me over and informed me of no valid registration or insurance .

Great cop ... had no choice but to issue the ticket but then actually drove me to the insurance office so I could fix everything and then I could drive my car home. I am sure he could have called a tow truck and impounded my car.

Turns out that system is everywhere .... our small city removed all the parking meters and laid off all the workers ... then hired a private contractor in one car who simply drives up and down the street and through the public parking lots .... it reads every single licence plate and if a car is there for over one hour issues a ticket ..

Now they are installing plate reading cameras on bridges and main thoroughfares and record everything coming and going.

I have always been a law abiding citizen but find this intense tracking is some scary sh#t.

.
 
sarangan said:
My theory is that police cars are always running your plates. If anything shows up, they can stop you.
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Agree. I got stopped on I-70 in Kansas for having plates that didn't correspond to the car. It was a rental car. The officer told me that they do that sometimes. No ticket for me, but not sure if he got back to the rental car company.
 
tawood said:
I boat on the Great Lakes...I've never minded a check from the Michigan or Canadian DNR (which happens every so often and at most takes but a couple of minutes) but the USCG? Fuggetaboutit! Talk about a pain in the rear end! The USCG have taken my ID for HOURS before and just boated away with it until they can't be seen, no joke. They have ruined the entire day of fishing on more than one occasion with their slow/ridiculous boarding and power trip attitudes. It got so bad, many years ago I told my kids, who were about 8 to 12 years old at the time and VERY meek/quiet kids that this was their chance to be a-holes whenever we were boarded by USCG. My daughter didn't really do anything different but my 10 year old son, with his adult sense of humor, actually made the USCG boarding hilarious. He suddenly would become Tony Soprano, telling them all to go fornicate with their mothers, or saying they're so dumb it takes them 2 hours to watch 60 minutes, etc. Call it bad parenting, but after ruining so many days with my family, I absolutely enjoyed the heck out of it. Once after my son got off a particularly bad burn, one of the USCG tried calling me out on it saying, "You let your kid talk like that?" I responded, "I teach my kid to tell the truth, what's your point?" Then I ripped into him for about 5 minutes about how every other time I went fishing, these jerks would ruin the day. I get that they have a job to do, and I'd have no problem with a 5 or 10 minute boarding, but the QUICKEST one I ever had from them was probably 90 minutes, and I tried the 'be polite and respectful' route many times...they only got worse when you did that. And they've boarded my boat over a dozen times...never found a single violation either (although they've certainly tried). Its so bad, I've stopped fishing Lake Huron (that's where they lurk due to Canada drug runners), and now only fish Lake Michigan.
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As I said earlier. I abhor the Coast Guard.

Between my experience as a Merchant Mariner and as a Naval officer, I have nothing but contempt for that organization.

About the only thing they do well is SAR.

That’s probably why I cut the FAA slack….because I’ve seen much worse!
 
Tantalum said:
I believe the law is similar where I live too, but I always wondered about the actual mechanics of this..

Feels like it would make your life a lot more difficult to not have it during a traffic stop, and how would you actually 'produce' it?

Not you, but some people pick odd battles to fight.. like the folks that are sober but out of principle make a big fuss at a DUI checkpoint.. just roll the window down and let the cop ask you a few questions and you can go on your merry way

???
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Reminds me of a story. It was at a Motorcycle Rally in Paso Robles, mostly the Harley crowd. We was at the hotel(yeah, yeah, we was being weenies and not camping) and needed beer. So we jump on the scooters and head up main street in town lookin for a place to get some brew. Yup, check point a few blocks up the street. Get in line and we get to front, cop shined his flashlight on us and asked a couple questions. We was cool, hadn't been drinkin much yet. Then I told him we were on a beer run and asked where the nearest place was to get some. Look on his face was priceless. An 'are you effin with me' kinda look. I guess my look was not an 'I'm effin with you look'. He said there's a 7/11 a few blocks up on the right.
 
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Huckster79 said:
Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…
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DOT enforcement can and does roll into rest areas unannounced and conduct random roadside inspections on trucks and their drivers that are parked there.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
DOT enforcement can and does roll into rest areas unannounced and conduct random roadside inspections on trucks and their drivers that are parked there.
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But those are state owned places and part of the highway system, not my office and private property. Commercial trucks probably don't have the same protections a private individual does while on public roadways.
 
EdFred said:
Commercial trucks probably don't have the same protections a private individual does while on public roadways.
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Considering that commercial trucks are regulated by federal code rather than at the state level, this is likely the case. Airplanes, even private ones, are also regulated by federal code rather than at the state level.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
DOT enforcement can and does roll into rest areas unannounced and conduct random roadside inspections on trucks and their drivers that are parked there.
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Commercial transport vs private. The DOT cannot roll up on a private citizen in a car and demand the same.
 
.

I found a picture of our local parking patrol vehicle .... it continually cruises up and down the streets .... scans every licence plate and records it .... also records the time and location .... so later on if a particular car has not moved within an hour it automatically issues a ticket which will come in the mail .

It is all done automatically by computer .... all the driver does is drive ... the system has access to all your car ownership information including your address .... I was told the unit (computer) can process 400,000 pieces of information per minute as it drives.

What concerns me most is our city council told us it was a city run system ... yet I see the vehicle parked in front of our police station. I bet they share information.

Big brother is here .

With the modern face recognition technology soon every person will be tracked the same way .

.
parking patrol.JPG
 
Huckster79 said:
This was mentioned in a reply on another thread but prompted my wonder…

Law enforcement is not constitutionally allowed to see me in a parking lot doing nothing wrong and roll up and inspect my vehicle and check my license and such…

however in my airplane they could….

Why is one considered out of bounds by the 4/5th amendment and the other isn’t?

Both driving and flying are privileges not rights, so that’s not it. Ones federal ones state regulated but I still don’t think the FBI could just do a vehicle inspection when I walk out of Walmart…

I’m just curious of what technicality allows for one but not the other…
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Not sure about U.S. law, but in Ontario I think the police still do random traffic stops during the R.I.D.E. (Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere) programme over the holidays.

I've been stopped at a R.I.D.E. checkpoint a few times, but I've never been ramp checked by Transport Canada or seen it happen to anyone else in 19 years of flying.
 
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