Another thing is pilots at their home drome, who know the terrain like they know the back off their hand, shouldn't be required to fly many miles in the opposite direction of where they are going when it is perfectly safe for them to do it another way.
"ODPs 'are' not assigned" is not "ODPs 'shall' not be assigned."
Some ODPs have requirements that are appropriate for big, fast aircraft, but unnecessary for, and beyond the capability of, little slow ones. I'm thinking of the climb gradient specified for Tahoe's Runway 36 departure. For a slow mover over a lake that big, finding a way to avoid hitting anything is not that hard. The time I did it, I just used the localizer for guidance and made sure that I avoided the side of the localizer course that was nearest the rocks.
Look at the top altitude for the climb gradient requirement. It’s about getting to the lake, not climbing over it.
Now that I look at it closer, it looks like the high climb gradient requirement only applies when the weather is lower than 300-1 3/8, so I take it back. That's not particularly onerous, IMO.
That "...'absolutely' necessary..." in the IPH reference seems a little extreme and is not necessarily consistent with ATC rules. Guess it would depend on what 'absolutely' means to you. I don't think that routinely issuing the ODP even though there isn't some traffic, right there, right now, is a bad thing. Doing it because there is likely to be some traffic there soon, even though it's not yet under that facilities control can be valid. In some busy areas, after releasing an airplane without specific Departure Instructions and allowing the pilot do a 'roll your own', by the time he's airborne it can be very likely there will be traffic that has to be jerked around to avoid that departure. Case in point in an area you would be familiar with. Ramona KRNM. There could be no traffic around there when the plane was released, but there could be soon comin' on in to Miramar. Probably not good to have a plane off Ramona hunting and pecking around on his own. Interesting thing about Ramona. Many years ago it was one of only two airports in the Country that had an ODP even though it didn't have an Instrument Approach. They were called IFR Departure Procedures then. I'd bet they issued the procedure every time regardless of what the traffic was 'right there, right now.'
Thank you for the answer, @luvflyin
I wouldn't necessarily say devolved. It's expanded out to other, but very definitely related to departure clearance things. Ah, the ol' tell em ya ain't got SIDS thang. Yup, say that and you won't have to worry about being assigned a SID. But ya better have your pencil out, sharpened and some space on a piece of paper(yeah, yeah, it's all EFBy IPADy don't need no stinkin pencil nowadays) because you may be copying a pretty long departure clearance. We've been talking about where to find ODP's and how tedious it can be searching for them in the TPP. There's another thing you see sometimes when you finally find it. Let's talk about that easiest of all departure. Fly Heading. What could be simpler. Well, you can't always just do it. You may not be able to climb fast enough to accept a 'fly heading' instruction. Along with takeoff minimums, departure procedure and obstacle notes, there sometimes is Diverse Vector Area. Here's one.
I wouldn't mind if AUS had a policy of assigned the ODP to every departure. At least assigning the ODP is an established procedure. My objection is to a policy of reminding the pilot of the ODP prior to issuing their IFR clearance. That isn't an established procedure and is not routinely done at other facilities.
I do think the process/verbiage has evolved somewhat over the 11+ years I’ve been flying out of here, and I just know what to anticipate hearing and doing regardless of the exact wording, good or bad.
Yeah. Point I was making is when there isn't traffic overhead but because of the nature of the 'busy' airspace, it's likely there will be by the time the departure gets in the air. And you addressed that with what you said about AUS. It can apply to departures off adjacent airports also that could conflict. Like, well, no ones rolling off that airport now, but there's likely to be soon, so just give the guys off the satellite airport the ODP and be done with it.
From what I've seen, that seems to be common in NORCAL also, especially in the SFO-SJC-OAK area. That's probably true in other busy areas too. In addition to the one north of CLT I know of, I've received the KONZ ODP as part of my clearance from Detroit TRACON. I don't know if that one is all the time or not. I suspect it is since it didn't even apply to me
The Palo Alto ODP takes you straight to San Jose International Airport, which is probably why they never assign it.
There's a CFI in the area who did a video for his students on copying clearances. It included assignment of this ODP. Maybe he made it up or maybe it was to get you to go away from SFO before vectors. The destination was northbound. Dunno since I don't fly in that area. You do.
Well, reasonable, but how would ATC know who's who? I fly fairly often and, the way the controllers speak to me, they don't realize 3R9 is my home field (they're absolutely polite but, for example, they always ask me if I need the phone number to cancel on the ground; the number I called to pick up the clearance earlier). Plus there are many pilots based here who are rusty IFR flyers at best, so if AUS was to base it on where the plane is based, even that wouldn't help.
In 30 years of being based at PAO, I've heard a lot of IFR departure clearances on Palo Alto Ground, and every one of them has been to fly heading 060 for radar vectors.
I don't think I saw that before (not saying it wasn't mentioned; it's me, not you). Based on location and the simple ODP, I'm going to take a wild guess. They want you to climb runway heading to 1700 before turning so they have time to positively identify you before you turn on course. It's for traffic management.
I'll definitely defer to you on that.
The post I replied to with that wasn't about ATC. It was about should ODP's be made mandatory for 91 Ops like they are for 135 and 121.
Aah. Didn’t catch that.
Maybe, Maybe not. If he didn't know, it's a sad training issue. If his attitude is, "they are not required for Part 91 so I don't bother checking," it's even sadder.
No one should ever be taking off into IMC unaware of an ODP for the departure runway. It’s a basic part of flying IFR. This is not some high level skill set. It should have been an intrinsic part of preflight planning during training to be an instrument qualified pilot. A safe transition from the terminal area to the en-route structure needs to occur on 100% of our departures. Knowledge of ODP’s is part of the planning process.
I don't think so. ODPs, and their predecessor, the IFR departure procedure, have been optional since I got my instrument rating in 1959.
I agree. And no one should ever operate on the wrong patient or remove the wrong kidney on the right patient but it happens - and has been reduced by implementing safeguards. And no airliner with onboard radar should try to land in a thunderstorm but it was happening until ATC procedures were revised (when’s the last time an airliner went down in a microburst?). The “belt and suspenders” for key activities, including airliner maintenance, etc., is why I don’t feel unsafe flying on pretty much any US major air carrier - but would think twice about flying on a third-world one.
I agree here too. The title of the thread asks if ODPs should be required. I mistakenly thought they were, based on my local experience, and am still scratching my head at the resistance here to the idea of AUS using an apparently local procedure in the interest of safety to do just that. With seemingly zero downside (staying on runway heading until 800ft AGL in IMC in The Hill Country is onerous? Not to me…). And despite the length of this thread, there have been no real suggestions for improving safety - just critiques of AUS’s attempt to do so. (We’ve also now learned AUS isn’t alone and the one at KVGT is much more involved).
One of the Laws of Learning is the Law of Exercise…that which is used regularly is best remembered.
Of course, PAO is unlikely to be typical of the whole of Northern California, since there are three airline airports surrounding the bay.
They should all be charted.
Absolutely agree. Hardly a panacea but definitely easier to find, easier to set up, and easier to fly.
Wrong site? You mean they might accidentally operate on me at a different hospital than the one I'm at?! That remote surgery stuff must be amazing!
They might take out your left kidney or replace your left knee when it was supposed to be the right side. It has definitely happened.
Here's an example of a the "no panacea."
For SIDs I will occasionally check them during planning a trip to/from a field near a Class B or big Class C where I think I may be assigned one (and I try to guess which one will apply) but I also know 1) If I’m going to be assigned one it’s most commonly via Ground/Clearance Delivery prior to taxi at a towered field, so there’s plenty of time to then look it up and load it (I know there are exceptions, such as departing from a non-towered field) and 2) The SID is for flow more than avoiding obstacles and they often quickly shortcut me even if one was assigned.
