Why are India's air force planes falling out of the sky?

Perhaps because unlike the airlines, the Indian military does not have enough foreigners flying their military aircraft?

I'm only half kidding.
 
I would suspect a combination of poor training and poor maintenance, coupled with politically motivated speeches! ;)
 
Culture and race go hand in hand. The crash of the South Korean airliner would be a classic example. The culture caused the crash.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Culture and race go hand in hand. The crash of the South Korean airliner would be a classic example. The culture caused the crash.
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The two do not always go together. I know people of other races, raised "overseas" from their racial homeland, who behave culturally like the country in which they live. I.e., Vietnamese over here who act American; Semites who behave British; etc.

I agree that culture is more of the driving force than race, per se.
 
I'm going with two causes:

1) They are flying equipment that is very unforgiving compared to modern aircraft. Most of their crashes have been Mig 21's, which are '60's era fighters with most of the unforgiving characteristics of the US century series aircraft which had poor accident rates.

2) The Indian AF probably doesn't train its pilots particularly well, nor are the pilots particularly experienced, nor do the aircraft receive the best maintenance.

Add challenging equipment to operational issues and you get a lot of crashes.
 
I blame the cows. I don't care that cows are sacred, you just can't let them fly fighter jets without proper training.....:rolleyes: :lol:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Perhaps because unlike the airlines, the Indian military does not have enough foreigners flying their military aircraft?

I'm only half kidding.
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Glad I wasn't the one that said it.

But yeah.... That.
 
I fly through and into India (Leaving tonight for an around the world trip which will include the trek through their airspace). A lot of it is culture, their caste system, their ATC, maintenance etc. I am in no way disparaging the Indian people. Many extremely smart and to higher degree than here very friendly people. Their ATC system is extremely out dated, unreliable and combined with their English accents AND their belief that if one doesn't understand them then they must say it louder and FASTER, cause more looking at each other and saying "What did they say?" than just about anywhere else in the world.
Now for actual encounters.
You do not get your ATC clearance (as it is in many other places in the world) until you are ready to push back from the gate. The ATC clearance might or might not contain a departure procedure but that is not a problem because it WILL be changed prior to takeoff and most likely again as you lift off and will be changed as you depart...my record was five different departure procedures prior to 2000 feet.
It seems to be a state law there that one must NOT listen to the radio to ensure no one else is talking when you come on the frequency.
Took a 15 minute verbal chastising from a controller because I addressed him as a wrong center name. Why did you call us ????? center over and over. I finally just told me to shut up.
They have the capability to use CPDLC communications but don't seem to trust it. (controller pilot data link comm)

Good things about Indian ATC.
They are so bad that when they had a mid air a few years ago, my company was finally forced to put TCAS on our airplanes....they paid off the FAA and got a loophole for us.

My favorite thing to say to my F/O's when transiting through Indian and they are growing extremely frustrated with the ATC system....
Number 1....Remember this....they have the Nuclear Bomb.
Number 2....If they can get a Mig in the air, do you really think they could find us?

For anyone that has flown into or out of Mumbai as a pilot or passenger....Rwy 27 resurfaced but the V1 bump is still there.
 
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I doubt Russian aircraft are stellar for their reliability. Add having to import Russian parts (frequently, those are old planes) and then the challenges in operating jet aircraft in the first place, and I can see it pretty easily. The Indians should make their own military gear. They have lots of smart people to design them, and could probably make bargain versions of everything that work really well.
 
Because most of their pilots also work in call centers?
 
I wonder if the pilot selection process in the Indian Air Force places too much weight on the applicant's family and political connections compared to his aptitude for training.

There is some of that in our military, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's even worse in other countries.
 
Dav8or said:
Maybe they bought the wrong brand and got what they paid for??:dunno:
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And.... When something breaks... They are usually on the phone with a tech support rep at a call center over in California...:D.........;)........
 
Because parts for the MiG-15 are getting hard to find?
 
Maybe they get tired of waiting for free headsets to show up and go flying without them?
 
kyleb said:
2) The Indian AF probably doesn't train its pilots particularly well, nor are the pilots particularly experienced, nor do the aircraft receive the best maintenance.
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Based on memoirs of Russian advisors who had to work in parallel with Indian instructors in e.g. Iraq, Indian training system was far superior to the Soviet system. It was essentially an exact copy of British practices. So, Indians are perhaps the most competent operators of Soviet flying hardware, period.

However, they have to push the envelope a lot, in part due to the high density altitude and poor weather in Kashmir.
 
steingar said:
The Indians should make their own military gear.
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You need to study the travails of the LCA program. It's a perfect display of India's system and the fate of domestic weapons systems in India. Promised to become fully operational in 2014 ;)

Even the mighty Chinese, who knocked out clones of F-22 and F-35 (J-31) are still unable to make a decent clone of AL-31F engine and continue to import thousands of those engines from Russia, and not for the lack of trying!
 
Because cowboys keep chasing them on horseback?
 
zaitcev said:
Based on memoirs of Russian advisors who had to work in parallel with Indian instructors in e.g. Iraq, Indian training system was far superior to the Soviet system....
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A good friend was an F-5 instructor pilot in Yemen for a while. The squadron next door was the schoolhouse for Sukhoi SU-7s. My buddy was not, to say the least, impressed with the quality of Russian training.

He did say the Sukhoi's were hell for stout, they could really take a licking and keep on ticking.
 
zaitcev said:
...Indian training system was far superior to the Soviet system. It was essentially an exact copy of British practices. So, Indians are perhaps the most competent operators of Soviet flying hardware, period.
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I have a quote clipped and saved somewhere from an Indian Air Force official during their new trainer selection who said (paraphrased), "We were more afraid of training in the **** aircraft than we were of flying in combat."

They've been making a remarkable and possibly somewhat alarming push to modernize recently and if you think they're not capable then you haven't been paying attention.

Nauga,
fangs out
 
Like MD-11 said, ATC in some of these places is just horrible. Haven't flown in India but the Middle East, the Balkans and some parts of SE Asia just plain suck. I used to train some of the military controllers in Thailand and Korea. Scary. Great people, loved working with them but they just don't have the training and equipment like we have in the US. Plus the English barrier just hinders efficiency over there. They do better when they speak their native tongue.
 
If you ever get a chance, read the book Viper Pilot. The author has some amusing stories about flying exchange F-16s in the Egyptian Air Force. Poor maintenance and pilot training all around. Had a flame out one time in the middle of an unrestricted climb.

Some of these foriegn countries look good on paper but are worlds behind our readiness and capabilities.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Culture and race go hand in hand. The crash of the South Korean airliner would be a classic example. The culture caused the crash.
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But they share a race with the North Chinese. Your statement is a non sequitur to relating culture to race, you linked culture to an effect.

The reason India's military aircraft are 'falling out of the sky' is because they have decided to allocate their resources elsewhere.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Culture and race go hand in hand. The crash of the South Korean airliner would be a classic example. The culture caused the crash.
Click to expand...

No they don't. Japanese would be considered from the same race as Koreans, but do not suffer from quite the same cultural issues that plagued Asiana.
 
I have friends who went through Navy intermediate and advanced jet training with Indians. I'm not sure if they were Air Force or Navy, but some of the stories I've heard combined with the aircraft they fly make a high loss rate unsurprising.
 
turbofan said:
I have friends who went through Navy intermediate and advanced jet training with Indians. I'm not sure if they were Air Force or Navy, but some of the stories I've heard combined with the aircraft they fly make a high loss rate unsurprising.
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I think they all did kingsville so I never flew with them (though had a lot of drinks with a group of them at 'hook a few years ago) but I agree with nauga. They are capable and well trained
 
Although almost 30 years ago I worked with Saudi Pilots going through Army Rotor wing training...all I can say is they just called "Allah's Will" on everything from preflight to weather to condition of the aircraft. Flying skills were marginal at best and made little attempt to understand the process...we just shuffled them along until graduation...they did not seem to care that they got the easy track or that their lack of competency would probably get them killed one day....
 
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