Who is PIC?

[stingray]

Dan it was YOU who said it wasn't your airplane. To me that implies that the plane either belongs to the other pilot or is under his control (e.g. he rented it, not you).



There was also nothing about you being asked to fly along vs begging a ride although I don't see that this changes much except that if another pilot really wants/needs your "help" then they might indeed be willing to comply with your requirements.

I took your initial statement to mean that you felt that anyone offering you an opportunity to fly with them would have to agree to let you be PIC and that's what I objected to. IMO in most situations this would be perceived as not only unacceptable but even bordering on insulting.

And your latest distinction regarding the notion that as long as the other pilot performed acceptably you wouldn't need to exercise your perogative by taking over the controls (forcibly or by consensus), that still presumes that the other pilot would agree to your terms in the first place, which is a big part of what I'm reacting to. OTOH I must give you credit for saying you'd work this out before any flight which is far more reasonable than any possible attempt to sort it out in the air.

As to the experience you described, I've gotta say that I expect that there are very few pilots out there who would force a passenger to endure illegal and unsafe operations if the pax insisted on being let out of the plane (on the ground please). And it wouldn't surprise me that such a pilot might agree to your terms before the flight and then rerfuse to honor the agreement in the air. In that case it seems to me that your position would offer nothing but downsides.

Could you restate your position with specific emphasis on the ownership issue? For instance if Greg offered you a ride in his C-195 would you request that he agree to let you be PIC and take a pass when he (inevitibly) refused?

Also please explain how you could insist on being PIC in an airplane you aren't legally entitled to be PIC in and/or when insurance won't cover you as PIC? Do you simply avoid all such possibilities?

Lance I will start with this original post.

Originally Posted by SkyHog
I'm curious about this, and I didn't want to hijack the other thread. I see this mentioned by quite a few people, and I've never actually had this conversation. What is the best way to go about having this discussion and coming to a comfortable answer. I'd like to see how everyone does this.

It seems that a blunt "I'm PIC, back off" would probably only guarantee that you'll not fly with that person again, while a "Do you mind if I'm PIC for this leg" will probably not instill the belief that you are PIC when the poop hits the fan.

What say y'all?

Maybe I just assumed that the plane was not owned by either pilot. I was just giving my "What say y'all." In my situations that I have been in. If there is ever a question it is because the plane is not owned by either pilot. I may have not been clear enough. Please note though that PIC is not Pilot at the Controls. Also I do not go on joy rides (Much). So the I don't get to ride along does not matter much to me. There are a lot of pilots out there that "got to ride along" that are not riding anymore. I think that making it known ahead of time may be hard for the other pilot but I think it is far more likely that when he does something you do not like you will just sit there and just grit your teeth rather than speak up at that point for fear of insulting him.

As far as ownership issues and getting a ride from someone just for fun or to get somewhere. If I would like a ride in Greg's 195 I would just say ahead of time no antics and nothing illegal. I would also say I am not a big fan of "Watch this".

Yes I avoid all such possibilities, as I mentioned it is the same reason I did not fly the big iron for 40 years of my life. It is not about how good the other pilot may be it is all my problem. (Phobia) I live with it.

I was in a car accident when I was 19 snow storm driver tried to pass a semi (two lane road) another semi coming in other direction. Driver decided he could make it between the two. At the last minute he figured he could not and swung over to hit the ditch. We hit the semi head on at 50 mph (Buick Riviera). It pushed us back 100 yards.

Other than the friendly ride here is my position.

Two pilots are taking a trip. How can each pilot have a reasonable amount of control. 1st pilot is Pilot at controls 2nd pilot is PIC. As long as first pilot does nothing dangerous or illegal he gets to fly the whole trip. Second pilot gets to say how the flight is conducted. What would it say about the first pilot if he said no I am PIC and pilot at the controls. (I don't trust you at all). If at any time the 1st pilot wants a break pilot two can fly the plane giving controls back to pilot one when he would like to resume.

I think this is what the poster was getting at.

Dan

 

[TMetzinger]

You know, on the surface I don't either. But I'm trying to think of the
circumstances where that might be a good idea.

* Maybe the owner/operator is IFR legal in terms of currency, but not
as proficient as they'd like for the operation so they want someone more
proficient along to help out?

* The owner/operator is flying an aircraft they're not totally comfortable
with even though they're technically legal to be PIC?

RT

Oh there are absolutely times when an owner pilot may want to INSIST on another pilot being PIC - you've listed some.

Put another way - nobody should ever get their nose out of joint when an owner/pilot INSISTS on being PIC of his own airplane. Which is why Dan might not get taken along by many owner/pilots if his mental illness (he SAID it was a phobia ) makes him insist on acting as PIC any time he flies.

Speaking for myself, if I'm ever in a position where I think taking the controls is key to my survival, and the other person doesn't WANT to relinquish them, then I will have to kill/disable the other person. (Gee I sound like Chuck Norris the Pilot). But aside from a training situation where the student freezes and may need his hand smacked, it's hard to imagine getting into such a situation at all.

 

[stingray]

Faith? Hahaha. This has nothing to do with faith. For 34 yrs now my flying
as been plenty safe and without incident.



You're not letting me fly my own plane .. you ??@$##*. That's the most
pompous arrogant thing I've ever heard. Your original post said "NOT MY
PLANE".

Why don't you clue us in on your qualifications to make a statement that
you should trump the PIC status of any one of us you might fly with? PPL?
Commercial?? Instrument?? CFI?? ATP??

Roger it is just a misunderstanding partially my fault. I though I was responding to my situation not everyone Else's. I do not go on joy rides so I have not much experience in what you are referring to. I get asked to go along as a pilot for CC or just practice quite a bit. I have no problem with this knowing I will not be flying the plane as long as I have final say in the quality of the flight PIC.

Having Comm, Inst, CFI does not give assurance of quality of flight. I had to correct the IFR pilot I took along while he was pilot in control at least twice if not three times. I know a CFI that has crashed twice because of pilot error. If I wanted to I could fill the pages with comm CFI and IFR pilots that are not longer with us because of preventable accidents. Half of which were just stupid. We are not talking about piloting skills, Pilot at the controls handles that. PIC is responsible for the safe outcome of the flight.

Again Roger I am not saying that if you offered me a ride I would insist that I be PIC. On the other hand if you wanted to fly from WI to CA and needed someone else to go alongI would have to be PIC but not Pilot on controls or I would not be able to go along. Again Roger I have tried to stress it is not about your pilot skills it has all to do with me. I only want a safe outcome for the flight. Not having to fly all those boring hours is just a plus.

You're not letting me fly my own plane .. you ??@$##*.

You need to distinguish Pilot at the Controls and Pilot in Command the two are very different.

Dan

 

[stingray]

Speaking for myself, if I'm ever in a position where I think taking the controls is key to my survival, and the other person doesn't WANT to relinquish them, then I will have to kill/disable the other person. (Gee I sound like Chuck Norris the Pilot). But aside from a training situation where the student freezes and may need his hand smacked, it's hard to imagine getting into such a situation at all.

I did not state it very well in my first post (Hind site is 20 20). The key to me is not ever getting to the situation that you need to take control. I did not mean that I go around grabbing controls from other pilots. I was refering there to individuals that I take up to practice. I tell them I do not mind as long as when I say "my plane" you let go.

Dan

 

[jesse]

I would have to be PIC but not Pilot on controls

And..if you're not qualified to be PIC?

There are plenty of combination's of pilot/airplane where they are *way* more qualified than you. You feeling that you are more qualified to be PIC is silly, especially considering how you legally couldn't be PIC in many.

For example--If I fly with Lance in his Baron he is *way* more qualified to be PIC. He is more experienced, IT IS HIS AIRPLANE, and I'm not even legally capable of being PIC.

That said, If I saw him busting airspace or busting an MDA on an approach I would gently say something to him (not that he would). Lance, would listen to what I said, and correct if it were true. We would both go on happily with our lives. There is nothing that says you can't point out a potentially fatal mistake to someone. You don't have to be the super-god-PIC to do that.

If you don't trust a pilot to listen to you informing them of a potentially fatal mistake they just made--you shouldn't be flying with them--period. There is no way I would let anyone in any airplane I flew if they demanded to be PIC and I was providing the airplane. That said--if they see something dangerous unfolding I'll listen and correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

MC Reminder -- please stick to the issues and leave personalities and insults out.

 

[poadeleted20]

Agreed. I just don't think it's objectionable for an operator who's a pilot to insist on also being the PIC.

Assuming s/he's qualified, yes, but it is entirely possible to be one without being the other, particularly if the "operator" is a corporation -- which can't be the PIC.

 

[Everskyward]

I do not go on joy rides so I have not much experience in what you are referring to. I get asked to go along as a pilot for CC or just practice quite a bit. I have no problem with this knowing I will not be flying the plane as long as I have final say in the quality of the flight PIC.

I think people are having trouble understanding because I don't think this scenario is common. Why would someone ask you to go along with them if you're going to insist on being PIC? What are you getting out of it if it's not pleasure (joyride)? What are they getting out of it? Are you talking about people who don't have the confidence to fly on their own or just want a second set of eyes? Who is providing the plane? If they are asking you to go along, the implication is that they are.

 

[stingray]

And..if you're not qualified to be PIC?

There are plenty of combination's of pilot/airplane where they are *way* more qualified than you. You feeling that you are more qualified to be PIC is silly, especially considering how you legally couldn't be PIC in many.

For example--If I fly with Lance in his Baron he is *way* more qualified to be PIC. He is more experienced, IT IS HIS AIRPLANE, and I'm not even legally capable of being PIC.

That said, If I saw him busting airspace or busting an MDA on an approach I would gently say something to him (not that he would). Lance, would listen to what I said, and correct if it were true. We would both go on happily with our lives. There is nothing that says you can't point out a potentially fatal mistake to someone. You don't have to be the super-god-PIC to do that.

If you don't trust a pilot to listen to you informing them of a potentially fatal mistake they just made--you shouldn't be flying with them--period. There is no way I would let anyone in any airplane I flew if they demanded to be PIC and I was providing the airplane. That said--if they see something dangerous unfolding I'll listen and correct.

Jesse I will try again to explain the first time I did not so good.

We were talking about two pilots flying a plane that either could fly from original poster. I would rather be PIC and not fly the plane than be sole manipulator of the controls. You have to trust me that I am not going to say "My plane" for anything other than an illegal or dangerous situation. So it is really up to you, fly the plane correct and everyone is happy. I have also added that I do not like to fly the big iron either. They are far more qualified to fly it than I am but I still do not like not being in control of the outcome. Would I hop in a plane with Lance? Most likely, but I would not just go on joy rides for no reason. I tried really hard to say that I knew I was not he best pilot in the world and it was not about that. I tried to say that I do not really care who fly's the plane as long as I have the final say on the outcome of the flight. I was using My experiences as a pilot not what everyone else does. I agree I did not explain it all that well. I will add though that not everyone understands PIC vs sole manipulator. I think it added to the confusion.

Dan

 

[jesse]

Jesse I will try again to explain the first time I did not so good.

We were talking about two pilots flying a plane that either could fly from original poster. I would rather be PIC and not fly the plane than be sole manipulator of the controls. You have to trust me that I am not going to say "My plane" for anything other than an illegal or dangerous situation. So it is really up to you, fly the plane correct and everyone is happy. I have also added that I do not like to fly the big iron either. They are far more qualified to fly it than I am but I still do not like not being in control of the outcome. Would I hop in a plane with Lance? Most likely, but I would not just go on joy rides for no reason. I tried really hard to say that I knew I was not he best pilot in the world and it was not about that. I tried to say that I do not really care who fly's the plane as long as I have the final say on the outcome of the flight. I was using My experiences as a pilot not what everyone else does. I agree I did not explain it all that well. I will add though that not everyone understands PIC vs sole manipulator. I think it added to the confusion.

Dan

To each their own--it sounds to me like you still have the same view--and that is the view of a person that I will not let in any airplane I'm flying.

I would also step out of any airplane you stepped into. Sorry.

Jesse

 

[stingray]

I think people are having trouble understanding because I don't think this scenario is common. Why would someone ask you to go along with them if you're going to insist on being PIC? What are you getting out of it if it's not pleasure (joyride)? What are they getting out of it? Are you talking about people who don't have the confidence to fly on their own or just want a second set of eyes? Who is providing the plane? If they are asking you to go along, the implication is that they are.

That is how I fly with others. They do not want to go on a long cc alone. Older pilots want to go up and fly but would rather go with someone else. The comment "My plane" came just off the top of my head because lately I have been flying with someone who is learning (CFI encouraged it) I always say "my plane means let go". Hind site is 20 20 I should have explaned it better. All I was trying to say was You fly the plane but don't do anything illegal or dangerous or I will ask for the controls. By the way it is asking not taking "my plane" means I am asking for the controls.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I think I did as well, But I think everyone's problem with your position is that in the post I replied to you stated that you were talking about planes that were not your own and I and I think others as you saying you were going to be the PIC in any plane you flew. If that is the case I agree with some others that you A. aren't going to be flying with me in my plane and B. you are going to miss out on some learning experiences because no matter how good and expereinced you may be you ain't the best out there and you don't have to be flying with the best to learn something and that might include some lower hour pilot that is unwilling to give up PIC just because you think you know better.

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone. When I was first learning I flew with others and some of the mistakes that they made instilled this in me. A CFII that I used to fly with has crashed twice (Pilot error). I do not come off as the worlds best pilot because I know that I am not, but if I am going to die I want it to be my fault. It may seem rude at first but once you let them know that it is a personal thing and has nothing to do with their piloting skills they understand.

Tell me how I do not know that there are better pilots out there than me. I freely admitted it. A better pilot does not mean a safer pilot. I hire a CFI or have someone else come along when I go places that I might learn something. I use my plane and I am PIC. I can learn just as much as the next guy and I do. Even in your plane and you as Sole manipulaor on the controls why would I not learn anything. I am just sitting there not touching anything. What your saying is I have to trust you to fly the plane (Flying Skills) but you will not trust me to not say "My plane" as long as you fly in a safe and legal manner.

Dan

 

[stingray]

To each their own--it sounds to me like you still have the same view--and that is the view of a person that I will not let in any airplane I'm flying.

I would also step out of any airplane you stepped into. Sorry.

Jesse

My view is that I will only fly if the flight is conducted in a safe and legal manner.

This would not be your view?

Dan

 

[Everskyward]

To me it is simple I do not trust anyone.

I think this is the problem people have. Trust needs to go both ways. Why should they trust you if you don't trust them? I understand your feeling even though I don't share it, but I can see how it might preclude you from flying with a whole lot of people. To each his own, I guess.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone.

What happens when the other person says "my plane" to you?

FWIW, my brother and I always used the "whoever decides this is a bad idea first wins" approach - either we both were OK with what we were flying into or it was a 180.

 

[stingray]

What happens when the other person says "my plane" to you?

FWIW, my brother and I always used the "whoever decides this is a bad idea first wins" approach - either we both were OK with what we were flying into or it was a 180.

If we agreed upon it ahead of time and I gave them a reason to say it, it would be "hands off".

The point would be to not give them a reason. If I am doing something unsafe and or illegal why would that person not have the right to protect themselves.

Lance's name has come up a few times and eveyone knows him so lets just say that I would like to go to Ohare. I would not be comfortable doing it and I would like to have someone come along in the Viking. I ask Lance to come along and he says "I can go but I would have to be PIC for the flight. You can be sole manipulator of the controls but if you do anything unsafe or illegal I will have to take over". All I have to do now is conduct a safe and legal flight. Lance is doing me a favor by coming along. Why would I not give him the advantage to protect himself if something was not safe. All I have to do is fly the plane in a safe and legal manner.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I think this is the problem people have. Trust needs to go both ways. Why should they trust you if you don't trust them? I understand your feeling even though I don't share it, but I can see how it might preclude you from flying with a whole lot of people. To each his own, I guess.

I think it is both ways, I am trusting you to control the plane flying wise. You are trusting me that I will not ask for the control if you do not do anything unsafe or illegal.

You don't share it because you have not been scared to death. Having someone else at the wheel as your heading right at a semi doing 50 mph will do a lot for your understanding.

Flying along and going right through a cloud rather than going over or under it.

Taking off way over gross.

Busting airspace.

Flying over mountains low on fuel.

Heading right into a heavy squall that ATC just warned you about and not deviating quick enough.

Not using vectors that ATC has given you at night in bad weather because you have just passed your IFR test and it could be fun to do an approach.

Pulling up quick because you think it's funny.

flying really low because well your really good.

You just have not been scared enough yet, lets hope you make it past all the close calls.

Dan

 

[Everskyward]

You just have not been scared enough yet, lets hope you make it past all the close calls.

I don't think you know anything about what I've done or not done. Besides, people react differently to the same situation.

 

[GigG601XL]

Even in your plane and you as Sole manipulaor on the controls why would I not learn anything. I am just sitting there not touching anything. What your saying is I have to trust you to fly the plane (Flying Skills) but you will not trust me to not say "My plane" as long as you fly in a safe and legal manner.

Dan

It all boils down to you requiring final authority and that makes you the PI COMMAND. Why do you think you are more qualified to have that authority than everyone else you might fly with?

Let me give you a scenerio. Let's say we are hanger neighbors. I own, let's say a Cirrus and you are thinking about buying one and have never flown in one. We decide to go fly mine so you can see how you like it. Do you think I would be unreasonable to deny you PIC authority on the flight?

 

[gismo]

Lance's name has come up a few times and eveyone knows him so lets just say that I would like to go to Ohare. I would not be comfortable doing it and I would like to have someone come along in the Viking. I ask Lance to come along and he says "I can go but I would have to be PIC for the flight. You can be sole manipulator of the controls but if you do anything unsafe or illegal I will have to take over". All I have to do now is conduct a safe and legal flight. Lance is doing me a favor by coming along. Why would I not give him the advantage to protect himself if something was not safe. All I have to do is fly the plane in a safe and legal manner.

My approach would be like "Cap'n Geoffrey" and his brother (who I happened to go flying with yesterday BTW). To fly with you to ORD (or anywhere else) when you wanted me along for "support" I'd simply ask beforehand that you agree that we won't do anything that either of us is uncomfortable with. In fact, I'd likely not agree let alone desire to be PIC on that flight with you, for one thing chances are I don't qualify to act as PIC per your insurer and besides that, IMO one shouldn't act as PIC when another pilot is flying without CFI training except under very controlled circumstances.

I believe the problem I'm having with your approach is that you appear to think that agreeing to let you act as PIC and to let you take over if you don't like what's happening is about the same thing as Cap'n G offered but I see them as two very different concepts.

 

[markb5900]

Exactly Stingray. What YOU may think isn't safe may be PERFECTLY safe to do based on YOUR pilot experience.
If someone doesn't fly the PERFECT pattern and you think that isn't safe are you going to "claim" PIC duties then?

I HAVE been in a situation where I had to tell (not take control) a pilot I was with that what he wanted to do was STUPID and I wasn't going to let him kill me. I DID NOT "take" PIC authority and the flight ended just fine.

Mark B

 

[stingray]

It all boils down to you requiring final authority and that makes you the PI COMMAND. Why do you think you are more qualified to have that authority than everyone else you might fly with?

Let me give you a scenerio. Let's say we are hanger neighbors. I own, let's say a Cirrus and you are thinking about buying one and have never flown in one. We decide to go fly mine so you can see how you like it. Do you think I would be unreasonable to deny you PIC authority on the flight?

Not at all, totally different situation. I am asking you for a favor. I will however tell you that I do not like antics, illegal or unsafe operations. I will pick a nice day that I am comfortable with.

Same thing but we rent a 182 and you want to go on a long CC. You do not want to go alone and ask me to go along. I am going to let you fly left seat and have the controls as long as I can keep the flight safe and legal. Tell me how I am not trusting you. If I did not think you were going to keep it safe and legal I would not even get in, but just incase I want it known ahead of time that if I say "we are not going to fly through that cloud" we will be going over or around it.

I do not think that it is so much a qualification as it is a fear factor on my part of not being in control of a situation. I want to know that the flight that I am taking is going to be conducted in a safe manner. I do not have a problem with not going. And I have said over and over I am not being "better than everyone else". I am just protecting myself from someone doing something stupid in a plane. All you have to do keep control is fly in a safe manner.

Dan

 

[stingray]

My approach would be like "Cap'n Geoffrey" and his brother (who I happened to go flying with yesterday BTW). To fly with you to ORD (or anywhere else) when you wanted me along for "support" I'd simply ask beforehand that you agree that we won't do anything that either of us is uncomfortable with. In fact, I'd likely not agree let alone desire to be PIC on that flight with you, for one thing chances are I don't qualify to act as PIC per your insurer and besides that, IMO one shouldn't act as PIC when another pilot is flying without CFI training except under very controlled circumstances.

I believe the problem I'm having with your approach is that you appear to think that agreeing to let you act as PIC and to let you take over if you don't like what's happening is about the same thing as Cap'n G offered but I see them as two very different concepts.

Please try and understand that the comment I made was from flying with unqualified pilots lately (Pilots that asked me to come along because they were not sure of themselves.) I did not explain it well I am sorry. I would not go up to you and say "My plane" I would however have a good understanding before hand on how the flight will go.

It still comes down to someone else asking me to ride along for support. I can do this as long as you agree that if I do not want to do something it doesn't get done. If you do not trust my judgement why am I along.

We have gotten way off track here because the original poster was talking about a common plane between two pilots. Not a plane that was familiar to one but not the other. He just wanted to know how others went about this kind of flight. The way I do it is to let the other pilot fly left seat and manipulate the controls while I have final authority over the flight. My reasoning here is I can do more good making sure that the flight stays on tract and out of harms way by not having to work the controls. Also I fly very well from the right seat. Now there are two pilots in the plane that are comfortable flying from where they are seated. Most pilots like to fly, I let them. I plan the route and fuel stops. I make sure that we have all frequ at hand. I constantly know the winds and weather. I do all the things that no one else likes to do. It is the other pilots job to keep the plane right side up and headed in the right direction, and I trust him to do that. He trusts me to keep us out of harms way. There is a reason I am asked to go over and over. I would not be asked to go as often if I said I want to fly all the time.

Dan

 

[stingray]

Exactly Stingray. What YOU may think isn't safe may be PERFECTLY safe to do based on YOUR pilot experience.
If someone doesn't fly the PERFECT pattern and you think that isn't safe are you going to "claim" PIC duties then?

I HAVE been in a situation where I had to tell (not take control) a pilot I was with that what he wanted to do was STUPID and I wasn't going to let him kill me. I DID NOT "take" PIC authority and the flight ended just fine.

Mark B

Lets say maybe it is safe, but there are other ways of doing it that are just as safe ones that I am familiar with. Where is the harm in doing a maneuver the other way that the pilot is also qualified to do. Maybe I don't think the maneuver is safe even though the pilot has done it many times. This falls into the "watch this", "I want to show you this". I really do not care to see it. If I want to see it I can hire a CFI and practice it.

I do not believe you can "take" PIC in flight. This has to be agreed upon before hand. In actuality you did take PIC by letting him know that you were not going to let him do it. That is what PIC is. What you did was exercise a right of the PIC to the sole manipulator of the plane. Same thing I have been saying all along.

Dan

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

My approach would be like "Cap'n Geoffrey" and his brother (who I happened to go flying with yesterday BTW).

Yea, but he's a lot better pilot than I am.

 

[GigG601XL]

Not at all, totally different situation. I am asking you for a favor. I will however tell you that I do not like antics, illegal or unsafe operations. I will pick a nice day that I am comfortable with.

You keep moving the bar in this discussion. At least you are moving it in the right direction though.

It comes down to this. It still seems to come down to this. If I fly with another pilot it is decided who is PIC on the ground. I've flown with PICs that had every where from 1 hour after they got their PP to pilots with tens of thousands of hours. The funny thing is I've learned things from both ends of the spectrum.

If you aren't doing this that is completely your right. But you are going to miss out on some learning expereinces and miss out flying in some neat planes. I've gotten to fly a whole bunch of planes some of which I was in no way qualified to fly PIC. But as you said you don't go joy flying so maybe it doesn't matter to you. I think that is kind of sad.

My Grandfather who was an Army Air Corp pilot in WWII and a corporate pilot and parttime flight instructor until the illness that ended up taking his life never missed the chance to fly with someone on a joy flight and only when asked was he PIC. Including his last flight which was with me who at the time had exactly 20 minutes logged after I did my PP check ride.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Please try and understand that the comment I made was from flying with unqualified pilots lately (Pilots that asked me to come along because they were not sure of themselves.)

Pilots who are unsure of themselves and pilots who are training and pilots who are in situations in which they may have little experience may want to (a) have someone act as PIC or (b) retain PIC authority but delegate emergency authority to someone else (which is not the same thing).

But that is not what you have been saying and even when you have said that you weren't expressing it properly, your responses to others suggest that you have been expressing exactly what you mean.

Frankly, I trust me more than I trust you. I even trust me to know when I need to ask another pilot on board for input or assistance and perhaps delegate some duties.

I understand your viewpoint and where you are coming from.

But you're not getting in my airplane with an agreement that you get to override my decisions.

 

[stingray]

You keep moving the bar in this discussion. At least you are moving it in the right direction though.

It comes down to this. It still seems to come down to this. If I fly with another pilot it is decided who is PIC on the ground. I've flown with PICs that had every where from 1 hour after they got their PP to pilots with tens of thousands of hours. The funny thing is I've learned things from both ends of the spectrum.

If you aren't doing this that is completely your right. But you are going to miss out on some learning expereinces and miss out flying in some neat planes. I've gotten to fly a whole bunch of planes some of which I was in no way qualified to fly PIC. But as you said you don't go joy flying so maybe it doesn't matter to you. I think that is kind of sad.

My Grandfather who was an Army Air Corp pilot in WWII and a corporate pilot and parttime flight instructor until the illness that ended up taking his life never missed the chance to fly with someone on a joy flight and only when asked was he PIC. Including his last flight which was with me who at the time had exactly 20 minutes logged after I did my PP check ride.

I think it is sad. It was fun going along with others. But given my history it is just not worth it. Maybe I am just not lucky but when each time I get into a plane with someone else and have things done that are either unsafe and or illegal I have to draw the line somewhere. Am I supposed to wait until I get hurt to make that decision? I thought that it is a fair compromise "You fly, I decide how safe". This is not me asking you for a ride. This is you asking me to go along. That is the part that I did not make clear in the first post. I still do not think you grasp the PIC term. You can learn just as much from either pilot 2 hours to 10,000 hrs without either being PIC all they have to do is be Sole manipulator of the controls.

I will agree with you and everyone else it would be rude of me to demand that I will be PIC if I asked for a ride. That never even crossed my mind because I never ask for rides, well not never I got a ride in a Cougar last summer but it was a short pattern flight on a nice day.

I took the grandkids to school this morning. 5 mile trip, two lane county road. School bus followed by 6 cars in my lane. Half mile up snow plow coming toward us. (This is true) The car in front of me pulls out and tries to pass the car in front of it. That car did not like that so he sped up. First car goes faster and pulls in. Remember there is no where to go there is a school bus plus 5 other cars. Two minutes later he pulls into the school parking lot. He saved maybe 5 sec of time by putting everyone on that road at risk. Am I just that unlucky? Or does everyone else just ignore it. I do not care if he was Mario Andriette I am not getting in that car.

Dan

 

[stingray]

Pilots who are unsure of themselves and pilots who are training and pilots who are in situations in which they may have little experience may want to (a) have someone act as PIC or (b) retain PIC authority but delegate emergency authority to someone else (which is not the same thing).

But that is not what you have been saying and even when you have said that you weren't expressing it properly, your responses to others suggest that you have been expressing exactly what you mean.

Frankly, I trust me more than I trust you. I even trust me to know when I need to ask another pilot on board for input or assistance and perhaps delegate some duties.

I understand your viewpoint and where you are coming from.

But you're not getting in my airplane with an agreement that you get to override my decisions.

It is, see my last post.

Frankly, I trust me more than I trust you.

Why wouldn't you. And if you asked me to go along on a trip I would let you fly for that very reason. And since I do not know you all I ask is that you afford me the the same trust that if you do not fly in a safe and legal manner we put the plane on the ground. If you start heading over the mountains on low fuel or through restricted air space you either stop or give me the plane.

But you're not getting in my airplane with an agreement that you get to override my decisions.

You are taking the tone that you hate me before we get off the ground. Why not just ask, What would require you to take over? My response would be just keep the flight safe and legal. How would you treat a passenger? If you were doing something that made them uncomfortable would you just keep doing it because you are the PIC? You have done it a thousand times and it is safe. You know there is another way to do it but this is how you like to do it.

I have no problem not getting in, I was asked to go and declined, no harm feelings. It is my decission. as I said in the other post I am not so rude as to ask for a ride then demand. It was not how the poster put the problem. It was a common plane among two pilots.

Dan

 

[RogerT]

Flying along and going right through a cloud rather than going over or under it.

What cloud? Was that a cloud?

Pulling up quick because you think it's funny.

Yeeee hhhaaaaawww.

flying really low because well your really good.

It's called the "river run".

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And since I do not know you all I ask is that you afford me the the same trust that if you do not fly in a safe and legal manner we put the plane on the ground.

Dan,

Part of my standard briefing is that "If there comes a point where you're not having fun any more, let me know and we'll land." So I'll happily agree to that.

I will NOT happily agree to relinquish the controls and have you land my airplane.

 

[stingray]

Dan,

Part of my standard briefing is that "If there comes a point where you're not having fun any more, let me know and we'll land." So I'll happily agree to that.

I will NOT happily agree to relinquish the controls and have you land my airplane.

I understand completely.

So we are on a trip 500 miles from home that you asked me to come along on. You want to cut across the Grand Canyon with minimum fuel. I say I'd rather not. You stop and let me out 500 miles from home. (Thanks a lot)

I know you would not do that but this is my point. I have been in a plane with people I really trust and they have done stupid things. Yes I can get out but I was asked to go along. Now I'm 500 miles from home and have to find a way back. Why, because I was doing someone a favor by riding along. This is not a one time thing, I can count more times that pilots did things unsafe and or illegal than I can that they flew a safe trip.

Asking for a ride is not what the original poster was saying. He was talking about how to handle a trip with two pilots and how they share the flying. That is not the same as asking for a ride in your plane.

Dan

 

[inav8r]

You know, after reading this thread: I don't think there's a pilot on this forum who wouldn't go out of their way to make me feel comfortable if I were flying with them. I believe if I brought up any concern, or felt unsafe, or didn't think something was quite right that we could discuss it and get me comfortable and/or the situation addressed right quick.

If I ever jump in an airplane with a pilot who doesn't - it'll be the last time.

 

[stingray]

You know, after reading this thread: I don't think there's a pilot on this forum who wouldn't go out of their way to make me feel comfortable if I were flying with them. I believe if I brought up any concern, or felt unsafe, or didn't think something was quite right that we could discuss it and get me comfortable and/or the situation addressed right quick.

If I ever jump in an airplane with a pilot who doesn't - it'll be the last time.

I totally agree with the first part and that would be great if we were flying with just the people on this forum.:smile:

I totally agree with the second part. Now ask yourself after not getting back into a plane with say 6 different pilots in say 3 years and only one of the other pilots you flew with would you get back in to their plane would you start to think, maybe I need to rethink how I fly with other pilots the first time before it is my last time.

Dan

 

[midlifeflyer]

But you're not getting in my airplane with an agreement that you get to override my decisions.

You are taking the tone that you hate me before we get off the ground.

How am I doing that? By insisting that you are not the final authority in my airplane?

Why not just ask, What would require you to take over? My response would be just keep the flight safe and legal. How would you treat a passenger? If you were doing something that made them uncomfortable would you just keep doing it because you are the PIC? You have done it a thousand times and it is safe. You know there is another way to do it but this is how you like to do it.

Talk about hating someone before leaving the ground. You are making the assumption that by reserving final decision-making authority to myself, I will automatically and completely disregard anyone else's input or concerns. That's a huge leap, but I guess you're projecting a bit since the tone of your posts is exactly that - you get to make the final decision on what's legal and what's safe and require the other pilot to bow to your absolute authority.

btw, when I fly with friends who are pilots, the rule we usually follow is that he who is the most chicken wins.

 

[stingray]

How am I doing that? By insisting that you are not the final authority in my airplane?Talk about hating someone before leaving the ground. You are making the assumption that by reserving final decision-making authority to myself, I will automatically and completely disregard anyone else's input or concerns. That's a huge leap, but I guess you're projecting a bit since the tone of your posts is exactly that - you get to make the final decision on what's legal and what's safe and require the other pilot to bow to your absolute authority.

btw, when I fly with friends who are pilots, the rule we usually follow is that he who is the most chicken wins.

Mark I think that this whole thing was taken out of context. I was responding to the original poster on how I handle a flight when two pilots are going somewhere. What I tried to say (and maybe I did not say it very well) That I will let you have the controls (fly the whole time) all I want is final authority on how the flight is handled. I have explained this in detail It is not about the other pilot it is about me I would rather just not go. I have also explained that I never said that I was a better pilot in piloting skills or ADM. All I said that if I go along I want to make sure that nothing happens that I do not approve of. The only way this would happen is if I had final authority over the flight. I really did not see the call of everyone saying "Well your not getting in my plane then". If the poster would have said "How do you handle it if you ask someone for a ride in their airplane". My response would not have been the same. But that is how everyone responded to my post.

If I am taking a trip with someone and they would rather not let me be PIC in their airplane I could just say let's take mine then, I'll be PIC and you do all the flying. After all here would be that opportunity to learn as well as fly a different (Maybe) plane. We can take the Viking, a 150, a Taylorcraft, a 170B, a 172, or I have been checked out in a 182RG and can rent that, by next summer I should have a 185 on floats available. Surely there is something in that lot that you would be comfortable flying.

By the way when you think about it it is the exact same thing you say you do. If your friend is flying and he does something you do not like you win and he stops. He is not going to do anything he does not like. You do not have the conversation ahead of time and where does that leave you.

I did not just wake up one morning and decide this, it took time of having pilots do things that I was not comfortable with. I will post them in open forum. I will however PM you you can look them over and decide, well maybe Dan has a point, or I think he is over reacting.

The things that scare me the most is that they are done so as-a-matter-of-factually, like what's wrong with that. Everyone keeps saying that I have a higher than thou attitude, I am saying that I have been disappointed enough in the ADM of the pilots I have flown with. Are you saying that in order for me to be a stand up guy I have to continue to trust other pilots no matter what?

Dan

 

[jmaynard]

Dan, I'd be happy to fly with you in my airplane, but - and this is not intended to denigrate your flying abilities - you don't know diddly about flying it, and you will not be able to fly it safely without at least a bit of a checkout. (The elevator is very sensitive and responsive.) Do you honestly expect me to take you flying in it under the conditions you list? I, too, operate under the "most chicken pilot wins" rule. All you have to do is say "I'm not comfortable with doing that", and we won't. No muss, no fuss, no angst.

If you'd started out with that approach, there's not a person on here who'd argue. By saying "I'm going to be PIC, period", you came across as unnecessarily confrontational. That's not a good attitude to take into any cockpit, no matter what kind of airplane, no matter how much experience you have, and no matter who's doing the flying.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Mark I think that this whole thing was taken out of context.

And I think you misunderstand me. I don't think you are an evil person; just one who lays out conditions that I find unacceptable in a passenger or pilot I am going to share a flight with.

That I will let you have the controls (fly the whole time) all I want is final authority on how the flight is handled.

I'm not sure exactly how one takes that out of context.

I was responding to the original poster on how I handle a flight when two pilots are going somewhere.

Yes. I didn't see anything in the post about being asked to come along because the pilot felt out of his depth or rusty or whatever - just a simple flight of two buddies going out to get a hamburger.

 

[stingray]

And I think you misunderstand me. I don't think you are an evil person; just one who lays out conditions that I find unacceptable in a passenger or pilot I am going to share a flight with.

And I have no problem with that Mark, I would just rather not go along without any hurt feelings at all.

I tried to explain in the first post even, that it was not about you or your ability to fly the plane. I have been burned before and I am not going to get burned again. I find it the same "unacceptable" that you do. I can no longer get in a plane (under certain circumstances) that I do not have control over the outcome. It is easy for you to say "When you are uncomfortable let me know and we will land, or I will stop doing what I am doing", but the outcome of that statement has not happened to me. Just the opposite, we just keep going.

Respectfully Dan

 

[gprellwitz]

And I have no problem with that Mark, I would just rather not go along without any hurt feelings at all.

I tried to explain in the first post even, that it was not about you or your ability to fly the plane. I have been burned before and I am not going to get burned again. I find it the same "unacceptable" that you do. I can no longer get in a plane (under certain circumstances) that I do not have control over the outcome. It is easy for you to say "When you are uncomfortable let me know and we will land, or I will stop doing what I am doing", but the outcome of that statement has not happened to me. Just the opposite, we just keep going.

Respectfully Dan

But Dan, if you won't trust someone when they agree beforehand that they will turn around, how can you then trust them when they say they'll relinquish control to you under the same circumstances? Either you trust their word or you don't. If you don't, and you're still willing to fly with them, it means that either the issue wasn't really that important or you are prepared to use other means to secure control of the aircraft.

What your position appears to do for you is allow you to say after the fact that the pilot flying agreed that you were to be acting PIC before the flight started and before you attempted to wrest physical control of the aircraft from them.

The corollary to this is that if something does happen, busting airspace as in your example, the pilot flying would be required to tell the FAA that (s)he was not acting PIC but that you were. You would then corroborate that, and it would be up to the FAA to decide if they felt that was in fact the case.