Who is PIC?

[SkyHog]

.....

 

[gprellwitz]

I'm curious about this, and I didn't want to hijack the other thread. I see this mentioned by quite a few people, and I've never actually had this conversation. What is the best way to go about having this discussion and coming to a comfortable answer. I'd like to see how everyone does this.

It seems that a blunt "I'm PIC, back off" would probably only guarantee that you'll not fly with that person again, while a "Do you mind if I'm PIC for this leg" will probably not instill the belief that you are PIC when the poop hits the fan.

What say y'all?

Leslie and I deal with the question just about every flight. We try to switch off on the legs, and PIC sits left seat, especially since neither of us has much (any) experience right seat.

If I'm flying with someone else, it's basically whoever provides the plane is PIC unless something is said explicitly about it. And, if I'm providing the plane, I need to be PIC because I'm not authorized to let anyone outside the club act as PIC. I may give them some loggable time, but I've got to be acting.

 

[gprellwitz]

Is this just for who is logging, or who is acting? And in all honesty, do you guys think there would be any grapple for control should something break?

Except for when we're doing safety pilot work, for us logging generally = acting. See my edit above for when we're flying with others.

 

[stingray]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone. When I was first learning I flew with others and some of the mistakes that they made instilled this in me. A CFII that I used to fly with has crashed twice (Pilot error). I do not come off as the worlds best pilot because I know that I am not, but if I am going to die I want it to be my fault. It may seem rude at first but once you let them know that it is a personal thing and has nothing to do with their piloting skills they understand.

Dan

 

[Ted]

I've never had a problem with this. It's pretty much whoever's left seat is PIC. If someone's safety piloting, if that person says "My plane" then you relinquish the controls and take off your foggles. It works out well. Even when I've flown with the Mooney's owner, it's been simple, usually one of us flies one way and the other flies the other way. If I'm with my instructor, the plane is his if he ever asks for/takes it.

Only real exceptions have been if I'm on a specific time building mission and am therefore trying to get as many hours out of the flight as possible, and I explain this at the outset.

If someone who I didn't have flight experience with (or else some decent level of assurance that that person was a better pilot than me, and knew the plane better) gave me the "If I say 'my plane' you relinquish controls immediately" thing before getting in, that person wouldn't be getting in the plane with me. There are certain people I have no problem with handing the controls off to, but I have to know that off the bat. If I have concerns about the person wanting to try to take controls from me and think that would cause a problem, simple answer - don't let them in the plane.

Generally it's a non-issue, though, as the people sitting in the right seat are either my instructor or non-pilots. Or dogs, but the dogs haven't tried to fly yet.

 

[AuntPeggy]

It is fairly simple. A statement like, "I'm flying today" or "I'm not flying today" pretty much starts or even ends the discussion. Since Hubby likes to fly from the right seat, we might go on to discuss who sits in the left seat. Likewise, a statement of "my plane" transfers authority.

The worst scenario came when a passenger phoned Hubby to ask whether he could come along on one of my flights. We agreed he could come. Then he made such a fuss about seating that I became quite angry, then made the decision that Hubby should fly because it had gotten out of hand. But, I have never agreed again to have that passenger aboard when I fly.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is this just for who is logging, or who is acting?

Logging is governed by different rules (principally 61.51). Since there are times the PIC cannot log PIC time, times the non-PIC can, and times both can, that's an entirely separate issue from deciding who has "final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight." By the rules, the PIC can occupy any control seat ("unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs" -- 91.105(a)(1)), so left/right is a convention, not a rule.

 

[Ted]

The worst scenario came when a passenger phoned Hubby to ask whether he could come along on one of my flights. We agreed he could come. Then he made such a fuss about seating that I became quite angry, then made the decision that Hubby should fly because it had gotten out of hand. But, I have never agreed again to have that passenger aboard when I fly.

What's also bad is when you have a passenger who insists on "helping". I had one of those who was playing with my radios, and created more work for me because he was used to a 430 and KX170B as opposed to the weird digital front that was in the Archer. This was not welcome. When I told him to stop, he insisted he was helping and wouldn't.

Said person is not welcome in my plane anymore.

 

[gismo]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone. When I was first learning I flew with others and some of the mistakes that they made instilled this in me. A CFII that I used to fly with has crashed twice (Pilot error). I do not come off as the worlds best pilot because I know that I am not, but if I am going to die I want it to be my fault. It may seem rude at first but once you let them know that it is a personal thing and has nothing to do with their piloting skills they understand.

Dan

Dan, I'd be surprised if any experienced pilots would agree to this, I certainly wouldn't. There's just no way I'm going to relenquish control unless I feel that's in my best interest. First of all, without factoring in the difference between our general experience I can't see how you could expect to have the same familiarity with my airplanes that I do. AFaIK you don't even have a multi engine or instrument rating so even if I agreed to let you take over, I'd still be legally PIC and responsible for whatever you did. You also aren't covered by my insurance. IMO if you "require" that any pilot who let's you ride in their airplane to agree to allow your taking over if you feel the need, I don't think you'll be getting too many rides.

 

[sba55]

Rod Machado wrote a good article on exactly this topic. It's worth a read. I say something very close to what he does:

“I will, of course, be the pilot in command on this flight. If you see anything that doesn’t look right, please feel free to let me know but do not do or touch anything without getting a clearance from me. Thank you.”

As he points out, assuming anything by virtue of flying left or right seat is not a good idea. It's better to be specific. It's also fairer to everyone else because they know your approach before they get into the plane with you and they can then decide not to fly with you at all.

In my own plane, I expect others I fly with, even if they are pilots, to respect my PIC status in case anything goes wrong. Getting into a situation where folks are fighting for control can only lead to a worse outcome. That said, if I fly with someone who I believe has a better chance of achieving a good outcome, maybe because they know the plane better than I do, I will tell them that, too, and adjust my briefing accordingly.

This goes both ways. If I fly with someone else in their plane, I am either sure that they are a good pilot or I will not fly with them at all. In an emergency situation, unless I am asked, I am not going to wrestle with them for control. Getting into a plane with someone else as PIC means that I accept that, in an emergency situation, they will make the decisions and that I, at most, will offer suggestions. I have turned down quite a few rides because of this, but it's too easy to become a statistic.

-Felix

 

[Dean]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone. When I was first learning I flew with others and some of the mistakes that they made instilled this in me. A CFII that I used to fly with has crashed twice (Pilot error). I do not come off as the worlds best pilot because I know that I am not, but if I am going to die I want it to be my fault. It may seem rude at first but once you let them know that it is a personal thing and has nothing to do with their piloting skills they understand.

Dan

I sure as hell wouldn't understand, if you told me that, your butt would be left on the ground. Its my airplane and you don't have to go along. Just because you may want to die at your own hands does not mean someone else does.

 

[jesse]

Dan, I'd be surprised if any experienced pilots would agree to this, I certainly wouldn't. There's just no way I'm going to relenquish control unless I feel that's in my best interest. First of all, without factoring in the difference between our general experience I can't see how you could expect to have the same familiarity with my airplanes that I do. AFaIK you don't even have a multi engine or instrument rating so even if I agreed to let you take over, I'd still be legally PIC and responsible for whatever you did. You also aren't covered by my insurance. IMO if you "require" that any pilot who let's you ride in their airplane to agree to allow your taking over if you feel the need, I don't think you'll be getting too many rides.

Well said. I generally consider myself a pretty good pilot--but when I am in someone else's airplane I let them make the calls. It is a privilege that they are taking me and I am going to respect that.

I have had people, in their airplane, ask me to do something when they doubted the outcome or wanted more help. I will takeover if I am asked to but I won't otherwise.

For example, I know for a fact, that you are going to do a better job than I in either of your airplanes. If anything is going to go wrong--I'd *want* you to be the one dealing with it.

If you don't trust the person that owns the airplane--there is a simple solution--don't fly with them. There are a few folks I won't fly with.

 

[Everskyward]

I have done very little recreational flying with friends who are pilots but I think that the person who provides the airplane, whether it's their own or a rented one would be PIC (acting). In the case of a jointly owned or jointly rented airplane, I guess you would need to agree on some kind of system, however, I don't see that as being an issue for me personally.

On a little bit of a side note, I'm interested in the dynamics of the husband/wife teams we have here (Grant/Leslie, Peggy/hubby). The worst cockpit dynamics I have ever experienced was when trying to fly with a SO. In fact we stopped flying together. Years later, I did fly with him a few times in the capacity of a CFI giving him FRs or IPCs. Those all worked out pretty well. I don't know if it was because I had "grown up" or that we now had more defined roles.

 

[poadeleted20]

When I get in someone else's airplane, I generally tell the pilot, "I can be an instructor, a co-pilot, or a passenger -- which would you prefer?" With someone like Felix, who is much more my equal in those departments, I'm perfectly happy to be an irresponsible passenger if he so chooses, and will grit my teeth and bite my tongue unless/until invited to do otherwise (although if you squirm enough, I'll bet even Felix would ask what's bothering you).

However, since most all my flying is with pilots with far less experience and far fewer qualifications than my own, no matter how much I trust them, I also tell them, "Because of my experience and qualifications, the FAA, the insurance company, and your family will hold me accountable for anything bad that happens regardless of whether you are designated PIC or not, so even if you are the PIC, I will not allow you to break a rule, bend the plane, or hurt yourself while I'm aboard. If that's not acceptable, I'll get out now." I have yet to be asked to get out.

BTW, there is a famous legal case in which a non-pilot passenger asleep in the right seat was determined by the court to have been partly responsible ("contributory negligence") for an aircraft accident. Dig around for "Newberger v. Pokrass" if you want to know how that happened.

Remember, responsibility may be shared, but never delegated or abdicated.

 

[Everskyward]

Dig around for "Newberger v. Pokrass" if you want to know how that happened.

I did and I found this.

3. Melvin C. Newberger v. Irving M. Pokrass et al.
CCH 10 AVI 17,118 (1967) (see Gesell, 1993, pp. 72-73)

Question: Can a passenger share responsibility with the pilot in the negligent operation of an aircraft?

Facts: Melvin Newberger and Willard Pokrass were friends and often made trips together. Pokrass owned an Apache (twin) aircraft. Newberger, Pokrass, and another friend, Barbara Seely decided to fly to Eagle River, Wisconsin where Pokrass had a home near winter recreational activities. Making their way to their destination in adverse weather conditions, they had to stop at Oshkosh until the weather permitted further travel by air. They made a refueling stop at Wausaw, determining to go on to Rhinelander when the weather permitted. During the flight en route Rhinelander, Newberger, sitting beside the pilot, napped. Pokrass had mentioned he was also sleepy. Just before the aircraft crashed, Newberger woke up and warned Pokrass they were about to hit the trees. Pokrass said “I know,” but did nothing to avert the crash. The aircraft did crash and Pokrass and Seely lost their lives in the fire. Newberger survived, but was not found for 14 hours. Newberger brought a suit against the estate of Pokrass. He won the suit and was awarded pain and suffering relief as well as money for lost wages. The estate of Pokrass appealed the court’s decision. The court had determined that res ipsa loquitur applied (the thing speaks for itself). The appellants insisted that had Newberger stayed awake, he could have helped Pokrass avert the disaster. The Wisconsin Supreme Court countered the appellant’s argument by stating that Pokrass could have been found negligent in several aspects.

Outcome: The Court affirmed the lower court’s judgment and Newberger was awarded money for lost wages, and pain and suffering caused by the 14-hour ordeal in wintry conditions.

I see that the estate of Pokrass tried to partially blame Newberger but in the end Newberger was awarded the money.

 

[poadeleted20]

I did and I found this.

I see that the estate of Pokrass tried to partially blame Newberger but in the end Newberger was awarded the money.

...minus a deduction for his contributory negligence (15% IIRC). As I said -- partial, not complete, responsbility. But still, Newberger was determined to have been responsible at least in part even though he was not a pilot and asleep at the time. Stuff like that gets my attention.

 

[Everskyward]

...minus a deduction for his contributory negligence (15% IIRC).

That wasn't mentioned on this site but it's a very short summary of the case. I don't know if this is common with lawsuits or not, but it does seem a little strange that Newberger would get a reduced amount based on the fact that he could have possibly prevented the accident by keeping the Pokrass awake. Still, it isn't as if the estates of Pokrass or the passenger sued Newberger for negligence and won.

 

[poadeleted20]

That wasn't mentioned on this site but it's a very short summary of the case. I don't know if this is common with lawsuits or not, but it does seem a little strange that Newberger would get a reduced amount based on the fact that he could have possibly prevented the accident by keeping the Pokrass awake. Still, it isn't as if the estates of Pokrass or the passenger sued Newberger for negligence and won.

Strange or not, that's what the jury held, and the appellate court sustained that finding -- 15% reduction in damages from Pokrass (I just checked in my law book).

 

[GigG601XL]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along. To me it is simple I do not trust anyone.

Any pilot that goes along with that is agreeing that you are the PIC in that aircraft with all the responsibilities that come with it. I'd bet the FAA would agree as well.

 

[stingray]

Dan, I'd be surprised if any experienced pilots would agree to this, I certainly wouldn't. There's just no way I'm going to relenquish control unless I feel that's in my best interest. First of all, without factoring in the difference between our general experience I can't see how you could expect to have the same familiarity with my airplanes that I do. AFaIK you don't even have a multi engine or instrument rating so even if I agreed to let you take over, I'd still be legally PIC and responsible for whatever you did. You also aren't covered by my insurance. IMO if you "require" that any pilot who let's you ride in their airplane to agree to allow your taking over if you feel the need, I don't think you'll be getting too many rides.

I here you Lance, and I have no problem not flying along. I said it was more my problem than the other pilot. I did not fly the big iron for the same reason until after I got my ticket and I only do that in reserve. I just do not relinquish control that well.

I will give you a couple of instances that give "My" reasoning.

First one I planned a whole trip to deliver a plane to AZ. I was the navigator sat right seat. All or most went well for most of the trip. towards the end a headwing slowed us down. I had us deviating around retricted airspace then around the highest mountain maybe 20 30 miles. Less than half tanks and pilot decides it would take too long and heads out over the restricted space and mountains, I now have to find a new fuel stop on the fly, the place I found ended up not being open for fuel so I had to find another no were to land and we just barely made it out of the range with min aboard.

Second one, Pilot thinks it is funny to pull up quick simulating going over something. This pilot is a very good pilot just does things that I do not agree is part of safe flying.

There is always the exception, Maybe I am just unlucky but I have not flown with someone yet that has not done something that I did not approve of.

By the way very few people can drive me around either.

Dan

 

[RogerT]

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat. I have no problem with this. I tell them right off if I say "My plane" you have to relinquish controls. Otherwise I will not go along.
Dan

You wouldn't be going with me.

 

[gismo]

I here you Lance, and I have no problem not flying along. I said it was more my problem than the other pilot. I did not fly the big iron for the same reason until after I got my ticket and I only do that in reserve. I just do not relinquish control that well.

I will give you a couple of instances that give "My" reasoning.

First one I planned a whole trip to deliver a plane to AZ. I was the navigator sat right seat. All or most went well for most of the trip. towards the end a headwing slowed us down. I had us deviating around retricted airspace then around the highest mountain maybe 20 30 miles. Less than half tanks and pilot decides it would take too long and heads out over the restricted space and mountains, I now have to find a new fuel stop on the fly, the place I found ended up not being open for fuel so I had to find another no were to land and we just barely made it out of the range with min aboard.

Second one, Pilot thinks it is funny to pull up quick simulating going over something. This pilot is a very good pilot just does things that I do not agree is part of safe flying.

There is always the exception, Maybe I am just unlucky but I have not flown with someone yet that has not done something that I did not approve of.

By the way very few people can drive me around either.

Dan

If I were you I'd refuse to fly with anyone who exhibited a disregard for safety and/or regulations but as passenger I'm willing to let a pilot make mistakes (with or without my commenting depending on the pilot's feeling about that) as long as I don't feel my life is in immediate danger. In the case you mentioned when the pilot chose to enter restricted airspace without clearance as well as when he decided to "stretch" his fuel, had I been a passenger I'd probably insist that the pilot land at the nearest airport and let me out but I don't think I'd take any direct action. If he refused to comply (or improve his judgement skills) I'd still feel that forceably taking over would make a bad situation worse. BTW even if you found a pilot willing to fly you in his airplane on your terms doesn't necessarily mean that he'd actually relenquish control when you wanted to take over.

 

[jesse]

You wouldn't be going with me.

Nor me.

Maybe I am just unlucky but I have not flown with someone yet that has not done something that I did not approve of.

I can promise you that you do something I wouldn't be fond of. That said, we all do things different, and I will let someone else do whatever they want to their airplane.

You're seriously missing out on learning a *lot* from some very experienced pilots that *WOULD NOT* take you in their airplane on your terms.

 

[rottydaddy]

Interesting variety of viewpoints, but the rule that trumps them all is, IMHO: whoever will be acting PIC on the flight, it should be agreed upon beforehand. Fail t do that, and you're just asking for trouble. Assumptions can be extremely hazardous in airplanes.

FWIW, I've only sat in the right seat with someone less experienced than myself acting as PIC once, and though it would have taken a lot for me to ask for control , had it become necessary, it would have been obvious enough that my request would probably have been complied with. I was ready to offer suggestions, however, which is the way to start. CRM and all that. I've been known to offer useful suggestions to PICs more experienced than myself, even, but when it comes to those little "hmph- I wouldn't do it quite like that" things, I generally keep my mouth shut.

Different when you own the airplane or it's signed out to you, of course... but two equally-experienced pilots fighting over the controls is a proven recipe for disaster. Choose a "captain" beforehand, and stick with that decision.

I think it's imperative to decide beforehand, and conduct any challenges to the PIC's authority as if it were a crew flight, regardlss of ratings or hours. Gentle reminders, constructive suggestions, respectful questions. Creating animosity up there is just going to make things dangerous.

But if they do something really stupid and you're suddenly in trouble, then I guess it's OK to give them an elbow to the temple and take control.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Generally, I go with the "rule" that the person who provides the plane is PIC unless otherwise arranged. If I'm not the PIC, I'll ask if they want any assistance (I like radios. ) I'll speak up if something isn't going right, and sometimes I'll ask a question phrased like "I do it this way because of x, I see you do it this way - What are the advantages to doing it your way?" It'll either give them a suggestion without being insulting, or I'll learn something.

 

[stingray]

You wouldn't be going with me.

Have you that little faith in your flying? Unless you do something dangerous you would have complete control of the plane takeoff to landing. Making that kind of statement says you would not fly with me as PIC, so why am I supposed to trust you.

I look at it like this, I am letting you fly the plane, just don't do any thing dangerous and "PIC" does not come into play. I let individuals without a PL fly TO to TD without a problem all the time.

How many times have you heard about three or four pilots crashing in the same plane?

One other thing to consider here is the statement its self. It says that the pilot in question does not like antics in the air, he like things to be done by the book. If you had any reservations on why he would ask for the controls, just ask "what would make you ask?".

Dan

 

[stingray]

I sure as hell wouldn't understand, if you told me that, your butt would be left on the ground. Its my airplane and you don't have to go along. Just because you may want to die at your own hands does not mean someone else does.

I do not think that anything was said on who's plane it was. Most of the time I am flying with someone else It is in my plane or some third party plane.

Dan

 

[Everskyward]

I look at it like this, I am letting you fly the plane, just don't do any thing dangerous and "PIC" does not come into play.

I think you need to look at it this way... You are not letting him fly the plane, it is his plane. He is letting you come along. If you don't want to accept his terms, don't go.

 

[stingray]

Any pilot that goes along with that is agreeing that you are the PIC in that aircraft with all the responsibilities that come with it. I'd bet the FAA would agree as well.

You hit the nail on the head. I have the responsability of the flight and that is all. You do all the flying.

Dan

 

[TMetzinger]

If an aircraft owner is riding as a passenger in his airplane, but letting or paying someone else to fly it, that owner is still the "operator", isn't he?

I've got no problem with Dan insisting on being PIC in an aircraft he owns or is otherwise responsible for. That seems a reasonable attitude. Ron's attitude is reasonable too - I wouldn't worry about him snatching the controls away before some sort of discussion had taken place. Instructors have to know how far to let a situation develop so that they can correct it (or direct the student to do so) in a way that maximizes learning. Letting a student get to the point where they realize that "something is different/not right" generally makes for an "a-HA" moment when guidance is given.

 

[stingray]

If I were you I'd refuse to fly with anyone who exhibited a disregard for safety and/or regulations but as passenger I'm willing to let a pilot make mistakes (with or without my commenting depending on the pilot's feeling about that) as long as I don't feel my life is in immediate danger. In the case you mentioned when the pilot chose to enter restricted airspace without clearance as well as when he decided to "stretch" his fuel, had I been a passenger I'd probably insist that the pilot land at the nearest airport and let me out but I don't think I'd take any direct action. If he refused to comply (or improve his judgement skills) I'd still feel that forceably taking over would make a bad situation worse. BTW even if you found a pilot willing to fly you in his airplane on your terms doesn't necessarily mean that he'd actually relenquish control when you wanted to take over.

I think that the word forceably was never use by me. Never did I say that I would forceably take over the plane. It was understood before hand that I would get control if I asked for it. I flew IFR with a young pilot (I did not have an IFR ticket) my plane. First thing he said was you can fly but if I say my plane you have to give it to me. He had .5 hrs in a Cherokee six I had over 200. I had no problem what so ever with him saying that. I did know right up front that I had to be on my toes.

You are going to ask a pilot that just busted airspace after you told him not to then headed out over the mountains on half tanks... to land at the nearest airport. All because he had to get there. I am sure that he is going to go out of his way to land at an airport 30 miles away. Do you not think that it would have been better before getting in the plane to know that you would have had this request accepted. By the way I did not forceably take over the controls I sat there and grit my teeth vowing never to do this again.

One thing I would like to mention is that everyone assumes that I need to take control in an emergency. Were as I have said that there are better pilots out there than myself. Why am I going to take over from someone who is capable of doing a better job than me in an emergency situation. What I am saying is that I am going to speak up and or take over (if necessary) before we get into a dangerous situation there by slimming down that chance. Remember PIC is not sole manipulator of the controls. He just has the last word on the outcome of the flight.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I think you need to look at it this way... You are not letting him fly the plane, it is his plane. He is letting you come along. If you don't want to accept his terms, don't go.

I do not think that anything was said about the plane being his.

This is exactly what I have said, if I do not have final say on how the flight is conducted I do not go along. I am not complaining at all. If the pilot said "no way am I going to let you tell me how to fly" I give a sigh of relief that I asked before entering. Everyone flys different and everyone drives different, but I see no reason I have to get in either a plane or a car if it cannot be flown or driven safely.

By the way I am usually asked to go, not the other way around. If I had to ask for a ride I would word it different. "We will conduct this flight safe and legal with out any antics right".

Dan

 

[GigG601XL]

You hit the nail on the head. I have the responsability of the flight and that is all. You do all the flying.

Dan

I think I did as well, But I think everyone's problem with your position is that in the post I replied to you stated that you were talking about planes that were not your own and I and I think others as you saying you were going to be the PIC in any plane you flew. If that is the case I agree with some others that you A. aren't going to be flying with me in my plane and B. you are going to miss out on some learning experiences because no matter how good and expereinced you may be you ain't the best out there and you don't have to be flying with the best to learn something and that might include some lower hour pilot that is unwilling to give up PIC just because you think you know better.

 

[Everskyward]

I think everyone's problem with your position is that in the post I replied to you stated that you were talking about planes that were not your own and I and I think others as you saying you were going to be the PIC in any plane you flew. If that is the case I agree with some others that you A. aren't going to be flying with me in my plane and B. you are going to miss out on some learning experiences because no matter how good and expereinced you may be you ain't the best out there and you don't have to be flying with the best to learn something and that might include some lower hour pilot that is unwilling to give up PIC just because you think you know better.

Exactly.

 

[gismo]

I do not think that anything was said on who's plane it was. Most of the time I am flying with someone else It is in my plane or some third party plane.

Dan

Dan it was YOU who said it wasn't your airplane. To me that implies that the plane either belongs to the other pilot or is under his control (e.g. he rented it, not you).

Personally If I fly with someone else (Not my plane) I fly in the right seat.

There was also nothing about you being asked to fly along vs begging a ride although I don't see that this changes much except that if another pilot really wants/needs your "help" then they might indeed be willing to comply with your requirements.

I took your initial statement to mean that you felt that anyone offering you an opportunity to fly with them would have to agree to let you be PIC and that's what I objected to. IMO in most situations this would be perceived as not only unacceptable but even bordering on insulting.

And your latest distinction regarding the notion that as long as the other pilot performed acceptably you wouldn't need to exercise your perogative by taking over the controls (forcibly or by consensus), that still presumes that the other pilot would agree to your terms in the first place, which is a big part of what I'm reacting to. OTOH I must give you credit for saying you'd work this out before any flight which is far more reasonable than any possible attempt to sort it out in the air.

As to the experience you described, I've gotta say that I expect that there are very few pilots out there who would force a passenger to endure illegal and unsafe operations if the pax insisted on being let out of the plane (on the ground please). And it wouldn't surprise me that such a pilot might agree to your terms before the flight and then rerfuse to honor the agreement in the air. In that case it seems to me that your position would offer nothing but downsides.

Could you restate your position with specific emphasis on the ownership issue? For instance if Greg offered you a ride in his C-195 would you request that he agree to let you be PIC and take a pass when he (inevitibly) refused?

Also please explain how you could insist on being PIC in an airplane you aren't legally entitled to be PIC in and/or when insurance won't cover you as PIC? Do you simply avoid all such possibilities?

 

[poadeleted20]

If an aircraft owner is riding as a passenger in his airplane, but letting or paying someone else to fly it, that owner is still the "operator", isn't he?

Perhaps, but the regulation says the PIC is the final authority -- once in the air, the PIC's authority trumps the non-PIC operator's. That said, the non-PIC operator still has some responsibilities, but does not have final authority over the operation of the aircraft once airborne.

 

[TMetzinger]

Perhaps, but the regulation says the PIC is the final authority -- once in the air, the PIC's authority trumps the non-PIC operator's. That said, the non-PIC operator still has some responsibilities, but does not have final authority over the operation of the aircraft once airborne.

Agreed. I just don't think it's objectionable for an operator who's a pilot to insist on also being the PIC.

 

[RogerT]

Have you that little faith in your flying?

Faith? Hahaha. This has nothing to do with faith. For 34 yrs now my flying
as been plenty safe and without incident.

I look at it like this, I am letting you fly the plane
Dan

You're not letting me fly my own plane .. you ??@$##*. That's the most
pompous arrogant thing I've ever heard. Your original post said "NOT MY
PLANE".

Why don't you clue us in on your qualifications to make a statement that
you should trump the PIC status of any one of us you might fly with? PPL?
Commercial?? Instrument?? CFI?? ATP??

 

[RogerT]

And your latest distinction regarding the notion that as long as the other pilot performed acceptably you wouldn't need to exercise your perogative by taking over the controls (forcibly or by consensus),...

In the case of a forcible taking control of the aircraft the first thing
I'd do would be to reach over and put 7500 in the transponder and
hit Ident. Then I'd report to ATC that a passenger was attempting to
take control of the aircraft from the PIC, please have law enforcement
standing by when we land.

RT

 

[RogerT]

Agreed. I just don't think it's objectionable for an operator who's a pilot to insist on also being the PIC.

You know, on the surface I don't either. But I'm trying to think of the
circumstances where that might be a good idea.

* Maybe the owner/operator is IFR legal in terms of currency, but not
as proficient as they'd like for the operation so they want someone more
proficient along to help out?

* The owner/operator is flying an aircraft they're not totally comfortable
with even though they're technically legal to be PIC?

RT