Yellowbird
Pre-takeoff checklist
Did you ever get an answer from the insurance company regarding whether the damage was covered?
While the cat's away...
- Thread starter azure
- Start date
azure
Final Approach
The damage will be covered if they're satisfied it was due to animals. I don't have a final reply from them, but they are communicating by email with both Matt @ Y70 and my mechanic. So it sounds as if they're on board.
And I had the problem taken care of, and ferried the plane to Y70 today. It's out of my hands now.
Thanks to everyone for your support.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Really good news. I hope it doesn't take too long.
azure
Final Approach
Thanks Steingar. I hope so too. Mostly I hope the job doesn't open a Pandora'a box of other problems. 
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Thanks Steingar. I hope so too. Mostly I hope the job doesn't open a Pandora'a box of other problems.
I concur, though I would rather such problems manifest themselves during such a process than over the forests of Northern Michigan.
I hope to see you at Adam's do in Philadelphia. Heck, I hope to see me at Adam's do in Philadelphia.
azure
Final Approach
Update: I just got an email from Matt @ Y70. Everything is going fairly smoothly. There was some corrosion in the spar attach box, but it was removable without problems (1.9 hours labor). That was actually the only work not related to the original problem, so it seems that insurance should cover almost all of the bill.
I'm really looking forward to getting my bird back. It won't be until late next week at the earliest though. Fingers crossed that everything continues to go smoothly from here on out.
I'm really looking forward to getting my bird back. It won't be until late next week at the earliest though. Fingers crossed that everything continues to go smoothly from here on out.
azure
Final Approach
Yep, so would I. But even better if they "manifest themselves" at pre-buy.
Obviously I'm out for this year. Though, with this wx pattern over the whole eastern CONUS, I doubt I would have been there even if TBB had been ready in time.
rpadula
En-Route
That is the best part!
I'm sure this has been extremely stressful for you. Heck, it's been tough for me to even read this whole thread! I hope you enjoy a sweet flight when it's all done.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
That's pretty incredible that the insurance will pay for the bill. It is annoying that this whole thing happened, but it sounds like it's turning out pretty well in the end.
azure
Final Approach
Done as of... today!
Yes folks, The Branded Bird is back in his hangar at VLL after a two month saga of frustration. As you can imagine, I'm very very relieved to put that chapter of my ownership experience behind me. I'm really amazed at how little extra work was required, Matt & crew managed to git 'er done with a bare minimum of complications: a bit of corrosion on the ceiling, a new rivet hole had to be drilled for one of the mounting brackets, and Matt spent about an hour this morning while I was there trying to tighten up my flap cable, which is clearly old and worn and will be my next mx issue to tackle.
Best of all: I have written confirmation that my insurance will cover the ENTIRE bill except for the ceiling corrosion. My balance for the job was actually just under 0.5 AMU, and included fuel for the return trip (at current vastly inflated prices, of course). I still need to furnish receipts for the spar itself plus shipping from Texas, and the dye penetration inspection, which was done at Troy with no involvement from the Ionia shop. However, they have indicated that those three items will also be covered.
The only let-down of the entire day was finding that my charging system is still acting weak, with bus voltages in cruise with all avionics running reading ~13.2-13.4 volts, pretty much like last summer with the original alternator. With the avionics off it pops back up to 13.8. I don't think my mechanic ever replaced the alternator wire at annual though, because of the spar carrythrough debacle. So that will be the first thing to try, before springing for the Zeftronics voltage regulator. The only other possible fix at this point is to replace all the wiring and several CBs -- which is a nightmare because of how much of it there is and how difficult it is physically to access.
BTW, either my tanks are larger than spec, or something is funny with my fuel usage. Ionia says they put in 30 gal, and I flew 1.5 hours in all (1.3 tach) between Y70 and topping off my tanks at 57D. At VLL I added 6.0 gal and at 57D it took 42.1 gal. With 30 gal tanks x 2, that would mean I burned 18 gal in 1.3 tach hours, and I was leaned out pretty well the whole way back. It's possible, but a little suspicious, given that my normal fuel burn on trips averages about 11 gal/tach hour. I'll have to watch things closely for a few hours.
Ed, thanks for the offer, it's much appreciated. Maybe a rain check? I may need to get back over there to have the flap cable replaced, as I have a good idea that my local guy won't ever find the time to do it.
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I'm happy you got it fixed at a relatively low cost to you. Hope you have fun flying!
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Hooray! And in plenty of time to enjoy the warm wx flying season!
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
wonderful news
Yellowbird
Pre-takeoff checklist
Great news!
Did you keep the old spar? It would make a nice conversation piece/paperweight/doorstop/club for beating away the Cardinal groupies, etc.
Did you keep the old spar? It would make a nice conversation piece/paperweight/doorstop/club for beating away the Cardinal groupies, etc.
You say the charging system is acting weak, did it act differently before? You may just be at the limits of the system.
AdamZ
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
Super news! Talk about dodgeing a bullet.
azure
Final Approach
What part of the system would you say is likely the limiting factor? I'm guessing it isn't the alternator -- we measured the total current load with everything on except for the gear motor at something like 30 A.
azure
Final Approach
More like happening to have on a bulletproof vest.
It definitely took me down though... for two months.Dodging the bullet would have been for the old spar to be repairable.
azure
Final Approach
I'll have to check, but it's at least 60 (not sure if it 's 60 or 70).
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
did you get the old carry-through? will make a great coffee table
Most likely that is a "cold" rating, they lose significant capability as they heat up which is ok since they only need to keep up with the max load after they recharge the starting loss. As long as the system doesn't go below 13.2 volts and increases as you shed load, you're doing alright. You really don't want any more voltage than 13.2-13.4 if you don't have any charging needs as it just is extra wear on the battery. Wet Lead Acid battery cells (the kind you put water in) are 2.2 volts so at a full charge rests at 13.2. If these indications aren't something that is new and different, I would not be inclined to be too concerned just yet. These systems are designed to be as light and cheap as they could get away with. It's a Cessna, not a Rolls Royce....
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azure
Final Approach
They're not new as in, since the plane went to Ionia, but the plane's old A&P in NY told me he was used to seeing 13.8-14.0. I haven't added anything to the load, in fact a couple of probably lesser draw instruments that the old owner was fond of, I switched off and never use (Trimble 2000A GPS, Argus something-or-other MFD). Also, I saw higher readings in the winter (13.5-13.6). I'm thinking there must be some "new" resistive loss between wherever the voltage regulator senses the voltage, and the bus the JPI is reading off of. Maybe a corroded breaker or wire.
Since the battery is only a year and a half old and usually shows 11.5-12.0 when the master is switched on cold (and then drops as low as 11.3 sometimes after I lower the flaps for pre-flight), I wonder if it's really getting fully charged in flight. Benz gave it a full charge and now I notice it's 12.3 cold. I don't expect that will last.
Since the battery is only a year and a half old and usually shows 11.5-12.0 when the master is switched on cold (and then drops as low as 11.3 sometimes after I lower the flaps for pre-flight), I wonder if it's really getting fully charged in flight. Benz gave it a full charge and now I notice it's 12.3 cold. I don't expect that will last.
You have a bad battery or a bad gauge circuit. Check the battery with a handheld voltmeter. With a full charge it should read 13.2, maybe 13.4-5 if it's still holding a surface charge.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
While it can still crank, get it connected for a day or four to one of these: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332201_200332201
I'll bet your sulfated battery comes back to life.
If it's 24V, VDC has a version for that but it's more $$s (about $120).
Mine lives on this device and the one I retired after 7 years (because I'm CHICKEN with a 7 year old battery) still passes the ICAW 90% discharge test, at year ELEVEN.
My bus voltage is set to 13.9
I'll bet your sulfated battery comes back to life.
If it's 24V, VDC has a version for that but it's more $$s (about $120).
Mine lives on this device and the one I retired after 7 years (because I'm CHICKEN with a 7 year old battery) still passes the ICAW 90% discharge test, at year ELEVEN.
My bus voltage is set to 13.9
azure
Final Approach
I should say, that's 12.3 with the beacon on (and a few other items, like the TC gyro, some interior lights, and of course the JPI). There's nothing wrong with the gauge, it agrees perfectly with a voltmeter. With the master off I haven't checked the battery recently though. I realize it's showing signs of getting weak, but I wonder if that isn't because it's being abused by a weak charging system.
12.3 is an incorrect system voltage. It shouldn't get down to that until you've run that list of goodies for around an hour if not more. If you have 2 volt meters agreeing on that voltage (I would still confirm with a handheld meter at the battery) I'm pretty confident in saying you likely have a sulfated cell in the battery. I would pull it and have it load tested. If it fails, drop it flat onto flat concrete from 6-9" a couple of times, put it on a hot charger and retest.
The desulfinator/maintainers Bruce speaks of are good things. Your charging system from what you have indicated could hardly be less abusive.
azure
Final Approach
If you're that confident, then maybe I should fire my mechanic and hire you.
Seriously, he load tested that battery in January and reported that it definitely passed. I was getting the same readings then -- if anything lower.
And yes, we checked the JPI against a handheld voltmeter at the battery (two of them in fact).
Seriously, he load tested that battery in January and reported that it definitely passed. I was getting the same readings then -- if anything lower.
And yes, we checked the JPI against a handheld voltmeter at the battery (two of them in fact).
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If you're that confident, then maybe I should fire my mechanic and hire you.
Seriously, he load tested that battery in January and reported that it definitely passed. I was getting the same readings then -- if anything lower.
And yes, we checked the JPI against a handheld voltmeter at the battery (two of them in fact).
That was then, 5 months ago. As you please, I'm just trying to save you money and grief by walking you through starting at most likely/cheapest fix first. Right now I don't see where your charging system is particularly indicating it is broken. If the static (no charging going on) battery reading of 12.3 volts with a light load after a full charge is accurate, you have a bad battery, that is what that reading indicates. Again I suggest you first verify the accuracy of the voltmeter(s) with a known good handheld. Always check your information first and make sure you are acting on valid assumptions.
12.3 volts under the circumstances you indicated indicates that your battery has sulfated to the point that it is barely working anymore. Just too much crud built up on the plates causing too much resistance (which is also why you're now maxing out your charging system). If you drop the battery flat onto its bottom twice from a height of 6-9", you stand a better than average chance at knocking a significant amount of sulfation off the plate faces that they will work better. This entire process will cost next to nothing to find out. Heck, you can just swap the battery for a known good battery and see what happens.
BTW, I don't hire out as a mechanic anymore, but I do hire out as a consultant/diagnostician...:wink2:
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Tom-D
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Tom-D
You might better tell her to have her mechanic do the required ICAs for her battery.
azure
Final Approach
Henning, sorry if I sound argumentative, I'm just trying to make sure that a test is worth doing (or doing over again) before I do it, after putting over 20 hours into trying to troubleshoot this problem over the winter, consulting with an engineer (whose advice was 180 opposite yours, suggested replacing all of the wiring and then get a new VR if that doesn't work), and my mechanic wasting nearly an AMU of my money trying several different things that didn't work.
I agree that 12.3 V indicates significant "internal" resistance in the battery -- yet I was getting readings of 11.8 last winter under similar circumstances (charged to capacity), and then the battery passed a load test (says my mechanic). Does that make sense as being due to sulfation? A voltage drop of ~1 volt at 10 A (the beacon) is 0.1 ohms. I wonder if that might not be partly or even mainly due to corrosion at the battery terminals.
I'm not sure why you're questioning that I already checked the JPI. We checked the indicated bus voltage against a known good, digital voltmeter (my mechanic's) and another digital voltmeter (my Dad's old Fluke) that was known to be good 3 years ago. All of those instruments consistently read the same thing, and my mechanic's meter read the same across the battery as the JPI-indicated bus voltage. What am I missing?
How would a sulfated battery max out my charging system? If it was drawing lots of current on an ongoing basis, wouldn't I be seeing an indication of that on the ship's ammeter? The needle is always dead center in cruise.
Tom, are the battery ICAs required to be done at annual? My mechanic wrote "serviced battery" in the annual signoff dated May 6, though he probably did the service sometime in April.
I agree that 12.3 V indicates significant "internal" resistance in the battery -- yet I was getting readings of 11.8 last winter under similar circumstances (charged to capacity), and then the battery passed a load test (says my mechanic). Does that make sense as being due to sulfation? A voltage drop of ~1 volt at 10 A (the beacon) is 0.1 ohms. I wonder if that might not be partly or even mainly due to corrosion at the battery terminals.
I'm not sure why you're questioning that I already checked the JPI. We checked the indicated bus voltage against a known good, digital voltmeter (my mechanic's) and another digital voltmeter (my Dad's old Fluke) that was known to be good 3 years ago. All of those instruments consistently read the same thing, and my mechanic's meter read the same across the battery as the JPI-indicated bus voltage. What am I missing?
How would a sulfated battery max out my charging system? If it was drawing lots of current on an ongoing basis, wouldn't I be seeing an indication of that on the ship's ammeter? The needle is always dead center in cruise.
Tom, are the battery ICAs required to be done at annual? My mechanic wrote "serviced battery" in the annual signoff dated May 6, though he probably did the service sometime in April.
Because the charging system is trying to meet a voltage which it cannot due to the bad cell, so it just stays at max output trying. I suspect that the load test done was incorrect. If you took dads Fluke meter across the battery terminals and saw 12.3 volts on a charged battery, you have a bad battery. One more test to confirm would be a hydrometer test to determine the specific gravity of the electrolyte in each cell. A fully charge charged battery should read 1.265 across all the cells.
Thing is, you keep telling me about checking buss voltages and reading instruments, I want the reading across the battery terminals with nothing else in the line.
Tom-D
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Tom-D
Each battery now comes with Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, and these instructions must be followed each time the battery needs to be serviced, the required items to be inspected at annual (FAR 43-D ) the battery listed.
Gilll battery ICAs are on line at their web site
azure
Final Approach
This is what I'm not understanding. You say it's "trying to meet a voltage which it cannot" and it stays at max output, which means it's putting out a lot more current than the ship's equipment requires. I'm wondering where that current is going. If it's going through the battery, shouldn't that be registering on ship's ammeter (needle to the right)?
Yep, that's a possibility and why I was half-joking about firing my mechanic.
I'll see if I can do that this weekend, at least another direct measurement across the terminals just to be sure. I don't have a "real" hydrometer to test the electrolyte, other than the makeshift ones we built for our intro density lab at work.
The "reading instruments" were directly across the battery terminals. The conditions weren't the same as what we're talking about, they were with the alternator running and under varying system loads. The readings all agreed with the JPI, so I'm saying I trust the JPI as a proxy for the battery terminal voltage. Should I not?
It goes into heat created by the resistance in the cell, also the mineral deposits will build "bridges" between the plates in the cells creating a short circuit. Whether or not this is detected on the Ammeter depends on how the system is designed.
If he can't figure out a fully charged battery putting out 12.3 volts is bad, I'd fire them too.
You can go to the auto parts store and buy a squeeze bulb hydrometer for testing batteries for about $10.
No, you cannot, not when diagnosing a problem because you are trying to find where the problem lies. There could be a resistive or short issue elsewhere between the battery and gauge. Testing at the terminals tells you what the battery is doing, not the system. System voltage tells you you have a problem. Component testing tells you where that problem is.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
Having gone through a similar issue with an auto battery recently (and learning more than I ever wanted to know about lead-acid batteries), I'm with Henning.
I don't know about the "drop" method of desulfating, but I can see how it would work. The batteryminder/battery tender devices work very well.
Simplest solution may be just to replace the battery with a new one, and see what the difference is.
I don't know about the "drop" method of desulfating, but I can see how it would work. The batteryminder/battery tender devices work very well.
Simplest solution may be just to replace the battery with a new one, and see what the difference is.