While the cat's away...

flyingcheesehead said:
Isn't there going to be a major repair entered anyway? I mean, isn't a spar carrythrough replacement a major repair?
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Nope,,,,,,,,, parts replacement is not a major repair or modification, but patches are, and that patch is not part of the OEM blue print, it is a modification/alteration and requires a Field approval or a DER approval. and maybe a A&P-IA return to service.

And there will be a 337 on file to reflect that.

If I were doing a Prebuy for a prospective customer and saw that in records, I'd check to see if in fact the spar was modified, if it was, I'd tell the buyer to run, not walk away.
 
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Yes, Bob @ Kenosha (Cardinal guru) also had the same caveat -- a patch to the spar would leave me with a devalued airplane. But I'll never get back the difference in sale value if I replace the spar, so if it was doable, I would do it.

As it turns out, it's not doable, my mechanic doesn't think so and he's talked to two DERs who didn't hold out any hope of that. So it looks like it's going to be a replacement.

The one bright spot in this is that I've been talking to an insurance adjuster, and though he won't promise anything, he says that IF the damage can be documented as due to animals, he believes it should be covered. I also read carefully through my policy last night and couldn't find any exclusion in there that would apply to vermin damage -- as opposed to "deterioration" due to normal wear and tear, or due to the elements, which is clearly NOT covered.

I've also given my mechanic Bob's contact info and he sounds interested in discussing the process with him to find the best way to carry it out as efficiently as possible. I don't have any reason to question his intelligence, only his ability to stay focused on a task. And since most of the actual work will be contracted out, hopefully this can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

Someone on CFO who did this estimated 100-130 hours total work on replacing the carrythrough.
 
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azure said:
...The one bright spot in this is that I've been talking to an insurance adjuster, and though he won't promise anything, he says that IF the damage can be documented as due to animals, he believes it should be covered. I also read carefully through my policy last night and couldn't find any exclusion in there that would apply to vermin damage -- as opposed to "deterioration" due to normal wear and tear, or due to the elements, which is clearly NOT covered...
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Fingers crossed...
 
As it turns out, it's not doable, my mechanic doesn't think so and he's talked to two DERs who didn't hold out any hope of that. So it looks like it's going to be a replacement.
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Sorry Liz. I would check with Wayne's sheet metal man about making a new one. I think a good sheet metal person could easily manufacture one for you if all the liability stuff didn't get in the way. It's not that complex, but his whole savings and personal net worth could be at risk. I would understand him not wanting to risk that. Again, what a drag. I would have thought the airplane you bought for the price you paid would have been a primo.
 
Thanks, I wish something like that was possible, since it would save some time-consuming testing and inspection to be sure the new spar will be airworthy. As I understand it though (this from talking with another Cardinal owner), the spar is a forged beam and not something a sheet metal person can manufacture. Cessna and/or a third party used to make them to order, but no longer. Luckily for me (tho very unluckily for the owners of course :() there have been Cardinals involved in crashes where the spar came through undamaged. I already have a quote for one one that the salvage guy says he will refund my money if it won't work for me. (Coincidentally, this salvage man is also in TX.)

The reason for bringing in a sheet metal man is for removing and reattaching the wings and to replace any skins that are damaged in the process.
 
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A quick update. My mechanic is waffling on committing to the job, saying that he won't start on it until he has two weeks with no other work pending. He says that should be in the middle of May. More realistically, every other plane on the field will always have equal priority to mine in his eyes, even when mine is sitting there with the wings supported on cradles. It will be hard enough to get him to put it back together for a ferry flight.

Benz Aviation at Y70 (Ionia, MI) has done spar replacement on Cardinals before. They are the shop that replaced my windshield and I'll be hiring them for this job unless someone knows of a better place that isn't too far away. I have another (and actually better) recommendation down in TN, but since there is usually weather between there and here and I'm still VFR-only, that's probably not realistic.
 
It sounds like you're making the right decision by taking it to this other shop. If they're willing and able to do the work, that will probably get it done quicker and cheaper than your mechanic.
 
I'm still waiting on a labor estimate from them, but they did say they could get started on it in the next couple of weeks. The Kenosha shop that specializes in Cardinal repairs is another possibility, and close enough, but they are booked solid into July.
 
Liz, If being VFR-only is what's keeping you from taking it to a different shop, I'd be happy to come out there and ferry it down for you. No charge, just cover my trip home. But that assumes the airplane is good for IFR AND that if you have to get a special flight permit that it would be ok for IFR (which I think would be tough).
 
Nice to hear all these shops have business. Means someone is flying somewhere. Odin knows they aren't doing it here.
 
Get a ferry permit to get it to Benz, and I can fly ya back.
 
TMetzinger said:
But that assumes the airplane is good for IFR AND that if you have to get a special flight permit that it would be ok for IFR (which I think would be tough).
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Wow, thanks Tim! But you just put your finger on the other major issue. Yes it will have to be a ferry permit. The airplane is legally unairworthy with a corroded spar (though given the low loading on the web, I'm not afraid to fly it), and it's a pumpkin anyway (see my avatar) without an annual signoff.

And I am not sure who is going to pull the avionics wiring or how/when that's going to be done. Bob @ Kenosha says he would just cut & splice. I will talk to my avionics guy before I make any further plans. If he has to pull the wiring BEFORE I take it to install the spar, this could get very messy paperwork-wise (and forget about IFR).

Ed, Matt @ Y70 has a 152 that he says he can fly me back in, but if that option falls through then I may be in touch with you, thanks.
 
azure said:
You're kidding, right? >100 hours of work... plenty of chances to mess up and leave me in even worse shape...
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??? I pulled the wings off of lots of planes (in usable condition) and loaded them along with the fuselage on a trailer in under a day.
 
azure said:
Wow, thanks Tim! But you just put your finger on the other major issue. Yes it will have to be a ferry permit. The airplane is legally unairworthy with a corroded spar (though given the low loading on the web, I'm not afraid to fly it), and it's a pumpkin anyway (see my avatar) without an annual signoff.

Lisa, you need to have the A&P-IA who did the annual sign it off (as unairworthy) and then any A&P can repair all discrepancies, and return to service.

And I am not sure who is going to pull the avionics wiring or how/when that's going to be done. Bob @ Kenosha says he would just cut & splice. I will talk to my avionics guy before I make any further plans. If he has to pull the wiring BEFORE I take it to install the spar, this could get very messy paperwork-wise (and forget about IFR).

cutting and splicing the av. wiring is exceptable method to remove the spar.
Ed, Matt @ Y70 has a 152 that he says he can fly me back in, but if that option falls through then I may be in touch with you, thanks.
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You were flying the 177 before you knew is was corroded, you should be safe flying it now in smooth weather.
 
Well I got good news and bad news today. The good news is that the new spar ct is good. My mechanic went over it last week with a fine toothed comb and couldn't find any significant corrosion on it. We had it tested for cracks and faults by a local aerospace company and it came back with a green tag. The bad news is my mechanic may not be able to get me a ferry permit. The FAA is giving him some flack, according to him because he's a "mobile FBO" and they don't trust him. They want to come out and give the plane (and its books) a thorough going over before they issue a ferry permit. So now we're scrambling to make sure every i is dotted. The worst thing is, he won't be here next week when they come out since he's going away on vacation.

I'm really dreading this... I know the real FAA motto is "we're not happy until you're not happy". With everything else that's gone wrong with this plane, and knowing that if the FAA is looking for an excuse to ground an aircraft they're going to find it, I'm pretty well resigned that they're going to force me to get it fixed locally. Which will mean, of course, that I may have to pay someone to commute from Ionia for 3 weeks, since I know my guy won't ever get the job done and there is no one closer with any interest in tackling it.

:(
 
azure said:
Well I got good news and bad news today. The good news is that the new spar ct is good. My mechanic went over it last week with a fine toothed comb and couldn't find any significant corrosion on it. We had it tested for cracks and faults by a local aerospace company and it came back with a green tag. The bad news is my mechanic may not be able to get me a ferry permit. The FAA is giving him some flack, according to him because he's a "mobile FBO" and they don't trust him. They want to come out and give the plane (and its books) a thorough going over before they issue a ferry permit. So now we're scrambling to make sure every i is dotted. The worst thing is, he won't be here next week when they come out since he's going away on vacation.

I'm really dreading this... I know the real FAA motto is "we're not happy until you're not happy". With everything else that's gone wrong with this plane, and knowing that if the FAA is looking for an excuse to ground an aircraft they're going to find it, I'm pretty well resigned that they're going to force me to get it fixed locally. Which will mean, of course, that I may have to pay someone to commute from Ionia for 3 weeks, since I know my guy won't ever get the job done and there is no one closer with any interest in tackling it.

:(
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The FAA is getting more and more cautious on what they allow in the air, If it can be repaired by the local A&P they usually do not issue a FP.

It's always been like that. Your A&P needs to tell the FSDO that he does not have the tools required to do that job.

He could also tell them that he has never completed this task before 65.81
 
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azure said:
Well I got good news and bad news today. The good news is that the new spar ct is good. My mechanic went over it last week with a fine toothed comb and couldn't find any significant corrosion on it. We had it tested for cracks and faults by a local aerospace company and it came back with a green tag. The bad news is my mechanic may not be able to get me a ferry permit. The FAA is giving him some flack, according to him because he's a "mobile FBO" and they don't trust him. They want to come out and give the plane (and its books) a thorough going over before they issue a ferry permit. So now we're scrambling to make sure every i is dotted. The worst thing is, he won't be here next week when they come out since he's going away on vacation.

I'm really dreading this... I know the real FAA motto is "we're not happy until you're not happy". With everything else that's gone wrong with this plane, and knowing that if the FAA is looking for an excuse to ground an aircraft they're going to find it, I'm pretty well resigned that they're going to force me to get it fixed locally. Which will mean, of course, that I may have to pay someone to commute from Ionia for 3 weeks, since I know my guy won't ever get the job done and there is no one closer with any interest in tackling it.

:(
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It's not that big of a deal to load it on a trailer and truck it out.
 
Tom-D said:
It's a lot bigger deal if you are not a mechanic.
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The guys who truck them typically are experienced mechanics and will have it disassembled and loaded in a day. She also has a mechanic there who while he may not have the time to do the job, should have a few hours to pull the wings. Normally you get away with leaving the tail feathers on even if they are a bit too wide.
 
Tom-D said:
He could also tell them that he has never completed this task before 65.81
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Well that would be the truth. The trouble is, he won't be there to tell them. He'll be in New Jersey all next week.
 
azure said:
Well that would be the truth. The trouble is, he won't be there to tell them. He'll be in New Jersey all next week.
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Is your mechanic the only A&P there?
 
Tom-D said:
Is your mechanic the only A&P there?
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There are no true FBOs that work on owners' planes. There is one other itinerant A&P. He's never done this job before either. And if the FAA blows off my guy, why would they listen to him?

I had my guy leave a signed note saying that his experience and tools are not adequate for the scope of the job, citing 65.81. I hope the FAA accepts this, and the word of the other guy.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about not getting a ferry permit. While it would be a lot easier if they gave you one so you could fly the plane to Y70, your wings need to come off to replace the spar anyway. I bet Matt would even fly over to remove the wings and prepare the plane to be trailered back to Y70.
 
Quick update: got a phone call this morning from the Pine Barrens. My mechanic gave me the number of a gentleman at the FSDO who actually returned my call with helpful instructions. So I returned a completed ferry permit application to him and am on my way out to the airport to pick up the permit itself (hopefully).

His motto was: "We're here to help!"

Somehow that sounds a lot better than the other one. Hope it works out that way. :thumbsup:
 
azure said:
Quick update: got a phone call this morning from the Pine Barrens. My mechanic gave me the number of a gentleman at the FSDO who actually returned my call with helpful instructions. So I returned a completed ferry permit application to him and am on my way out to the airport to pick up the permit itself (hopefully).

His motto was: "We're here to help!"

Somehow that sounds a lot better than the other one. Hope it works out that way. :thumbsup:
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I was surprised by the prior posting actually. I've had lots of ferry permits issued over the years on WAY worse issues than yours. Their attitude always seemed to be "If you're willing to fly it, ok, just be Day VFR and don't fly over densely populated areas". A&Ps always signed em off, they aren't saying it's airworthy, rather that it should hold together for this flight. I've never heard of an A&P getting busted for signing off a ferry that didn't work out. Basically, it's you assuming the risk and the FAA really could care less if you kill yourself so long as you don't take others with you.
 
They're getting tougher each year. I've seen two NFW's this year that would have been a piece of cake in years past. Glad Liz got her deal done.

Henning said:
I was surprised by the prior posting actually. I've had lots of ferry permits issued over the years on WAY worse issues than yours. Their attitude always seemed to be "If you're willing to fly it, ok, just be Day VFR and don't fly over densely populated areas". A&Ps always signed em off, they aren't saying it's airworthy, rather that it should hold together for this flight. I've never heard of an A&P getting busted for signing off a ferry that didn't work out. Basically, it's you assuming the risk and the FAA really could care less if you kill yourself so long as you don't take others with you.
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azure said:
Quick update: got a phone call this morning from the Pine Barrens. My mechanic gave me the number of a gentleman at the FSDO who actually returned my call with helpful instructions. So I returned a completed ferry permit application to him and am on my way out to the airport to pick up the permit itself (hopefully).

His motto was: "We're here to help!"

Somehow that sounds a lot better than the other one. Hope it works out that way. :thumbsup:
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I'm waiting to hear what the out come is of the guy who wants to help.
 
wabower said:
They're getting tougher each year. I've seen two NFW's this year that would have been a piece of cake in years past. Glad Liz got her deal done.
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I only have the permit from the FAA. It still needs to be signed off by an IA. Believe it or not, that might be the hardest part. The other two IAs on the field are both reluctant to get involved ("other two" is counting my CFII, who has the certification mostly so that he can do the mx on his own plane). I'm going to try to get my CFII on board tomorrow, but I can understand how he might not be keen to go on record as approving an airplane for flight that's already been signed off as unairworthy by another IA.
 
azure said:
I only have the permit from the FAA. It still needs to be signed off by an IA. Believe it or not, that might be the hardest part. The other two IAs on the field are both reluctant to get involved ("other two" is counting my CFII, who has the certification mostly so that he can do the mx on his own plane). I'm going to try to get my CFII on board tomorrow, but I can understand how he might not be keen to go on record as approving an airplane for flight that's already been signed off as unairworthy by another IA.
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It only requires an A&P to sign it off, and they are not signing it off as "Airworthy", they are only signing it off as "safe for this flight". If they were signing it off as Airworthy, then you would not need the ferry permit or the repair. Remember, "Airworthy" is a legal condition, not a physical one.
 
azure said:
I only have the permit from the FAA. It still needs to be signed off by an IA. Believe it or not, that might be the hardest part. The other two IAs on the field are both reluctant to get involved ("other two" is counting my CFII, who has the certification mostly so that he can do the mx on his own plane). I'm going to try to get my CFII on board tomorrow, but I can understand how he might not be keen to go on record as approving an airplane for flight that's already been signed off as unairworthy by another IA.
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The ferry flight permit only requires a A&P not an IA, they are signing for safety of flight not airworthiness.
 
Tom-D said:
The ferry flight permit only requires a A&P not an IA, they are signing for safety of flight not airworthiness.
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I stand corrected. It's all academic anyway: safety of flight is the one thing no one wants to sign off on for an airplane fresh from being annualed by another mechanic. By the wording of the permit, even a test flight over the airport to tease out any possible oil leaks isn't legal (the airport is in a congested area, and flight over a congested area is prohibited -- you're supposed to take off and leave the area as expeditiously as possible).

Unless I can find someone I haven't talked to yet, this show is on hold until sometime next week at the earliest. :(
 
I despise opening an old wound, but I am really, really curious. Is this the same airplane that was for sale for like a hundred grand?
 
steingar said:
I despise opening an old wound, but I am really, really curious. Is this the same airplane that was for sale for like a hundred grand?
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Lots of sellers ask for $100K. I have no idea if it's the same plane you're thinking of. What does that have to do with the subject of the thread? :confused:

Anyway we arrived at a mutually agreeable price. ;)
 
Ugh Liz, I feel for you. This reminds me of Toby chasing the electrical gremlin in her Chrokee 140
 
azure said:
Lots of sellers ask for $100K. I have no idea if it's the same plane you're thinking of. What does that have to do with the subject of the thread? :confused:

Anyway we arrived at a mutually agreeable price. ;)
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Sorry, I just remembered one thread in particular and was curious. Shouldn't have asked.
 
I hope it gets resolved. Main thing is it got spotted on the ground and costs money, instead of breaking in the air, being the focus of the NTSB report, and costing lives.
 
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