Where to retire?

[EdFred]

Honestly Ed, I think Alaska checks just about every box on your list. It’s as GA friendly/2A friendly of a state as they come and literally building codes are almost nonexistent outside of the “cities.”

It’s also breathtakingly gorgeous pretty much everywhere you go.

Cost of living is a bit too much for what I want to retire on. Also, I may not be the only one contributing to the decision as to where.

 

[weilke]

As a general rule of thumb, the HOA crazyness and Karen culture tends to dissipate the further you get away from tall buildings. Even in the socialist republic of Maryland, once you get to Allegany and Garrett county, you will have to go looking if you want to find subdivision nuttiness. If you dont get along with people and want to have your own 150 acres with a runway, you can do that and nobody would bother you about it.

Now for a less traditional choice, consider West Virginia:

> Housing costs

Lowish to dirt cheap.

> Land availability

That we have. Much of it rocky and hilly. If you want something flat, its either flood prone river bottom or comparatively expensive production land. If you dont mind your land consisting of steep slopes and ravines, you can buy that for little money.

> Real Estate/Recurring property Taxes/Sales/Income Taxes

Property taxes on real estate are generally low. But then, local government doesn't do much for you either, so if that's what you want, you dont have to pay for it.

Income tax is 3-6.5% with the top bracket starting at 60k. Social security is not taxed (that just changed). There is a state capital gains tax at iirc 6.5%. Now, there is talk in he legislature to phase out the income tax alltogether by jacking up the sales tax, but that seems to be hung up. There is an annual property tax on cars and boats at 60% of NADA value for the assessment. I have yet to see how much that ends up being. Car insurance is dirt cheap, so if I have to pay a few bucks on property tax, it won't kill me.

> 2A Friendliness

Yes. Very much so.

> GA Friendliness

Not many airports, mostly a function of geography.

> hangar availability and costs

I pay $150/mo for a new construction hangar at a LOC approach equipped uncontrolled field. Not sure how it would be in other parts of the state.

> runway construction

As in 'you want to build one ?' Find land, buy dozer, get started.

> Property rights friendliness (minimal ordinances)

Your land, your rules. However, the mineral rights may not come with the land. Often they were separated a long time ago. So if you are in gas country and you dont own the rights, the right holder is able to drill on your land.

> Other considerations not mentioned?

Healthcare was mentioned. WVU is a good system and there are nice areas close to Morgantown where you could have the rural life yet bet a 30min drive from a good assortment of medical care. Dont know much about the other side of the state. Also, a few areas that are close to medical care in Pittsburgh and the DC metro.

 

[RyanB]

Honestly Ed, I think Alaska checks just about every box on your list. It’s as GA friendly/2A friendly of a state as they come and literally building codes are almost nonexistent outside of the “cities.”

It’s also breathtakingly gorgeous pretty much everywhere you go.

Just have to endure those bitter cold winters for the rest of your days, which would be a big fat no for me!

 

[Zeldman]

Anywhere the humidity is in single digits in summer. And no skeeters.

I grew up in southeast Texas. Not going there again.

 

[DavidWhite]

Just have to endure those bitter cold winters for the rest of your days, which would be a big fat no for me!

Most of the population centers in Alaska have considerably more mild winters (temp wise) than pretty much anywhere in the midwest. The only places that don’t aren’t really places you’d want to visit, much less live.

 

[Jim K]

And no skeeters

Is there such a place?

 

[luvflyin]

While I respectfully disagree with many ordinances, this one is just absurd.

Too many vehicles is only a problem if you mow your lawn

 

[weilke]

Too many vehicles is only a problem if you mow your lawn

When the HOA annoyed me at my prior home, I contemplated hanging an a small engine block off one of my trees, just to get them wound up. It's not 'trash' as long as I work on it.

 

[NoBShere]

I have lived in West Virginia, Pennsylvania, Illinois and California. I found good things about each. If you are choosing a rural setting, you can do anything you want in any state as long as you don’t have to brag about it to strangers and don’t care what morons on the internet think. Also, if you’re a causehead, either republican’t or demowon’t, then you need to find a place with like close-minded individuals.

I have also experienced that the saying of “you get what you pay for” applies to choosing a home. There is a reason that nice places to live cost more money one way or another.

 

[DaleB]

I had this same debate when we were getting a few years out from retirement. It's a big reason I was building an RV-7, in fact. Our grandkids are all here (Omaha area) and I wanted to move south, most likely somewhere in TX. Being able to make the trip in half a day makes it practical to live a few hundred miles away. Now that I'm limited to Light Sport, that move is no longer in the cards. We've put a bunch of work, time, and money into making this house exactly what we want. I have come to freaking hate cold winters, but my new goal is to retire in place and hire out the snow shoveling, and probably the lawn mowing as well. Our roads suck, but I have found I enjoy fixing that with big, comfy cars.

 

[kyleb]

One of my thoughts of late is to underbuy on the housing front, leaving more cash to waste on travel and reducing home maintenance costs.

SWMBO, of course, wants a large house for that weekend every year when we have 5 overnight guests. Sorry folks, there are not 3-4 spare suites. There's a spare bedroom with a queen bed, we have an inflatable mattress that works in the office, and someone can sleep on the sofa.

 

[Ghery]

Property values and rents don't seem to be as outta control as in some other places that get in the news a lot, although 'californication' is kinda an issue. Not as bad as like say Idaho for instance.

I've lived (as an adult) in Oregon, California, Colorado and Washington (state). Throw in Massachusetts for 5 months in high school and you've got them all. 4th generation native of California. We've lived in Washington far more than the others (probably combined). Now, luvflyin is in the part of the state where our daughter lives and brings up one of the advantages - Oregon with no sales tax is just across the river. And we don't have a state income tax in Washington (in spite of numerous attempts over the years by the state legislature in impose one on the people.

However, this state is run by the left wing loons in King County and surrounding areas. The only thing that keeps me here is the fact that my kids (and grandkids) live here and we need to be relatively close. Move to Oregon? Not a chance. As much as I don't like the lunacy in this state, Oregon is worse. Closer to California? If it weren't for them I'd advocate for moving to a more friendly place (as in respects the Constitution of the United States) like Idaho or Wyoming. The downside, in addition to being further from the kids and grandkids is that winters in both are not all the great. Arizona, perhaps? Just someplace where they aren't trying to "Californiacate" the place.

 

[Morgan3820]

Curious then - what are the values of Texas and Florida? Does a state itself have values? So I'm not supposed to move to a different state if that state what... has the majority of it's population that votes a certain way? Belongs to one political party or another?

I'm not going to get into to which party I belong or my views on politics, but last time I checked Americans have the right to freely travel/move from state to state without fear of being persecuted for what they believe. So if I'm a card-carrying liberal snowflake, am I supposed to stay out of Florida even though I want to move there for the nice weather and beaches? If I'm the president of my local young republicans chapter, am I not allowed to move to Massachusetts because I like... (what's in Massachusetts... ) Lobsters?

Ed - to your point... I like Florida for many of the criteria you listed. Texas, too. Well... except for the people who think like BladeSlap.

It’s funny how you never hear of people in Tennessee retiring to Massachusetts

we got a lot of refugees from the mother country ie New York, New Jersey moving down here and telling the locals how things should be done, demanding changes. It does not sit well.

 

[Pugs]

It’s hard to beat eastern TN. I’m north GA but TN checks all my boxes for retirement. I’m still looking at NH though for quality of health care and the fact I miss their winters. Undecided but I still have like 12 yrs ish to make up my mind.

We're 6 months from moving to the lakes region of NH (just south of the presidential range) and are actively house hunting and ready to buy. We've spent a lot of time up there the last decade, making sure we've visited in all six seasons (can't forget mud season and stick season! ) and we've really grown to love it. Property taxes in NH vary wildly by town so well worth researching but up where we're looking very similar, or less, than here in MD. Most towns offer a $500 veterans discount (after living there a year) and after age 65 there is a reduction as well.

Moving north to us is great since we have hobbies and interests for each season. Really looking forward to it.

 

[Velocity173]

We're 6 months from moving to the lakes region of NH (just south of the presidential range) and are actively house hunting and ready to buy. We've spent a lot of time up there the last decade, making sure we've visited in all six seasons (can't forget mud season and stick season! ) and we've really grown to love it. Property taxes in NH vary wildly by town so well worth researching but up where we're looking very similar, or less, than here in MD. Most towns offer a $500 veterans discount (after living there a year) and after age 65 there is a reduction as well.

Moving north to us is great since we have hobbies and interests for each season. Really looking forward to it.

The housing market sure has changed since a few years ago when I was looking up there. Hardly anything available right now and what is available is over my budget. Then, the area I’m looking at has roughly $300 per month HOA fees. Still a long ways to go though so maybe in 10 years or so the market will change.

 

[sourdough44]

It depends on a handful of factors. I’ve known about 5 couples or singles from MI that retired, made the almost expected move south, only to come back a few years later. Their relatives, friends & familiarity was up north.

Some people have no ties, don’t want any, that’s fine. My Mom is 85, lives in the northern U.P., knows about everyone in the small town, never considered going anywhere.

Don’t tell anyone, my bugout State is SD, don’t laugh, it rates kinda high on the scale.

Lastly, once retired, with a little extra coin, one can be gone for the worst of the winter. No need to own elsewhere, just do the mid length rental.

So it all, depends, what works for one isn’t the answer for the next.

 

[wayne]

No state income tax in Tennessee. Lots of tax exemptions for retired people in Georgia. My parents moved from Tennessee to Georgia 5+ years ago. They love the lack of income taxes for seniors; depends upon how much you make as a senior. Stay of the metro areas for either and property costs and taxes are pretty low.

Property taxes are pretty low in Georgia. Here in Cobb County once one of the owners turns 62 you can get exempted from the school portion of the property taxes; that's the majority of the property tax. Cobb is a bit close in for cheaper prices and enough land to build a runway though. Maybe in the western most part of the county it might get rural enough for that. Maybe.

I don't know how TN is now on concealed carry, but many years ago a co-worker in Nashville said you basically had to be related to or buddies with the sheriff; could be a city thing. In Georgia it's easy to get a concealed carry permit as long as you aren't a felon.

There is annual property/usage tax on planes in Georgia. There used to be for cars too, but now it's just a one time sales tax. I don't have a boat, so not sure how those are handled; looks like annual property taxes from a quick Google search.

I've never landed a plane on turf/dirt. So I haven't looked into building a runway. There are plenty of private turf runways around, even a paved runway in the metro area; Stockmar, 20GA. Maybe the rules have changed since all of them were built. If you build a runway and want to let others use it, the state helps protect you on liability:

To encourage landowners to make their lands available to the public for recreational purposes Georgia law (OCGA 51-3-20 through 51-3-26) explicitly shields landowners from civil liability for injuries to persons who use their land for recreational purposes without charge unless the landowner willfully or maliciously fails to guard against or warn of a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity.​

There's a lot less worrying about ice while flying in the southeast. Oh, I've picked it up a few times in the winter, but that's been IFR. Staying below the clouds was an option, and at times my "out".

 

[Morgan3820]

Anywhere but North Carolina

- The state is too crowded.
- Gators will eat your dog.
- There are waaay too many tourists.
- Mosquitoes will eat you.
- The place is full of snowbirds who can’t drive.
- The orange groves are being destroyed for housing developments.
- Hurricanes will destroy your house.
- Did I mention the place is too crowded?

 

[Morgan3820]

So if I - support more government involvement in business, increased programs for the poor, prisoners rights, increased taxes to pay for social programs, assistance for those who need help picking themselves up by their bootstraps, gun control..... then I'm banned from Florida.

Yes, please. You can do all those things where you already are.

 

[Bill]

Y

Factors in my decision making:

Housing costs
Land availability
Real Estate/Recurring property Taxes/Sales/Income Taxes
2A Friendliness
GA Friendliness

hangar availability and costs
runway construction​

Property rights friendliness (minimal ordinances)
Other considerations not mentioned?​

• Housing costs, check
• Land availability, out in the county, check
• Taxes: Real estate is low, no recurring personal property taxes, no income taxes, no SS income taxes, fairly high sales tax, but I can deal. One can control taxation thru spending habits.
• 2A friendliness: Hell yea!
• GA friendliness: Hard to get a hangar at first, but good local GA airport (FGU), several other good ones in the area. No personal property taxes or state registrations on aircraft
• Minimal ordinances: Out in the county, check. Want to shoot on your property? No problem
• Other considerations:
  • Large enough city to have a variety of restaurants, live music, festivals, tap rooms and bars, arts, etc., but not large enough that traffic is a headache
  • ~2hrs by car to Atlanta or Nashville if bigger city things are of interest
  • Coastal beaches (Destin, Myrtle, Pensacola, Hilton Head, coasta NC) are but a 2hr flight
  • Southern Florida (Naples, etc.) is a 3.5hr flight (think winter escape)
  • Motorcycling: The best riding on the east coast begins about an hour away
  • Nice lake a few miles north of the city, great for bass fishing, and both power boating and sailing
  • Moderate southern climate, but we do experience four seasons:
    • January is the coldest month, one can expect lows in the upper 20's and highs in the mid 40's. We have a handful of days where the mornings are in the teens and highs only in the 30's
    • July is the warmest month, one can expect lows in the upper 60's to lower 70's, and highs 88-90. While it is warm here all summer, we rarely get temps above 95.
• I've been here since the late 90's, and I'm not going anywhere, we love it here and will retire here.
• Ed, PM or text me with anything you want to know, or we can set up a call sometime.

Edit: medical care

• Erlanger: One of five Level I trauma centers in Tennessee, very good for trauma/ortho. @Velocity173 flies one of their life force helos, I believe they have five birds that cover the area.
• Memorial/Chattanooga Heart Institute: Top level heart/lung hospital, well respected in the southeast. They, and their doctors, did my AVR a while back. Top doctors, top care, most up to date methods.
• The city is large enough that we have multiples of any medical specialist one might need.

EDIT: While the city is urban, go 15-20mi in any direction and you are OUT in the country.

 

[eman1200]

• Housing costs, check
• Land availability, out in the county, check
• Taxes: Real estate is low, no recurring personal property taxes, no income taxes, no SS income taxes, fairly high sales tax, but I can deal. One can control taxation thru spending habits.
• 2A friendliness: Hell yea!
• GA friendliness: Hard to get a hangar at first, but good local GA airport (FGU), several other good ones in the area. No personal property taxes or state registrations on aircraft
• Minimal ordinances: Out in the county, check. Want to shoot on your property? No problem
• Other considerations:
  • Large enough city to have a variety of restaurants, live music, festivals, tap rooms and bars, arts, etc., but not large enough that traffic is a headache
  • ~2hrs by car to Atlanta or Nashville if bigger city things are of interest
  • Coastal beaches (Destin, Myrtle, Pensacola, Hilton Head, coasta NC) are but a 2hr flight
  • Southern Florida (Naples, etc.) is a 3.5hr flight (think winter escape)
  • Motorcycling: The best riding on the east coast begins about an hour away
  • Nice lake a few miles north of the city, great for bass fishing, and both power boating and sailing
  • Moderate southern climate, but we do experience four seasons:
    • January is the coldest month, one can expect lows in the upper 20's and highs in the mid 40's. We have a handful of days where the mornings are in the teens and highs only in the 30's
    • July is the warmest month, one can expect lows in the upper 60's to lower 70's, and highs 88-90. While it is warm here all summer, we rarely get temps above 95.
• I've been here since the late 90's, and I'm not going anywhere, we love it here and will retire here.
• Ed, PM or text me with anything you want to know, or we can set up a call sometime.

Edit: medical care

• Erlanger: One of five Level I trauma centers in Tennessee, very good for trauma/ortho. @Velocity173 flies one of their life force helos, I believe they have five birds that cover the area.
• Memorial/Chattanooga Heart Institute: Top level heart/lung hospital, well respected in the southeast. They, and their doctors, did my AVR a while back. Top doctors, top care, most up to date methods.
• The city is large enough that we have multiples of any medical specialist one might need.

What’s the earliest you can marry your cousin?

 

[Jim K]

What’s the earliest you can marry your cousin?

As soon as the judge gets out of bed in the morning

 

[Bill]

What’s the earliest you can marry your cousin?

Have you seen my cousin? *Blech*

 

[Velocity173]

• Housing costs, check
• Land availability, out in the county, check
• Taxes: Real estate is low, no recurring personal property taxes, no income taxes, no SS income taxes, fairly high sales tax, but I can deal. One can control taxation thru spending habits.
• 2A friendliness: Hell yea!
• GA friendliness: Hard to get a hangar at first, but good local GA airport (FGU), several other good ones in the area. No personal property taxes or state registrations on aircraft
• Minimal ordinances: Out in the county, check. Want to shoot on your property? No problem
• Other considerations:
  • Large enough city to have a variety of restaurants, live music, festivals, tap rooms and bars, arts, etc., but not large enough that traffic is a headache
  • ~2hrs by car to Atlanta or Nashville if bigger city things are of interest
  • Coastal beaches (Destin, Myrtle, Pensacola, Hilton Head, coasta NC) are but a 2hr flight
  • Southern Florida (Naples, etc.) is a 3.5hr flight (think winter escape)
  • Motorcycling: The best riding on the east coast begins about an hour away
  • Nice lake a few miles north of the city, great for bass fishing, and both power boating and sailing
  • Moderate southern climate, but we do experience four seasons:
    • January is the coldest month, one can expect lows in the upper 20's and highs in the mid 40's. We have a handful of days where the mornings are in the teens and highs only in the 30's
    • July is the warmest month, one can expect lows in the upper 60's to lower 70's, and highs 88-90. While it is warm here all summer, we rarely get temps above 95.
• I've been here since the late 90's, and I'm not going anywhere, we love it here and will retire here.
• Ed, PM or text me with anything you want to know, or we can set up a call sometime.

Edit: medical care

• Erlanger: One of five Level I trauma centers in Tennessee, very good for trauma/ortho. @Velocity173 flies one of their life force helos, I believe they have five birds that cover the area.
• Memorial/Chattanooga Heart Institute: Top level heart/lung hospital, well respected in the southeast. They, and their doctors, did my AVR a while back. Top doctors, top care, most up to date methods.
• The city is large enough that we have multiples of any medical specialist one might need.

Six. You’re getting a brand new aircraft in your area in March to replace LF1.

 

[eman1200]

Have you seen my cousin? *Blech*

if'n she was born'd n raised in TN, I imagine she looks a bit like @mscard

 

[thito01]

Avoid massachusetts: not GA friendly, not 2A friendly, really high housing costs,excise taxes on cars. However, there are a lot of good healthcare facilities in the state... which might be important to us old retired guys of course there is the Patriots vs Lions...

I live in Winter Haven, FL. They definitely know how to handle old people here. It appears that there is one hospital room, extended care room, or <other> room for every single person over 65 within 50 miles.

 

[Bob Noel]

When the HOA annoyed me at my prior home, I contemplated hanging an a small engine block off one of my trees, just to get them wound up. It's not 'trash' as long as I work on it.

Call it "art"...

 

[Bill]

Six. You’re getting a brand new aircraft in your area in March to replace LF1.

I stand corrected!

LIFE FORCE BASES
LIFE FORCE Air Medical has six bases that serve the southeast Tennessee, north Georgia, western North Carolina, and northeast Alabama regions. Please select a link below to learn more about a specific base.
LIFE FORCE 1 - Cleveland, TN

LIFE FORCE 2 - Sparta, TN

LIFE FORCE 3 - Calhoun, GA

LIFE FORCE 4 - Blue Ridge, GA

LIFE FORCE 5 - Winchester, TN

LIFE FORCE 6 - Murphy/Andrews, NC

 

[Half Fast]

I live in Winter Haven, FL. They definitely know how to fleece old people here. It appears that there is one hospital room, extended care room, or <other> room for every single person over 65 within 50 miles.

FIFY

Howdy, neighbor. I’m in Haines City, hangared at Wtr Hvn. Let me know if you’d like to grab a cup of coffee and talk about shiny flying objects.

 

[Half Fast]

Call it "art"...

Tail Of the Dragon.

 

[steingar]

Glad to hear you're thinking about retirement @EdFred. I'm not, too many poor life choices. Oh well, I like my job. The one thing I always counsel retirees is this. Right now you're hale and healthy, and Ed is likely to be so for some time, he's a young guy. That said, sooner or later you'll need help. It happens to all of us who don't die young. I say have a plan for when that happens. Be near some family or good friends you trust to take care of you.

 

[Clip4]

Sez who?!

They wouldn’t call it “tourist season” if you weren’t allowed to shoot damnyankees.

If they establish residency that ain’t tourists Vern.

 

[weilke]

One of my thoughts of late is to underbuy on the housing front, leaving more cash to waste on travel and reducing home maintenance costs.

SWMBO, of course, wants a large house for that weekend every year when we have 5 overnight guests. Sorry folks, there are not 3-4 spare suites. There's a spare bedroom with a queen bed, we have an inflatable mattress that works in the office, and someone can sleep on the sofa.

One of the great mysteries in life is the desire to own a large house if one does not need a large house. 'No dear, I do not wish to operate a bed&breakfast for your family.' They have this wonderful place called the 'Hilton Garden' just down the road. Other than that, no more than 1 guest room with en-suite and a pull-out couch in my office.
I love her dearly and she is (outside of the lapse of judgement of hanging out with me) the smartest and most analytical person you are going to find. But that house thing remains a mystery.

 

[wayne]

Glad to hear you're thinking about retirement @EdFred. I'm not, too many poor life choices. Oh well, I like my job. The one thing I always counsel retirees is this. Right now you're hale and healthy, and Ed is likely to be so for some time, he's a young guy. That said, sooner or later you'll need help. It happens to all of us who don't die young. I say have a plan for when that happens. Be near some family or good friends you trust to take care of you.

Spot on. We all get old; or hopefully we get old. Need to have a plan for when that happens. Sometimes it's gradual and you can have time to make adjustments. Sometimes that shift is quick and a plan needs to have already been developed ahead of time.

Don't just plan for now. Plan for 5 to 10 years down the road. Moving can be costly, even more so with buying and selling property. What might work today, might not work so well in the not too distant future.

Case in point, I can see my father getting noticeably older. The pace has picked up for him. He's still ok, but it is noticeable, even when I see him at least monthly. This past weekend he was doing a bit better, but at some point they may need to shift from a house to a condo or "senior living". He's not going to like that. They should have moved to a condo 5+ years ago, but he wasn't going from a 4 bedroom home with a full basement to a condo. Uh uh, not happening. He was 74 years old then, and not realistic on where his health would be in 10 years; he was already have lower back issues years before that.

Oh, and kudos steingar on recognizing "poor life choices". Too often people blame "the system", corporations or anything other than their selves. Sorry you will need to work longer, glad that it will be doing something you enjoy.

 

[Bill]

One of the great mysteries in life is the desire to own a large house if one does not need a large house.

When we moved downtown we went from 3350sq ft on 1/2 acre to 2000sq ft and a postage stamp yard. I'm perfectly happy, and to be honest we could heve gone smaller on the house and I'm loving next to nothing yard work!

 

[Jim K]

One of the great mysteries in life is the desire to own a large house if one does not need a large house. 'No dear, I do not wish to operate a bed&breakfast for your family.' They have this wonderful place called the 'Hilton Garden' just down the road. Other than that, no more than 1 guest room with en-suite and a pull-out couch in my office.
I love her dearly and she is (outside of the lapse of judgement of hanging out with me) the smartest and most analytical person you are going to find. But that house thing remains a mystery.

Amen. My mom suffers from that. Then when the kids stay over she lets them sleep in the living room.

Thankfully my wife is the opposite. She was happiest in our first house that was about 1200 ft2. I suggested our retirement home could be a hangar with a bedroom & kitchen in the corner and she was immediately on board.

 

[Pugs]

One of the great mysteries in life is the desire to own a large house if one does not need a large house.

It sorta depends on what you consider a large house. We've been living in a 1470 SF house built in 1923 for the last 22 years. Both of us were routinely gone 12 hours a day at work. When we were both home over Covid for 6 months it became very clear that we both need our space. That's going to mean a bigger house in retirement.

How big? Not a lot bigger but but we both have our requirements that are not negotiable. She wants a full size dining room. I don't understand why and I don't need to I just need to respect her demand. I want a three car garage and room for a 750+ SF shop.

 

[GaryM]

When we were both home over Covid for 6 months it became very clear that we both need our space. That's going to mean a bigger house in retirement.

I hear you. My wife gave me this shirt for Christmas (though to be fair, I spotted it in a catalog and told her it was perfect for me).

 

[charheep]

But are you gonna sell your Comanche when you retire?

 

[EdFred]

I have a few floor plan designs I've done, and am shooting for a 2BR 2BA ranch in the 1500sf range. Probably a 5ft block and concrete crawlspace to house mechanical/water tank/heater. Would like to drop that down in the middle of 10+ wooded acres and have a detached barn/wood shop. A 30-60 minute drive to "civilization" isn't a big deal, but cheaper land 15-20 mins out would work too.