When are you officially IFR after departing VFR?

Larry in TN said:
Most of the airspace around the earth does not have radar coverage. We are spoiled by the good coverage we have over the US. Being in radar contact has no bearing on a flight's IFR vs VFR status.
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Lots of places in the inter-mountain west with no radar coverage below 10,000-12,000. KBIH is 17,000. KELY is 13,000 yet the Digital Chart Supplement shows an "R" by "Salt Lake Center approach/departure control." Is that misleading, or what?
 
Larry in TN said:
Most of the airspace around the earth does not have radar coverage. We are spoiled by the good coverage we have over the US. Being in radar contact has no bearing on a flight's IFR vs VFR status.
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I said this previously and some goofball engineer proved me wrong.

Actually unless you constrain your altitudes to below 18k or so. You are incorrect, I forget the exact altitude but somewhere around 18k you actually a majority of the airspace in the world is under radar coverage.
But for practical purposes, I agree. :)

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
I said this previously and some goofball engineer proved me wrong.
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How does that work with most of the earth being oceans and most of the oceans have no radar coverage?

I spend a lot of time flying non-radar in the mid-FL300s over the Gulf of Mexico and WATRS airspace between the east coast and Caribbean and that doesn't even get out to the "real" oceanic airspace.
 
midlifeflyer said:
AIM:
Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. (my emphasis)​

Based on that, I'm going with, if you are held for release and, instead of staying put, you take off VFR, you are not on an IFR clearance until you contact ATC and they say you are cleared.
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Agreed, but I would also add that if a pilot is given a ‘hold for release’ and then takes off VFR planning to pick it up in the air, they are officially an a-hole.
 
Larry in TN said:
How does that work with most of the earth being oceans and most of the oceans have no radar coverage?

I spend a lot of time flying non-radar in the mid-FL300s over the Gulf of Mexico and WATRS airspace between the east coast and Caribbean and that doesn't even get out to the "real" oceanic airspace.
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No clue; a bunch of math geeks debated it and all ended up agreeing with him.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Actually unless you constrain your altitudes to below 18k or so. You are incorrect, I forget the exact altitude but somewhere around 18k you actually a majority of the airspace in the world is under radar coverage.
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That is true for the continental U.S. and western Europe. OZ is covered, but mostly by ADS-B. Most of Africa has neither terminal nor en route radar. China has it on dense routes, but large areas with no radar. Same for eastern Russia, (except far east) Mongolia, etc.
 
Radar Contact said:
Saying "radar contact" does not make an aircraft IFR. What if you depart VFR and contact approach at 2500 with an IFR aircraft 500 above you, should the controller not radar identify you? They will radar ID you and if you're on your IFR code, tell you to maintain VFR. When they have approved separation, they will then issue you your IFR clearance. What you got on the ground was your route or expected clearance. If you were told to hold for release or not given a release then you are VFR (uncontrolled airport, takeoff clearance at a towered airport is automatic IFR when you have received your clearance on the ground).

From the 7110.65:
"Treat an aircraft planning VFR for the initial part of flight and IFR for the latter part as a VFR departure. Issue a clearance to this aircraft when it requests IFR clearance approaching the fix where it proposes to start IFR operations. The phraseology CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT AS FILED may be used with abbreviated departure clearance procedures."

"If clearance is to destination airport, the phraseology CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT must be used."

So, you get your "clearance" on the ground with the route, altitudes, freq, code, etc but not an IFR release and depart VFR, you are VFR. The controller Radar ID's you, you are VFR. When you request your clearance and the controller can legally issue it to you (traffic/mva/etc), the controller then will say, "N12345 cleared to Nashville airport, as filed...direct holly, direct molly, then as filed... etc climb and maintain 5000 expect 7000 in 10." Then and only then are you IFR.

Just my $0.02...If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about it. :)
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Maybe that's the way it should be based on the regulations, or the way its done in the Chicago TRACON, but at a non-towered airport in Central NJ near the outer ring of the NY Bravo it is commonplace for Clearance Delivery on the TRACON phone to provide a full route clearance ending with "hold for release". I repeat the clearance and if the weather allows for VFR to the initial altitude in the clearance I ask if I can depart VFR and activate the clearance in the air instead of holding for release. The response has always been yes. I then ask him to confirm that I should be squawking my assigned code and not 1200. Again the response has always been yes, squawk the assigned code. On take off I turn towards the initial fix and contact ATC on the assigned frequency as soon as there is a break and give them my altitude, location, and that I would like to activate my IFR clearance. The controller then responds with "radar contact, consider yourself IFR at this time." No full route clearance. Not even cleared to destination. Just radar contact, consider yourself IFR.

This communications all happens in maybe 10 seconds of me talking and maybe 5 seconds of the controller's response. That's all the time they have. As I mentioned in my earlier note, I have never heard a NY TRACON controller in our sector provide a full route clearance in the air. Maybe late at night. But never when I've been flying. They are talking nearly non-stop routing traffic into the Bravo airports. And any gaps they have are only a few seconds long. No time for "Cleared destination, as filed...direct holly, direct molly, then as filed... etc climb and maintain 5000 expect 7000 in 10."

Maybe if there were conflicting traffic they might respond differently to my request to activate my clearance. Maybe tell me to maintain VFR until the conflict resolves. I don't know as that has never happened to me (I don't fly IFR all that much, so I've done this maybe a dozen times with NY).

I've also done the same thing once with the Philadelphia TRACON and once with the McGuire RAPCON. In those cases I filed from a fix in their respective airspaces (fixes that were located near the boundary of NY airspace). Phoned their Clearance Delivery desk and asked them if I could pick up my clearance on the ground, depart VFR (no delay), and activate the clearance in the air as I approached the departure waypoint...rather than picking up the clearance in the air. In both cases they told me that I could do that and confirmed that I should be squawking the assigned code. I contacted them as I approached their airspace. Was told that I was radar contact and consider myself IFR at that time. No full route clearance in the air.
 
bkspero said:
I've read the thread and didn't see an answer to what I think the OP is asking (if I missed it, I apologize). If he/she gets an IFR clearance on the ground but coordinates with clearance delivery to depart VFR and activate that clearance in the air, when does his/her flight status change from VFR to IFR? I think the answer is when the controller advises radar contact.
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Definitely not - Radar contact just means radar contact, as others more qualified than I have said.

luvflyin said:
And the C130 at Jackson Hole
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You guys! At least post links to the accident reports...

Sinatra's mom: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=55869&key=0
Jackson Hole C130: https://www.usdeadlyevents.com/1996...esidential-support-mission-jackson-hole-wy-9/

Zeldman said:
For my self debrief I realized I was NOT prepared for a go around. I mean I never even thought about it until on the ground. Long term lesson learned, I have never failed to self brief the missed approach since then. Even the very little time I have with a 2 pilot crew, I always self briefed then did the crew brief for the approach and missed instructions.
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That was an excellent story. Thanks for sharing it!

bkspero said:
Maybe that's the way it should be based on the regulations, or the way its done in the Chicago TRACON, but at a non-towered airport in Central NJ near the outer ring of the NY Bravo it is commonplace for Clearance Delivery on the TRACON phone to provide a full route clearance ending with "hold for release". I repeat the clearance and if the weather allows for VFR to the initial altitude in the clearance I ask if I can depart VFR and activate the clearance in the air instead of holding for release. The response has always been yes. I then ask him to confirm that I should be squawking my assigned code and not 1200. Again the response has always been yes, squawk the assigned code. On take off I turn towards the initial fix and contact ATC on the assigned frequency as soon as there is a break and give them my altitude, location, and that I would like to activate my IFR clearance. The controller then responds with "radar contact, consider yourself IFR at this time." No full route clearance. Not even cleared to destination. Just radar contact, consider yourself IFR.
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The latter half of that is the important part, not the "Radar Contact." Sounds like nonstandard phraseology, though... You sure that's exactly what they said?
 
If you received a clearance with a void time and were released, you are IFR as soon as you begin to move on the airport surface.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The latter half of that is the important part, not the "Radar Contact." Sounds like nonstandard phraseology, though... You sure that's exactly what they said?
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I can't say with certainty that those were the exact words and the only exact words every time (...consider yourself IFR at this time), but I can say with certainty that those were the exact words more than once, that in all cases it was a short phrase confirming my change from VFR to IFR status at that time, and that the communication did not include the word "clearance", nor did it include either the destination or any of my waypoints (other than a possible position confirmation relative to the first waypoint...radar contact 6 south of XXX...consider yourself IFR at this time).
 
IK04 said:
If you received a clearance with a void time and were released, you are IFR as soon as you begin to move on the airport surface.
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Not beginning to move. It's when you get the Clearance, engines started or not. You don't even need to be in the airplane yet. It's not exactly "..'you' are IFR..." but to ATC you are and they have to block the airspace
 
I don’t care what all y’all are say’n.... you’re not IFR till you “accept” the clearance.

When does that occur? Let’s think bout that....
 
bkspero said:
I can't say with certainty that those were the exact words and the only exact words every time (...consider yourself IFR at this time), but I can say with certainty that those were the exact words more than once, that in all cases it was a short phrase confirming my change from VFR to IFR status at that time, and that the communication did not include the word "clearance", nor did it include either the destination or any of my waypoints (other than a possible position confirmation relative to the first waypoint...radar contact 6 south of XXX...consider yourself IFR at this time).
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I can believe that. You and they had precoordinated the whole thing and were on the same page. There is no particular procedure to cover that scenario. If your Clearance had included some detailed right after take off instructions, I think the controller might have said a few more words. Or if you had called them while still below the MIA he may have said a few other things.

EDIT: turns out there some 'particular procedures' at some places. See post # 61
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
I don’t care what all y’all are say’n.... you’re not IFR till you “accept” the clearance.

When does that occur? Let’s think bout that....
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Now we're havin fun. Controller gives you the Clearance. He doesn't get a read back. Is that because you didn't get it and read it back? Or because your transmitter just went nips up?
 
aterpster said:
Lots of places in the inter-mountain west with no radar coverage below 10,000-12,000. KBIH is 17,000. KELY is 13,000 yet the Digital Chart Supplement shows an "R" by "Salt Lake Center approach/departure control." Is that misleading, or what?
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The R just means it's a Radar Approach Control. I don't think any Radar Approach facility has Radar coverage to the ground through out the entire boundaries of their airspace. What would the cut off point be to decide if there is going to be an R or not? Here's an example of where a Radar Approach didn't get the R. It's at one of their satellite airports. 3S8, Grants Pass, OR. Cascade Approach is a Radar Approach Control. They are located at Eugene, KEUG. They have a Radar antenna their and at Medford, KMFR. Cascade Approach gets the R at EUG and MFR, but not at 3S8. I gotta agree the R at BIH and ELY is wrong. There are many Center controlled airports that don't show an R even though all US Centers are Radar facilities. RDM is an example
 
IK04 said:
If you received a clearance with a void time and were released, you are IFR as soon as you begin to move on the airport surface.
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Well, actually as soon as you take off. While you are on the ground you are subject to the void time expiring.
 
I’m down South for the winter and am looking in the Southwest Chart Supplement to see what’s new since I was down here last and find the SOLEDAD DEPARTURE for KMYF on page 436. It’s “for use with an IFR clearance.” It says this, “After departure fly heading 270 maintain VFR at or below 2,500’ MSL. Expect IFR activation and climb clearance 3NM West of KMYF. Reciept of a climb clearance constitutes activation of IFR clearance.”

There are others. COZY ONE VFR DEPARTURE at KASE. Page 433 of the Southwest Supplement.
Southeast: AIR DEVIL DEPARTURE at KLOU and SHERIDAN/SHORELINE DEPARTURE at KHWO, pages 442 and 443.
Northeast: DALTON 2 DEPARTURE PROCEDURE at KTEB, page 434.
East Central: CABAA VISUAL DEPARTURE at KPWK, pages 392-393.

So there are some ‘procedures’ where you get your clearance on the ground, depart VFR then when they’re ready to, ATC ‘activates’ your clearance with just a couple words. At all of them except the one at KPWK, they do it by simply assigning you an altitude. At KPWK it says “ATC will advise activation of IFR Clearance.” @Radar Contact , how long has this thing been around?

Thought I'd page y'all who've been participating in this thread seeing as how it's been awhile and you may just not be caring about it anymore. Figured you'd find this interesting. @Mike21380 @Larry in TN @frfly172 @Ryanb @genna @James331 @Velocity173 @aterpster @midwestpa24 @midlifeflyer @Checkout_my_Six @Palmpilot @SbestCFII @RussR @asicer @flyingcheesehead @bkspero @flyingron
 
luvflyin said:
Not beginning to move. It's when you get the Clearance, engines started or not. You don't even need to be in the airplane yet. It's not exactly "..'you' are IFR..." but to ATC you are and they have to block the airspace
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Yeah, that is correct. I was thinking of the conditions for accident reporting if a mishap occurs. In the "type operation" box, it will say "IFR" no matter what.
 
luvflyin said:
I’m down South for the winter and am looking in the Southwest Chart Supplement to see what’s new since I was down here last and find the SOLEDAD DEPARTURE for KMYF on page 436. It’s “for use with an IFR clearance.” It says this, “After departure fly heading 270 maintain VFR at or below 2,500’ MSL. Expect IFR activation and climb clearance 3NM West of KMYF. Reciept of a climb clearance constitutes activation of IFR clearance.”

There are others. COZY ONE VFR DEPARTURE at KASE. Page 433 of the Southwest Supplement.
Southeast: AIR DEVIL DEPARTURE at KLOU and SHERIDAN/SHORELINE DEPARTURE at KHWO, pages 442 and 443.
Northeast: DALTON 2 DEPARTURE PROCEDURE at KTEB, page 434.
East Central: CABAA VISUAL DEPARTURE at KPWK, pages 392-393.

So there are some ‘procedures’ where you get your clearance on the ground, depart VFR then when they’re ready to, ATC ‘activates’ your clearance with just a couple words. At all of them except the one at KPWK, they do it by simply assigning you an altitude. At KPWK it says “ATC will advise activation of IFR Clearance.” @Radar Contact , how long has this thing been around?

Thought I'd page y'all who've been participating in this thread seeing as how it's been awhile and you may just not be caring about it anymore. Figured you'd find this interesting.
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I was generally aware these existed - specific procedures which include a VFR segment. And, of course, in these, they tell you the answer to the topic question.

Interesting what one can find browsing the Chart Supplement, ain't it?
 
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luvflyin said:
I’m down South for the winter and am looking in the Southwest Chart Supplement to see what’s new since I was down here last and find the SOLEDAD DEPARTURE for KMYF on page 436. It’s “for use with an IFR clearance.” It says this, “After departure fly heading 270 maintain VFR at or below 2,500’ MSL. Expect IFR activation and climb clearance 3NM West of KMYF. Reciept of a climb clearance constitutes activation of IFR clearance.”

There are others. COZY ONE VFR DEPARTURE at KASE. Page 433 of the Southwest Supplement.
Southeast: AIR DEVIL DEPARTURE at KLOU and SHERIDAN/SHORELINE DEPARTURE at KHWO, pages 442 and 443.
Northeast: DALTON 2 DEPARTURE PROCEDURE at KTEB, page 434.
East Central: CABAA VISUAL DEPARTURE at KPWK, pages 392-393.

So there are some ‘procedures’ where you get your clearance on the ground, depart VFR then when they’re ready to, ATC ‘activates’ your clearance with just a couple words. At all of them except the one at KPWK, they do it by simply assigning you an altitude. At KPWK it says “ATC will advise activation of IFR Clearance.” @Radar Contact , how long has this thing been around?

Thought I'd page y'all who've been participating in this thread seeing as how it's been awhile and you may just not be caring about it anymore. Figured you'd find this interesting. @Mike21380 @Larry in TN @frfly172 @Ryanb @genna @James331 @Velocity173 @aterpster @midwestpa24 @midlifeflyer @Checkout_my_Six @Palmpilot @SbestCFII @RussR @asicer @flyingcheesehead @bkspero @flyingron
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San Carlos (SQL) could use one of those.

"Cessna 12345, San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. Squawk 1234."​
 
"Maintain VFR conditions" isn't the same as "Maintain VFR."
 
aterpster said:
The difference being?
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"Maintain VFR" means you are operating under visual flight rules.

"Maintain VFR conditions" means you are being instructed to maintain VFR cloud clearances, but you are otherwise operating under an IFR clearance (VFR On Top is an example)
 
midlifeflyer said:
"Maintain VFR" means you are operating under visual flight rules.

"Maintain VFR conditions" means you are being instructed to maintain VFR cloud clearances, but you are otherwise operating under an IFR clearance (VFR On Top is an example)
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It’s similar to VFR on top but not the same. “Maintain VFR conditions” is given by ATC for an aircraft requesting a VFR climb / descent or for noise abatement.

VFR on top is for an aircraft that will be operating IMC for a period of time in the climb and then once on top instructed “maintain VFR on top.”
 
Larry in TN said:
Is IFR separation being provided on these IFR procedures which have a segment where you must maintain VFR conditions?
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Yes. Except for Luv’s example above.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
"Maintain VFR" means you are operating under visual flight rules.

"Maintain VFR conditions" means you are being instructed to maintain VFR cloud clearances, but you are otherwise operating under an IFR clearance (VFR On Top is an example)
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7110.65 uses the terms interchangeably, but excludes VFR on top. (Chapter 7 and the P/C Glossary.)
 
Velocity173 said:
It’s similar to VFR on top but not the same. “Maintain VFR conditions” is given by ATC for an aircraft requesting a VFR climb / descent or for noise abatement.

VFR on top is for an aircraft that will be operating IMC for a period of time in the climb and then once on top instructed “maintain VFR on top.”
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Yes. I worded that badly. I meant VFR on Top as another example of VFR conditions while on an IFR flight plan.
 
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aterpster said:
7110.65 uses the terms interchangeably, but excludes VFR on top. (Chapter 7 and the P/C Glossary.)
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Not completely. "Maintain VFR" is standard fare for VFR flight following and practice instrument approaches while operating under VFR. "Maintain VFR conditions" is more common for someone operating under IFR, as in @Velocity173 's example of a VFR climb on an instrument flight plan. There may one or two which are close, but most of the 7110.65 examples fall into one or the other category.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not completely. "Maintain VFR" is standard fare for VFR flight following and practice instrument approaches while operating under VFR. "Maintain VFR conditions" is more common for someone operating under IFR, as in @Velocity173 's example of a VFR climb on an instrument flight plan. There may one or two which are close, but most of the 7110.65 examples fall into one or the other category.
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I think they are interchangeable on an IFR flight plan (excluding VFR on Top):

7-1-2 VFR Conditions uses "VFR Conditions" except for "Climb/Descend VFR."

PCG:

"VISUAL METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS− Meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling equal to or better than specified minima."
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Then, there is this, which further muddies the water, especially c.:

VFR CONDITIONS− Weather conditions equal to or better than the minimum for flight under visual flight rules. The term may be used as an ATC clearance/instruction only when:

a. An IFR aircraft requests a climb/descent in VFR conditions.

b. The clearance will result in noise abatement benefits where part of the IFR departure route does not conform to an FAA approved noise abatement route or altitude.

c. A pilot has requested a practice instrument approach and is not on an IFR flight plan.
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Palmpilot said:
San Carlos (SQL) could use one of those.

"Cessna 12345, San Carlos Ground, cleared to the Half Moon Bay Airport. On departure, fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within two miles of the airport, for radar vectors to Woodside, direct Tails, direct. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1,100 until crossing the Oakland 165 radial. Then climb and maintain 2,100. Expect 5,000 five minutes after departure. Norcal Departure Control frequency 135.65. Squawk 1234."​
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Get a hold of NORCAL, show them the examples. Maybe they'll look into building some of those in their territory.
 
Larry in TN said:
Is IFR separation being provided on these IFR procedures which have a segment where you must maintain VFR conditions?
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not during the time you are maintaining VFR. That's the point. If they had to separate you then, there would be no point. Just like VFR OTP
 
aterpster said:
Then, there is this, which further muddies the water, especially c.:
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I understand the definition of "VFR conditions." When I said there was a difference between "maintain VFR" (for VFR ops) and "maintain VFR conditions" (for IFR ops) I was referring to the dozen or so examples in the 7110.65 (discounting the VFR-on-Top ones).

In addition to the one already posted, good one is the query to pop-up requests for IFR clearances, in which ATC asks (using the example form the AT Handbook at paragraph 4-2-8.d.), "November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?". Pilot says, "yes," issue the IFR clearance; pilot says "no" don't issue the IFR clearance. And yes, I know ATC will sometimes ask that question of an IFR operation. But it's formal use under the Order is for VFR pop-ups."

On the flip side is the only two examples of "maintain VFR conditions" at 7-1-2, which clearly contemplate IFR flights.

It's really just semantics, but I've discovered semantics tend to be important in ATC communications.
 
Check out this video on youtube.

The pilot regulary flies from Auburn (KAUN) to Oakland (KOAK). On that flight weather permitting he often files a IFR flight plan, departs the non towered field vfr and picks up his ifr in the air from socal. That video is an example. (You need to watch on the youtube site as he has disabled watching from other sites.)
 
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