PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
The labor seems excessive for the tire, it does say dispatch tech to airplane, maybe there is travel involved, plus the wheel needs to be sourced, was it picked up? The shipping is probably overnight.
Wheel broke into half
- Thread starter stevensun
- Start date
The labor seems excessive for the tire, it does say dispatch tech to airplane, maybe there is travel involved, plus the wheel needs to be sourced, was it picked up? The shipping is probably overnight.
To keep things in perspective, I noticed a "dispatched technician" comment on the invoice along with 2 "incoming freight" charges. How many times the mechanic have to travel to the aircraft and how long did it take him to do so?
Curious. So how much do you think it should cost?
Ha. However, no self-respecting mechanic would ever waste a nickel on such a frivolous toy. Instead, we usually use any over-charges, mark ups, and kick-backs to fund our lavish early-retirements so we don't have to listen to pilots whine about how expensive their aircraft are because their Porsche dealer is up to $150/hr to change the oil, the marina mooring rates are up to $150/foot, and their girlfriends apartment rent went up $10.
Dan Thomas
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 11,365
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Thomas
First thing would be to see if that hanger is even supposed to be there. A check of the parts manual will find out. See, that hanger is attached to the engine mount, which doeen't move, and to the exhaust, which moves a LOT on a Dynafocal engine, which that one is. There's a rubber loop in the hanger that should be soft and supple, not hardened and cracking, if that thing is supposed to be there in the first place.
If it shouldn't be there, it will cause cracking to that exhaust system sooner or later, by yanking on it every time the engine fires and torques the engine against the propeller's mass. It could bend that mount tube as well. Same thing goes for how any hoses or wires are restrained to the mount and engine: leave plenty of slack for movement or you'll be replacing damaged stuff.
Shipping is overnight, I had my airplane at SJC signature; which is 5 mins walk distance from their shop (same airport. Very close). Wheel source part ( I was there and they were making calls, 1 hour max and we decided to buy this particular assembly).
Clean bird nest is different time(annual) and I Feel like if I would do it myself, I probably can clean the airplane inside out within an hour.
Last edited:
So if it’s suppose to be there, check if rubber is soft and doing its job.
If not suppose to be there, remove it??? Or restore to the original way?
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
SJC, being an international Charlie, runs significantly higher for most service than the surrounding airports. Also, the mechanics are happier working a JetA burner, so I would expect longer times for the stuff they're less familiar with. You were kinda stuck, though, as you broke and were unairworthy. Thems the breaks, sometimes.
Dan Thomas
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 11,365
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Thomas
The parts manual will show what is supposed to be there. Perhaps something else was originally used, something that held the exhaust to the engine instead of the engine mount. I'd also want a good look, with a flashlight and mirror, at the flanged end of that particular pipe where it bolts to the cylinder head. They tend to crack right close to that weld.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
You best check which STC applies before you order parts.
Stevensun
Your comment about cleaning the bird nests is a good example of why finding an IA that will let you assist with the annual. Even if you just remove the seats, carpet, and inspection panels you’ll learn a lot about your plane and can take the time to do the grunt work your mechanic probably doesn’t love to do.
I’m guessing that finding the bird nests resulted in a very detailed look for corrosion throughout the plane so it’s likely that more time was required than what it took to just remove the nests.
You can change oil, replace tires, and do other tasks that are specifically listed as owner permitted maintenance. I think it’s a good idea to have an experienced A&P or IA show you how to do those tasks the first time because more detail is required than the work most do on cars. For example, most don’t safety wire the oil filters on their cars.
Asking your mechanic to go through the owner permitted maintenance tasks with you can be a good way to start the discussion about what you can do to assist with annuals in the future. In my experience, a high percentage of the A&P’s / IA’s that work out of smaller shops are happy to help educate an owner on how to properly maintain their plane. As the mechanics see that you will take the time to do those tasks right they will tend to trust you to assist with additional work.
Gary
Your comment about cleaning the bird nests is a good example of why finding an IA that will let you assist with the annual. Even if you just remove the seats, carpet, and inspection panels you’ll learn a lot about your plane and can take the time to do the grunt work your mechanic probably doesn’t love to do.
I’m guessing that finding the bird nests resulted in a very detailed look for corrosion throughout the plane so it’s likely that more time was required than what it took to just remove the nests.
You can change oil, replace tires, and do other tasks that are specifically listed as owner permitted maintenance. I think it’s a good idea to have an experienced A&P or IA show you how to do those tasks the first time because more detail is required than the work most do on cars. For example, most don’t safety wire the oil filters on their cars.
Asking your mechanic to go through the owner permitted maintenance tasks with you can be a good way to start the discussion about what you can do to assist with annuals in the future. In my experience, a high percentage of the A&P’s / IA’s that work out of smaller shops are happy to help educate an owner on how to properly maintain their plane. As the mechanics see that you will take the time to do those tasks right they will tend to trust you to assist with additional work.
Gary
I didn’t know how to find a good IA or AP to let me assist, I guess that involves a referral from friends of just going out and see the small shops. Most of the bigger shops I asked just straight out refuse owner assist. Next annual I will ask in this forum to see if any AP around San Jose Area can help with that. (I saw there is another post about this also). And what you say about having bird nest cause more inspection make sense for the extra time, I just didn’t know. I guess it’s a good idea to communicate more with AP even about the price. Always I feel it’s hard to quantify the actual amount of time, so that’s why I didn’t even bother to ask.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,838
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
Small shop, big shop, the key is having a relationship which goes beyond just being an owner with a credit card or checkbook. With a relationship, you can have the discussion about an owner assist annual, even if all you do is pull and later reinstall the inspection panels. With a relationship, you can ask someone you trust "What would you do if you were in my situation?" which I always find is a good question to ask of someone who's more of an expert than I am.
Yes, it is important to quantify the amount of time. That's why you should ask for a quote in writing, particularly if you don't have a comfortable relationship with the shop. Otherwise, a shop can take advantage of you. Not that I'm saying that is what happened here.
Yes, it is important to quantify the amount of time. That's why you should ask for a quote in writing, particularly if you don't have a comfortable relationship with the shop. Otherwise, a shop can take advantage of you. Not that I'm saying that is what happened here.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Also make sure you have at least a small amount of mechanical ability. I know many people who should just pay to have things done.
Dan Thomas
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 11,365
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Thomas
Some insurance companies forbid customers in the shop. Not only because they can get hurt (and sue), but because they could do something on the vehicle that leads to a failure and/or accident, and they'd sue then, too. Airplanes are particularly fussy about having stuff done carefully and properly. Way back in post #15 of this thread we saw what can happen when nuts or bolts are overtightened; the non-aircraft mechanic is often surprised at how little torque is applied to aircraft fasteners compared to automotive stuff. Overtightening can not only break the hardware; it can crush whatever it's holding.
An owner that drops a sparkplug on the concrete while cleaning or gapping it is going to be mightily tempted to just pick it up and carry on rather than saying anything. Plugs are expensive.
An owner that drops a sparkplug on the concrete while cleaning or gapping it is going to be mightily tempted to just pick it up and carry on rather than saying anything. Plugs are expensive.
That’s where people have no sense of mechanic and physics sense at all and people do stuff and learn and interested in how stuff works and have engineering degree differs.
Not saying that I am capable(if I am capable And have time, I should just get my A&P and IA) but there are people to just take the bolt off of something and that’s it. And there are people analyze when that bolt is taken off, how things might rotate and fall. When tightening stuff to torque, rotating in one continues motion compare to stopped it’s different, stopped cause higher static friction and might cause under torque, and under torque can cause something nasty as well (engine stuff especially).
And as you said, people who understand how spark plugs works and will understand the spark plug gap is critical and ask A&P and online is needed because usually people know more, not only knowledge, but experience as well.
But I don’t see why a person with interest and want learn cannot be supervised to take off some screws and panels, A&P can also let the person know potential caveats (I am sure there won’t be list of hundreds of them for just taking off some exterior screws, or seat rails, etc)
Man this COVID thing is getting me. So board at home. I was working on my CPL and IFR, now my training came to complete stop.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
If you drop a plug, drop it again this time be certain it hit the shi- can.
I find when owners change plugs they change by sets, and that results in good plugs being thrown away, I use these to replace the ones I need to replaced.
I can tell from owners to owners, it might be day and night of how much time they put in to their aircraft. I am sure there are people haven’t even heard of torque wrench before.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I change plugs on condition and I'm glad the owner before did too. At $25 a pop, that's $200 for my 4 banger.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,022
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
I've worked with PHD electrical engineers that I wouldn't trust to fix a flashlight.
But they are really good at math.
pretty sure PHD EE have better chance of fixing a flashlight compare to an idk, artist or musician. (If they both trying to)
Dan Thomas
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2008
- Messages
- 11,365
- Display Name
Display name:
Dan Thomas
Unfortunately, insurance companies simply say "no customers in the shop." They don't make allowances for guys with engineering degrees or auto mechanics or anything else. It is really good for an interested owner to see what's inside his airplane, get a look at how the systems all work, and for the mechanic to explain why this or that needs replacing or overhauling or whatever. It takes a mechanic time to do that and distracts him from his work, though, and adds to the bill the customer gets. Lots of mechanics are really capable people but have lousy social skills, which is why they're mechanics and not counsellors. They're worried about the bill getting big enough to make the owner angry. They're worried about the owner's questions distracting them from some critical task that might not get completed due to the distraction, like an elevator hinge bolt nut or whatever. Didn't get torqued up or the cotter pin didn't get put in. Distraction is a major factor in maintenance errors.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
I have never seen such a shop.
Every shop I have seen will take customers into the shop to explain stuff
Paul_Havelka
Pre-Flight
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2019
- Messages
- 87
- Display Name
Display name:
Paul_Havelka
Hang out with the old timers at the FBO when they are drinking their morning coffee and start relationships with them. I’m sure they know an IA that would be more than willing to do owner assisted. I am just under a year of ownership on my first plane and I was able to find an IA that let me do all the work. I did my research and the plane was ready for him before he ever got there. He also allowed me to do my own avionics install and I’ll be rebuilding the main landing gears on my pa28 later today
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Man that’s awesome.
Brad Z
Final Approach
I suspect more service managers have a "no customers in shop" company policy than actual insurance policies with a "no customers in shop" provision. The insurance companies are just the scapegoat for the service manager.
FWIW: I believe in the context of customers working in a shop. i.e., owner-assisted maintenance, the insurance companies usually restrict it or require an additional rider. As the number of mx insurance underwriters declined in the 90s, a number of shops that I worked with started dropping owner-assisted projects for this reason. Under some instances even I wasn't permitted to work in the shop as an A&P unless I was an "official" contractor or something similar.
Stevensun:
A lot of the airplane owners at the airport I’m at spend time doing things with their planes on the weekends, I’ve had good luck finding the IA’s I work with by walking around the airport talking to the people I find doing things with their planes.
I’ve also made good friends that way, been invited to local fly-ins or $100 hamburger runs, and have gotten invitations to fly in other folks planes. I highly recommend walking around the hangers or Saturdays. That is also sometimes referred to as ‘hanger-flying’ and is a great aviation activity.
Gary
A lot of the airplane owners at the airport I’m at spend time doing things with their planes on the weekends, I’ve had good luck finding the IA’s I work with by walking around the airport talking to the people I find doing things with their planes.
I’ve also made good friends that way, been invited to local fly-ins or $100 hamburger runs, and have gotten invitations to fly in other folks planes. I highly recommend walking around the hangers or Saturdays. That is also sometimes referred to as ‘hanger-flying’ and is a great aviation activity.
Gary