Ravioli
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Because WE can if and when WE choose.
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What will you do with me (and others like me?)
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Because WE can if and when WE choose.
OkieAviator
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I support LGB but find the TQ bizarre..... is it offensive if I don't lump 'them' together?
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Ravioli
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LGB is a very nice airport. I wish it had more operations.
[Probably not what you were talking about]
[Probably not what you were talking about]
Cooter
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Tribalism is the natural inclination of sinful man. It's kind of the default position unless something propels us to a higher level. So once a few stabilizing influences are removed, the vector is towards tribalism.
When you say it doesn't work, that depends upon what the ultimate goal is. It has "worked" quite well for charismatic leaders in the past. We need to agree on what the goal is before we can turn it around.
Anymouse
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Total Stud Bush Pilot
Not upsetting to me at all.
I support all the amendments except the 16th and 18th.
Not a hunter or vegan. Well, I hunt at the grocery store.
Not totally eye to eye on all these, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don't shove it down my throat.
Sorry, but I gotta kill those blood suckers!!
Can't complain too much about the mistakes that have been made in regards to military force. It's kept me employed for the last 13 years. But I do think thinks should have been done differently. Now that we stepped in it, we have to follow through.
LEDs!!
Seriously, all this political stuff and the thread is still open??
denverpilot
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I think that's more of a media bias and more information flying at everyone from everywhere than back then, than a real measurable increase in the bad behavior. Statistics still show only about 2% are openly racist.
It's kinda like the people who are more fearful today of violent crime than in the 80s. All indicators are that violent crime is WAY down since then, but we hear about more of it from places that have always suffered from it due to poverty or inaction of local law enforcement.
And violent crime has become significantly more personal too. You're way more likely to be murdered by someone you know deeply personally, than a stranger. And even then, it's a tiny number.
But you see more of it via ever-present media today than the 80s because no internet and three TV channels back then.
The world looks scarier than it looked back then, but in terms of actual danger, it was more dangerous then and much less so, today.
Try telling that to the new parents with kids watching the news who won't even let the kids go to the park alone anymore, and some cities where one can be arrested for allowing kids to do so.
Society wasn't prepared for 24/7 media and still isn't handling it very well. And with media automatically customized to your tastes by computers, if all you watch is "scary news" the computers are happily going to feed you links to watch more of whatever scares you.
They measure their success as publishers AND literally get paid, by keeping your attention glued to that screen. They know how many seconds between clicks, and know if you stayed at the screen or put it down to go do something more interesting or pressing.
azblackbird
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Who's running for office here?
I don't see anybody touting a platform. All I saw was an OP (albeit in my opinion maybe a little mis-guided) who's seeking validation and acceptance. Nothing wrong with that.
PeterNSteinmetz
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What evidence is there that warming will be some sort of irreversible non-mitigateable event? That strikes me as a very unproven assumption. Humans have been adapting to changes for a very long time.
3393RP
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I think it's important for reasonable people to discuss this. So far we are examining very unsettling trends in behavior by people in our country, and the discussion has remained respectful and open.
I hope participants will continue to respect boundaries while making their observations about this mess.
denverpilot
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Not even sure it's that big of a "mess". Just because it's on the TV all day every day, doesn't make it bigger than what's actually going on around you in real life in your city.
People would just rather be told what the "big deal" stuff is while sitting on the sofa staring at the TV or the iPad, than admit their daily lives are pretty safe, even dull, and boring.
The only interaction they really have with others if they don't work directly with the public, is the same boring people as themselves, standing at the water cooler at the office. Even working with the public, there's no real connections there.
So, they go to work, go home, live lives that only a couple generations ago would consider living like royalty, and search for meaning to it all in the media over dinner.
The media, who's goal is NOT to report on the mundane, covers some wild stuff, and "everyone" becomes communally "upset" about all of it.
My grandparents and their parents didn't have much time to be "upset" over much. They barely knew what was going on when the government told them they needed to send all the young men off to a war halfway around the globe. They were already working on the farm sun up to sundown before that happened. And losing an average of one kid to a disease out of every five.
My dad's generation, things were getting cushier overall, but the poor kids still got drafted and thrown into another war halfway around the planet. By then the rich kids didn't have to go.
My generation? I feel like I hit the freaking jackpot. Lower middle class and some of the family finally moved out of the trailer parks? Life was pretty darn good. And still is. For huge numbers of people.
But the TV will always show you the worst wherever they can find it. That's just what they do for a living. They have 24 hours to fill today and easily 10 channels of it, compared to four hours a day and three channels when I was a kid. They literally have to make it all seem more important than any of it actually is, to survive.
All the major newspapers are laying off editorial staff. That ought to tell you how much garbage is coming next from the media. Won't even be an editor between you and the endless drivel from those who believe themselves to be "journalists" who are all writing the same stories.
The media machine HAS to feed on itself in an endless feedback loop now. It has no other option. The same publication that publishes some "scary" (and often partisan) garbage is simultaneously publishing articles analyzing whether their competition is being partisan or biased in their "reporting".
Toss a 100 person Klan "rally" video from some produnk nowhere backwater where the participants had to be rounded up from 20 states to even hold the thing, and the number of cameras (including every cell phone) outnumber the participants, and it's like throwing a life ring to a drowning man, for the media. Similar rallies 40 years ago were numbered in the thousands and were all people from the area.
Many, dare I say, most of these bigger rallies, protests, whatever... are essentially flash mobs anyway... people with a lot of time on their hands and extremely cheap mobility (the murderous twit with the car running over people in Virginia traveled there from freaking OHIO for goodness sakes) along with notifications from the Internet that they should come to somewhere and cause problems... that's essentially the real size of these things.
Even the silly "Occupy Wall Street" of a few years ago was just much lower than single digit percentages of local populations camping out in parks with protest signs and pithy signs on sticks. And that was a LOT more people than anyone's found to video doing racist rally crap.
2%. Count the next 100 people you see. It's unlikely you have significant relationships with 100 people but you can count. Literally count. Two of those people are racist enough to openly practice racism and admit it.
Obviously that number is still too high overall, but it's still so far out of the majority, it shouldn't get more than a couple of hours of air time anywhere if the media was "reporting" on real life.
The only way it CAN grow is that the media covers it and helps those two idiots connect. Otherwise they're lost in a sea of people who aren't racist and wondering if they should post online seeking similarly minded idiots knowing the majority find them truly offensive, and not one of them should ever get a camera and a mic for an interview or recorded at a podium.
And light aircraft are dangerous death traps because the media covers the crashes, and not the hundreds of thousands of successful flights every week. Same deal.
luvflyin
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Yeah. It can't be proven. I'm pretty sure though that if it turns out that suckin out all that goo down there and burnin it turns out to have had some not so desirable consequences, that it's gonna be kinda hard to put it back down there and cry "I didn't really know for sure this was gonna happen." Maybe it's "mitigateable" if "mitigation" happens sooner rather than later.
Cajun_Flyer
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I'm from southern Louisiana, but been up in MA for 6 yrs now. I naively thought it would be less racist up here, but was quickly proven otherwise. They just cover it with a whole lotta rainbows and butterflies... pretending to be more open and accepting than they really are.
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
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Agreed. The only issue is that the media appears to be enhancing one side of the conversation or the other. All of them do it. I used to like it as I could get counter points on topics where I didn't understand why people thought the way they do.
But now I talk to people that don't want to hear the other side, locking them into a tight spiral of reinforcing beliefs. Unfortunately all the big topics of today are complex and far from one sided.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Not sure I'm buying that definition. Guns are quite non-PC these days and I know three ultra-Liberals with larger gun collections than mine. And my collection isn't "small" but it's not "huge" either. They're all strongly pro-2A and tend to think that particular topic of the so-called "progressive" agenda is silly.
Of course the media would describe it as "an arsenal" which I think is cute. I wouldn't describe anything without at least one machine gun in it as a proper "arsenal". Ha. Minigun would be better. And grenades.Artillery if you can transport it. Missiles would also be good. LOL.
You'd have gotten along well with Tench Coxe who wrote this.
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American." ---Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
Every other terrible implement of the soldier would be quite the arsenal to have.
Trouble that can be avoided by well established police tactics.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-attack-right-wing-demonstrators-in-berkeley/
Another case of a liberal college town mayor pulling back his cops and allowing violent extremists attack other (in this case nonviolent) extremists.
Both Berkeley incidents (the attack on the douchebag Milo and this one), create martyrs for 'the movement' . You cited your upbringing in a white supremacist regime ( I assume SA), I happen to come from the place where the Nazis were invented. Incidents like Berkeley have the role of the 'Feldherrenhalle' shootout in the real Nazi movement. They further the sense of grievance and allow the nutters to point out the bias on the side of law enforcement. They can't get much mileage out of last years Pikesville,KY rally. They came, said some ignorant garbage, the locals laughed at them and it is forgotten a couple of weeks later. Charlottesville and Berkeley are the sources of energy they need. Counter-protesting is counter productive, certainly whenever violence is involved.
DFH65
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Personally I think there is a whole lot more wag the dog stuff going on than people know. Before you say one group is doing this or doing that and I don't care what side you are talking about, first prove to me it is the group and not their opponents doing it. The American people are gullible and the 24 hour news cycle is just as happy to covering lies as truth after all they need something to talk about.
On balance there are very few extremists on either side of these arguments but they are the squeaky wheels and they make for good headlines. The VAST MAJORITY of people are not racist, homophobic, genocidal maniacs who eat unborn babies and hate the planet, believe it or not.
On balance there are very few extremists on either side of these arguments but they are the squeaky wheels and they make for good headlines. The VAST MAJORITY of people are not racist, homophobic, genocidal maniacs who eat unborn babies and hate the planet, believe it or not.
And the vast majority of people horrified by the Nazis and compelled to demonstrate against them are not club wielding masked antifa anarchist thugs either.
azblackbird
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If those who are screaming the loudest about mitigating the worlds problems would follow their own mantra... there'd be no problems, and then they'd have nothing to scream about.
DFH65
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Agree completely this is my point exactly. Why are you not seeing these peaceful demonstrators? I would argue it is because the 24 hour news media isn't interested in boring old peaceful protesters? Neither Nazi's or Antifa represent the views of most people but they are all you are hearing about.
I would also say I am more disgusted and saddened by Nazis than horrified. Horrified would give them too much credit for their effect on my emotional state.
redtail
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Go back and take another look at that Qur'an verse. Again, I'm not at all interested in preaching, but there's wisdom in ALL of the scriptures. Allah (God) said He created us and made us into tribes and families that we may KNOW each other. Not hate each other. 49:13 "O mankind, surely We have created you from a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other. Surely the noblest of you with Allah is the most dutiful of you. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware."
Look at the birds, fish, etc. They tend to flock together, not out of hatred for one another. You asked.. "Is it racism when Black people choose to gather with one another over mixing?". Not at all. Neither is it racism when whites, reds, brown or yellow (people) do so. As long as mutual respect for others exist and we treat each other with decency.
However, if we are going to ever get to the root of the problem of racial hatred (in particular "white supremacy") and it's negative (and often violent) impact on the lives of others, we have to go wayyyy back to the beginning. HOW did it begin?
WHERE did this false ideology of "white" / light skin, straight hair=better, come from?
WHERE did this false ideology of..."God, his angels and all things good are white, black things are bad/evil", come from?
This is why I mentioned Cain's hatred and murder of this brother Abel, his flesh and blood. Born of the same parents! It's actually a form of self hatred.
Some of you are scientist. Science has slowly (and reluctantly) began to admit that the oldest human beings (Adam and Eve) were indeed, BLACK.
Created from black earth (soil), bearing witness to the Qur'an. That's not a badge of superiority, it's just a fact.
15:25 And surely thy Lord will gather them together. He indeed is Wise, Knowing.
15:26 And surely We created man of sounding clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.
15:27 And the jinn, We created before of intensely hot fire.
15:28 And when thy Lord said to the angels: I am going to create a mortal of sounding clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.
Then God instructs his angels to humble themselves to man, but one was too proud, he felt "SUPERIOR"
15:29 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
15:30 So the angels made obeisance, all of them together —
15:31 But Iblis (did it not). He refused to be with those who made obeisance.
15:32 He said: O Iblis, what is the reason that thou art not with those who make obeisance?
15:33 He said: I am not going to make obeisance to a mortal, whom Thou hast created of sounding clay, of black mud fashioned into shape.
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."
~Prophet Muhammad’s
Last Sermon 632AD
30:20 And of His signs is this, that He created you from dust, then lo! you are mortals (who) scatter.
30:21 And of His signs is this, that He created mates for you from yourselves that you might find quiet of mind in them, and He put between you love and compassion. Surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
30:22 And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your tongues and colors. Surely there are signs in this for the learned.
Allah: Allah is the Arabic word for The One and Only God, The Creator and Sustainer of the universe. It is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for the God (Eloh-im in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, pbuh).
pbuh: Peace Be Upon Him/Her. This expression of respect is used for all prophets and messengers of Allah. As well as others of faith.
Jinn were created (before man) as creatures with free will; some will choose to be good and others will choose to be bad. But, they are all responsible for their actions.
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Ravioli
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FTFY
Science, or a quick read of a map? We're talking about the Tigris Euphrates Valley. What dullard thinks there were a bunch of honkeys there? Sheesh.
Rushie
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I think it's obvious where the white skin supremacy idea came from, but it doesn't explain that all other colors and ethnicities also practice racism including Asians against other Asians, black Africans against other black Africans, etc. etc.
White Europeans had superior technology. It led them to develop ships to sail about and conquer other lands. They had writing, printing, and science, metallurgy, and military advances way beyond the peoples of the Americas and the continent of Africa, Australia, and the Asian subcontinent and islands. They got to this level of technology first, and so conquered. This is where the idea comes from but it is a perversion to think this means whites are morally superior, or intellectually or genetically superior. The reasons they developed these technologies first probably had something to do with geology and climate that allowed Europe and the Mideast to trade and exchange advances along common latitudes.
There is no point in denying that the whites colonizing the Americas had superior technology and advanced culture. To do so is silly. Native Americans were still in the Stone Age, literally. But the problem is putting a superior VALUE on this. Indeed, I can argue that the stone age natives actually are the superior culture because maybe they live more in harmony with nature and don't deplete resources as badly as the advanced Europeans.
There is a very good book about a white settler child captured by the Comanche I believe, adopted and raised by the Plains Indians (sorry if that's not PC) who made it very clear how much happier his life was as a hunter/nomad with the tribe than as a farmer in the white village, sitting in school every day and working chores on the farm.
No there is no moral or human value superiority inherent in whites or their culture and this is where I have a big problem with the white supremacists. But neither is it inferior. You can't call the white culture evil just because it was advanced, and did what ALL humans do: go out and conquer.
If the European culture overcame the Native Americans, and brought Africans here as slaves, ultimately progress rewarded its technical superiority by it becoming predominant. But the most success for a member of the conquered races comes when they assimilate. We can't go backwards. We aren't going to undomesticate the horse, or stop manufacturing iron and steel.
Ultimately as moral beings, we realize slavery is wrong, and that "all men are created equal" includes those with other skin tones. Mankind had to learn this after making contact with diverse groups after having evolved separately for tens of thousands of years. Building the ships and finding each other again reunited branches that long ago went their separate ways and needed different characteristics to survive in different environments, which made us look different which signaled we weren't the same "tribe". We are learning to redefine our tribe to be more inclusive.
redtail
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Not exactly true, unless we completely ignore the ancient Egyptians (Africans) who had science, built the pyramids, had writing and printing, metallurgy, weapons and advance militaries. Sailed the seas in ships, figured out complicated mathematical equations, astronomy, etc.
But you already knew that.
.Yes it is true that White people developed some incredible technology and learned how to conquer, no arguing that point. But you weren't the first and you didn't accomplish these great feats in a vacuum. You had help and prior examples from which to build!
We can't go backwards... I hope not, although it looks like many would like to!
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azblackbird
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Not even close. If it wasn't for the native population showing the white man how to survive the harsh and inclement environment that was early America, we probably wouldn't be here on this board right now.
It was well educated and wealthy African Americans who brought in the first actual "slaves". Took the white man a few years to finally catch on to their game and join them.
Cooter
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Rushie, do you think man is the product of Darwinian evolution?
Cooter
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You think the Egyptians were Black? I don't know the genealogy, and I'm willing to be corrected but they didn't look very black to me. We're they descended from Mesopotamia?
Either way I don't think that changes what Rushie was saying. And if there is any significant presence of white supremacy, I don't think it's based on what happened 1000 to 3000 years ago. The white supremacist I see on TV probably couldn't tell you what happened two years ago.
redtail
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Yes the original Egyptians and Arabs were black. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not. (God chooses his prophets and messengers by the purity of their hearts, not the color of their skin.)
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
While we were sitting with the Prophet in the mosque, a man came riding on a camel. He made his camel kneel down in the mosque, tied its foreleg and then said: "Who amongst you is Muhammad?" At that time the Prophet was sitting amongst us (his companions) leaning on his arm. We replied, "This white man reclining on his arm." He then addressed him, "O Son of 'Abdul Muttalib."
Jurairi reported: I said to Abu Tufail: Did you see Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? He said: Yes, he had a white handsome face."
I might as well get it out....
Blacks once ruled the planet while whites were in Europe. The fall from prominence came due to arrogance, pride and rebellion against the Lord of the Worlds. So he took the throne and gave it to "others". The European has only been in power for the past 6000 years. Allah takes the kingdom from whom he pleases and gives it to whom he pleases.
Aal Imran (Family of Imran)
"Say: O Allah, Owner of the Kingdom, Thou givest the kingdom to whom Thou pleasest, and takest away the kingdom from whom Thou pleasest, and Thou exaltest whom Thou pleasest and abasest whom Thou pleasest. In Thine hand is the good. Surely, Thou art Possessor of power over all things. Thou makest the night to pass into the day and Thou makest the day to pass into the night; and Thou bringest forth the living from the dead and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest without measure." (Ch. 3:25,26)
This whole "experiment" has been your test. You (the white race) were given an appointed term to rule all others! Yes it's true.
This is what the Qur'an is talking about when the angels questioned God about his decision to place a ruler in the earth!
Yeah I know, it sounds strange. IT'S REAL.
2:30 "And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler in the earth, they said: Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness. He said: Surely I know what you know not."
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denverpilot
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Have we figured out what to "do" with @spiderweb yet?
Cooter
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It actually sounds like seeds for racism.
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Ravioli
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Knock knock.
Who's there?
Orange.
Orange who?
Orange ya glad WE didn't lock this thread?
Who's there?
Orange.
Orange who?
Orange ya glad WE didn't lock this thread?
Cooter
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Well I am. I'd like to hear more of what Red Tail has to say, personally. I think it's pretty cool that it's gone this far and everyone has behaved, for the most part.
Rushie
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Not exactly true, unless we completely ignore the ancient Egyptians (Africans) who had science, built the pyramids, had writing and printing, metallurgy, weapons and advance militaries. Sailed the seas in ships, figured out complicated mathematical equations, astronomy, etc.
But you already knew that.
Yes it is true that White people developed some incredible technology and learned how to conquer, no arguing that point. But you weren't the first and you didn't accomplish these great feats in a vacuum. You had help and prior examples from which to build!
We can't go backwards... I hope not, although it looks like many would like to!
Well I didn't say so but I include Egypt and North Africa in the category of "white European" in this context. They are completely different stock from sub-Saharan Africans. Genetically too more akin to Greeks and Romans.
Also the Chinese had very advanced technology as well as ships. Why didn't they sail to the Americas and conquer? One proposed reason is that their collectivist nature allowed them to hold a single dynasty in power for long periods of time which became complacent and did not feel the need to expand, unlike the multiplicity of warring kingdoms in the very different (geographically) subcontinent of Europe.
Rushie
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Oh yes, stone arrowheads. Correct me if I'm wrong but they were not smelting metal. They did not have the domesticated horse. Or the wheel. That's not to say they weren't excellent at living in their environment. They were superb. To say you're in the Stone Age is not meant to be a slur.
I think you are right.
redtail
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Kinda wish that you hadn't gone there. Brings back bad memories of a guy name Geico.It actually sounds like seeds for racism. Are you a Black Supremecist?
I have no malice in my heart towards anyone. I'm just a servant of The Lord.
I've said enough, so I'll leave it there. Jesus (pbuh) said it best in John16
16:11 "..and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world already stands condemned. I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it."
Cooter
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I deleted that part, I apologize if it was out of line.
I didn't mean it to be antagonistic, it was meant be lighthearted. But it does sound familiar to something I've heard before.
Either way, I would like to know by what means your beliefs teach that racial reconciliation will occur. I think you said before that it will happen in a future world what about now? What does it look like? Also, you're quoting from the Qur'an and the Bible. Can you share about how those two sources of scripture meld, and if one takes precedence over another? You can PM me if you like, I'm genuinely curious.
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Rushie
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Rushie
That depends on what you mean by Darwinian evolution. If you think it means we "used to be" apes, then no. If you understand the progression of primate species through many versions with many false starts, dead ends, families breaking off, then rejoining, and ultimately resulting in the triumph of Homo Sapiens Sapiens in parallel with the modern great apes with whom we share a common ancestor, then yes, I have no reason to doubt paleoanthropology as a science.
I see absolutely no contradiction between evolution and God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply. In fact it seems like an excellent way to do it. But Darwin talked about a certain kind of survival of the fittest and I think it's actually been found to be a bit more complex than that. So rather than "Darwinian" evolution I prefer to think of man as being the product of an amazing array of influences in the physical world on the genetic molecular level driven by an energy we cannot begin to grasp that can only be thought of as "miraculous" (to me).... because we can't identify it or pin it down. If it's not God, what is?
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
No smelting metal, yes on domesticated horses, no wheel. They used blankets or hide between skid poles harnessed to a horse. The Indians basically taught the early white man how to hunt, grow crops, and survive the harsh winters. The white men were totally lost when they first arrived and only had meager provisions. They were very lucky to have survived that first year. Now look at us.
Cooter
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Cooter
Thanks for the answer. Do you think cultures are the product of evolutionary processes?
Being the father of a Downs daughter, I too find the term offensive. But so what? I do not have any "right" to live my life without being offended, and no one is under any obligation to refrain from offending me.
Rudeness can be seen for what it is, and doesn't have to be elevated to a fighting offense.
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