What must I carry?

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AirCoe

Filing Flight Plan
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Chuckup
I'm new to this (or any) forum, so don't know what to expect or if I'm doing this right. I'm also a fairly new private VFR pilot.

Can someone please tell me where I can find the list of documents required in my flight bag? (If this works, I have more questions.)
 
All that is REQUIRED is:

Pilot:

Pilot's Certificate
Medical Card
Photo ID.

Plane:
Airworthiness Certificate
Registration
POH
Weight and Balance info
 
I'll break this down to pilot and aircraft...

Pilot:
Pilot certificate
Medical certificate

Aircraft:
Airworthiness certificate
Aircraft registration
Flight manual or operating handbook
Weight and balance data
 
Both responses have errors.

The POH is not required. The approved flight manual (if it exists) and/or operating limitations are. The difference may sound semantic, but you'll save yourself some trouble flying pre-1977 aircraft that don't have POHs if you understand the difference.

NO handbook at all is required for a 1976 172M. It's real nice if it's there, but the real requirement is that all the placards and markings be in place. Note this means that if some schmuck installs a Cherokee tach in a 172M by mistake (and I've seen this happen -- at least we suspect it came from a Cherokee), it's not airworthy. The green arc is wrong.

You also need a government issued photo ID.

The W&B is not called out directly in the regs, but it's kinda hard to do the required preflight work without it.

International flight also requires a radio station license.
 
What the first two said.

Third was not picking and causing more confusion.

My old 46' taildragger has a manual, even if it isn't needed you're a idiot for not having it.
 
Welcome to the forum,most of the answers will be of benefit to you. ,untill the supposed experts check in.
 
AirCoe said:
I'm new to this (or any) forum, so don't know what to expect or if I'm doing this right. I'm also a fairly new private VFR pilot.

Can someone please tell me where I can find the list of documents required in my flight bag? (If this works, I have more questions.)
Click to expand...

First post.....

Welcome to POA...

:cheers::cheers::cheers:
 
If you want to know where the list is, you'll have to dig through a lot of the FAR's, but you can start with 14 CFR 61.3 for the pilot, and 14 CFR 91.9 and 91.203 for the aircraft.
 
Welcome To POA...

:happydance::happydance::happydance:

Most barks here are worst then the bites:yes: The answers to your questions are listed above, and once again WELCOME!!!
 
James331 said:
What the first two said.

Third was not picking and causing more confusion.

My old 46' taildragger has a manual, even if it isn't needed you're a idiot for not having it.
Click to expand...

That may be true, but what do you do if you go to rent a 40 year old 172 -- and that's not at all unusual -- that's missing the owners manual?

Do you cancel the flight or do you use the "information manual" in your flight bag?

How does the answer differ for a 172P? What if there is a "POH" in there, but it doesn't have the tail number on it?

The question was, "what is required?" Not "what is sensible?" There is a difference. You can legally fly a 172M without an approved flight manual with the tail number on it, as long as all the placards are in place. You would be rather stupid not to have an unapproved manual of some sort to do that. You can't do the exact same thing with a 172P only a few years newer, and an owners manual or information manual or something copied off the Internet cannot legally substitute.

Your '46 would have had an owners manual. Not a POH. Look in a newer aircraft to see the difference. It's not small.
 
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James331 said:
What the first two said.

Third was not picking and causing more confusion.

My old 46' taildragger has a manual, even if it isn't needed you're a idiot for not having it.
Click to expand...
what would this forum be if not for nit picking.
 
MAKG1 said:
That may be true, but what do you do if you go to rent a 40 year old 172 -- and that's not at all unusual -- that's missing the owners manual?

Do you cancel the flight or do you use the "information manual" in your flight bag?

How does the answer differ for a 172P? What if there is a "POH" in there, but it doesn't have the tail number on it?

The question was, "what is required?" Not "what is sensible?" There is a difference. You can legally fly a 172M without an approved flight manual with the tail number on it, as long as all the placards are in place. You would be rather stupid not to have an unapproved manual of some sort to do that. You can't do the exact same thing with a 172P only a few years newer, and an owners manual or information manual or something copied off the Internet cannot legally substitute.

Your '46 would have had an owners manual. Not a POH. Look in a newer aircraft to see the difference. It's not small.
Click to expand...

No I wouldn't fly it, if the owner can't be bothered to have the proper manuals in the plane I don't want to deal with the aircraft.

It's also legal for a newly minted PPL to take off into G airspace for a 200nm flight with just 1sm viz, however...

As for my 46' re-read my post, I clearly said "manual". Thanks, I do know the difference.

To the OP, like others , as well as myself, said, AROW.

Airworthiness
Operators manual (POH, flight manual, AFM, etc)
Registration
Current Weight and Balance info, reflecting any avionics, engine, prop, etc changes.
 
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James331 said:
To the OP, like other, as well as myself, said, AROW.

Airworthiness
Operators manual (POH, flight manual, AFM, etc)
Registration
Current Weight and Balance info, reflecting any avionics, engine, prop, etc changes.
Click to expand...

The "O" stands for "operating limitations," which can come from an approved flight manual and/or placards, depending on year. It cannot legally come from "etc." or from an information manual, or even from an AFM from another aircraft of the same model and year.

Once again, the question was about requirements, not your personal limitations.

Personally, I inspect my airplanes and don't have a problem with an older legal aircraft that lacks its POH, as long as I have equivalent information elsewhere (and I do have quite a number of information manuals collected). Information manuals sometimes "walk" at a busy FBO.

See 14 CFR 91.9(b)(2).

I wouldn't bring this up if it hadn't been a frequent issue. Just yesterday, I flew a 1975 182P that had a photocopied owner's manual in it. Not an AFM.
 
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mkosmo said:
Is it just me, or have there been several posts just this past week about this very subject?
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I don't know. I don't mean it was a frequent issue on the board (maybe it is?), but that I've often found older aircraft for rent without a manual or with an unapproved one.

Replacement AFMs are bloody expensive, and I don't fault an owner for just downloading equivalent copies off the Internet, where that's legal.

Another issue is that they fall apart after 40 years….
 
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MAKG1 said:
I don't know. I don't mean it was a frequent issue on the board, but that I've often found older aircraft for rent without a manual or with an unapproved one.

Replacement AFMs are bloody expensive, and I don't fault an owner for just downloading equivalent copies off the Internet.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it's just be, but I am to recall reading a few other threads here on the matter. But regardless, I know that feeling. It's like $80 for a damn copy of a 1976 C172M manual. I leave the original copy in mine just because I may as well, but I'd rather keep it with the rest of the file on the aircraft and a new one in there. I should just photocopy the performance data I want to keep on-board, though.
 
Thank gawd ya'll are just typin'....cuz if we were actually in a room, there wouldnt be enough O2 to breathe.
 
I'll just add FWIW that the only time I've ever been asked for any of these things was by a CFI verifying my plane was airworthy before flying in it and the examiner when I did my private check ride.

You could always get ramp checked... which seems to be about a once in a lifetime event for most. Even then from what most people say if you're missing something as long as you can send a copy of it in later they don't get too fussy about it.

That said, I just keep all the aircraft related stuff in the aircraft all the time, my certificate is in my wallet, and my medical is taped in my logbook which I also always carry so in practice I don't worry about this stuff much if at all.
 
MAKG1 said:
I don't know. I don't mean it was a frequent issue on the board (maybe it is?), but that I've often found older aircraft for rent without a manual or with an unapproved one.
Click to expand...

We've been over this many times. Many aircraft don't have an "approved" flight manual. That's a modern invention comparatively. My old Navion and older Cessna's have an "Owner's Manual" which is NOT required to be in the plane (though it's historically quaint).

What you need for the aircraft is:

Registration.
Airworthiness Certificate.
and whatever the TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET and all the subsequent STC's say you need to carry.

In my case it is:

The limitations book.
An Equipment List.
The supplements to the non-existent flight manual for: the palo alto tail mod, the tip tanks, the auto pilot, the IFR GPS, the engine monitor, the MX20, etc...
Further by derivation, several of those supplments require the pilot guide for the respective unit to be in the plane.

Everything is in a binder in the back of the aircraft that hasn't seen the light of day since my last checkride
 
I never carried anything in all eight aircraft except my medical and license , both in my wallet, always. Everything else at home including log books in safe place, ( often times didn't even enter flying time as years went by.) never ramp checked in fourty five years.
 
I know "AROW" and all, but where's the regulation that says the weight and balance info has to be in the airplane?
 
I know this related question must've been asked before but...

Can I just scan the required POH (and especially the boat anchor of supplements) and have them available on my tablet? Do photocopies count? Because I'd rather print up the scans, but reduced (two pages a side, 4 pages per sheet) and leave those in the back unread rather than my expensive to replace originals.
 
If the AFM is required, photocopies are debatable at best.

If the AFM is not required, you can do whatever the hell you want.
 
AirCoe said:
I'm new to this (or any) forum, so don't know what to expect or if I'm doing this right. I'm also a fairly new private VFR pilot.

Can someone please tell me where I can find the list of documents required in my flight bag? (If this works, I have more questions.)
Click to expand...


If I'm reading this correct you are a PPL holder? Which than leads to the more important question of how you made it through the Written, Oral, and checkride without knowing this.
 
You only need one piece of paper, this has worked for me for decades now. Forget the rest of it.




A Ben Franklin, to bribe the ramp police with!





Kidding of course. But the thread direction cries out for levity.
 
MotoFlier said:
If I'm reading this correct you are a PPL holder? Which than leads to the more important question of how you made it through the Written, Oral, and checkride without knowing this.
Click to expand...

I was kinda thinking that for a new pilot that information should be pretty fresh in your mind.

Flying the planes in my club I've found a lot of them have a very worn out falling apart mess of a POH/AFM/Whatever. Some of them have literally been a bunch of tattered pieces of paper in a ziploc bag. For this reason I have the old original manual for my Mooney safely wrapped in a heavy duty plastic wrapper then inserted into a pocket of the binder where I keep all my paperwork for the plane. I then have an identical but not official newer copy of the same book in another pocket of that binder for actual reference use. The original is kept in case the ramp police want to see it, otherwise it will never be touched or opened.
 
MAKG1 said:
The "O" stands for "operating limitations," which can come from an approved flight manual and/or placards, depending on year.
Click to expand...

Operating limitations...that I what I was blanking on when I typed POH knowing that an actual POH was not required for all years.
 
MotoFlier said:
If I'm reading this correct you are a PPL holder? Which than leads to the more important question of how you made it through the Written, Oral, and checkride without knowing this.
Click to expand...

I'm actually surprised, sort of, that it took until page 2 for that to come up.

I do fully expect another 5-10 pages of semantics though! Don't let me down!! :lol::D

Also, welcome OP. You can gain a lot of useful advice in these forums. Don't be shy to ask!
 
woodchucker said:
I'm actually surprised, sort of, that it took until page 2 for that to come up.
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I had that though as well but knowing the regs and UNDERSTANDING the regs are two different things as it applies to real world flying. That comes from experience and deciphering which advise on POA is correct and which is not!

Take the upteenth gazillion threads on Flight Following as an example!
 
MotoFlier said:
If I'm reading this correct you are a PPL holder? Which than leads to the more important question of how you made it through the Written, Oral, and checkride without knowing this.
Click to expand...

And what of the "experienced" posters who don't know the answer? One of my favorite things about this forum is the certainty with which some posters can be wrong. It's just like hanging out at the airport. :rofl:
 
MAKG1 said:
I wouldn't bring this up if it hadn't been a frequent issue. Just yesterday, I flew a 1975 182P that had a photocopied owner's manual in it. Not an AFM.
Click to expand...


So you're admitting you broke the law and no one died. Hang on a sec while I stifle a yawn.

We have a photocopied one and the real one on board AND the STC supplement which was photocopied by Robinson as their method of distribution back in the 70s. I'm amazed it wasn't mimeographed.

The reason for both is that the "legal" book is so frazzled that it's inside a ziplock Baggie, not to be removed. It's just dead legal weight on board and it'd be in pieces all over the floor if you removed it from its nice little display Baggie. The photocopy is legible and usable.

Haven't had any legal beagles complain yet, including a DPE. He actually got a chuckle out of it when I showed it to him. The Baggie also makes a nice consistent place to keep the official W&B which is also photocopied for actual use.

And all of the above are scanned and in my phone, and my iPad, and my laptop...

"Here's the AROW Baggie. There's even an extra R in there that's expired and not needed for this flight since we won't be traversing any International borders that have treaties with our FCC." :)
 
MAKG1 said:
No one broke the law. An AFM is not required for that year and model. All the required placards were present.
Click to expand...


You claimed it made your point of the need for this oh-so-important information to be disseminated. I assumed you meant that the rental place didn't have the correct crap on board. Many don't. Haven't seen any Skyhawks falling from the sky because of it.

I'm sure if someone hit the wrong inspector on a cranky day, there might be some extra paperwork to say the paperwork wasn't in order. Ironic, isn't it?

Anyway. The beat up "Baggie O' Crap Required By Law" always flies on our aircraft. Once in a while I open it and make sure everything is still in there. Usually out of boredom when puttering in the hangar when it's time to clean a year's worth of crud out of the bottom of the map pocket.

One year, after something like almost twenty years of annuals of this same aircraft all the way back to a previous owner, the mechanic decided a placard was missing. He made one with a P-Touch label and it's lasted like five years or something like that. I guess all 15 years prior, the aircraft was in a terribly unsafe condition and he should never have signed that book. LOL. :)
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I know "AROW" and all, but where's the regulation that says the weight and balance info has to be in the airplane?
Click to expand...
There isn't any. ARROW was always a dumbass mnemonic (I really think someone came up with the word first and tried to fit the rules into it).

Most later aircraft have the w&b as part of the AFM. In my case the general envelope info is in the limitations book that's mandatory and while it doesn't state it anywhere specific the empty weight and arm are on my required "equipment list."
 
Welcome, Chuckup. You'll notice it doesn't take a lot to start an argument here :).
 
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