What does it really cost to build a plane?

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drotto

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drotto
I am looking for some real numbers here, hard materials costs, and labor. Strip away the regulations, lawyers fees, liability, etc. I can buy a nice car for 25 to 35k. I can buy a great top end car for 80 to 100k. Yes, I am leaving out the supercars. What does your run of the mill 172, 182, Archer, or even sr22, cost to actually produce?
 
the problem with your analysis.....is that most parts for an airplane are regulated and produced in the US, then assembled in the US.

Auto parts are for the most part, are not regulated and produced in "low cost" manufacturing areas (outside the US).....then "assembled" in the US.

The economies of scale also don't work out for aviation. Auto are produced at 300,000 to 500,000 copies per year per model.

Aircraft, all brands and models, maybe 2,000 units a year.
 
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Take that into considetation. I realize there is alot more hand work in a plane as opposed to cars, and demand is lower, which raises costs. That is why I mentioned cars and high end cars. I expect planes to cost more in line with a high end car plus some, but how much more? What are the real costs for Piper, Cessna, etc for production.
 
maybe look at a comparison with hand, or custom built low volume cars and aircraft as a comparison.
 
I'd think you'd have to compare to something closer to Ferrari/Lamborghini as opposed to Mercedes/BMW
 
Not sure what you're trying to get at.

Cost of production is at best a highly indirect predictor of retail cost. It only really matters if the margins are low or negative, and even then, it can still be decoupled due to time lags or external factors.
 
One could get an idea from the cost of an airplane kit, since that simply reflects the cost of the materials and some manufacturing without the labor or legal overhead. A Van's RV10 is comparable to a number of 4 seat aircraft. The RV10 is on the order of 60 AMUs, I believe (that is minus the power plant).
 
Selling a 100ish Cessna 172 per year? That seems pathetic.

I've always felt that there are too many manufacturers supporting a shrinking market. The other problem is a huge wide range of aged aircraft that still have many years of life left.


Heck, maybe part of the charm of GA really is old aircraft themselves and not so much with new wiz bang slick ones.
 
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steingar said:
One could get an idea from the cost of an airplane kit, since that simply reflects the cost of the materials and some manufacturing without the labor or legal overhead. A Van's RV10 is comparable to a number of 4 seat aircraft. The RV10 is on the order of 60 AMUs, I believe (that is minus the power plant).
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I think you could look at the completed costs of these kits and get some info too, it'd cost me 80-100k to build a -14 the way I'd want, without labor.
 
steingar said:
One could get an idea from the cost of an airplane kit, since that simply reflects the cost of the materials and some manufacturing without the labor or legal overhead. A Van's RV10 is comparable to a number of 4 seat aircraft. The RV10 is on the order of 60 AMUs, I believe (that is minus the power plant).
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Yup....that'd be a good comparison.

Here's my take on that cost w/all new parts.....

kit..................................$60K
engine (I0-540 new).......$35K
prop...............................$ 5K
glass panel w/autopilot...$50K
paint...............................$ 8K
interior kit (leather).........$ 8K

total new materials less labor.....$166K

having said that....given the performance of an RV-10, this is more a comparison of a C-182 than a C-172.
 
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drotto said:
What does your run of the mill 172, 182, Archer, or even sr22, cost to actually produce?
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That's quite a large variation in machines.

On the low end, according to Wikipedia the "4 seat" Cessna 172R has a useful load of 759 lbs, cruise speed of 140 mph, and stall speed of 54 mph at a cost of $274,900 (2012).

But a "2 seat" Savannah S has a useful load of 700 lbs, cruise speed of 111 mph, and a stall speed of 30 mph at a cost of $71,950 RTF. (Or ~$55,000 + ~110 hours assembly.)

A SWAG would be that cost to produce a C-172 could be done somewhere in the range of $65k, give or take $10k. I'm not sure what is different about the C-172 from a Savannah S to account for the nearly 4 times larger price. It'd take a humongous pile of avionics to add up to all that.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Yup....that'd be a good comparison.

Here's my take on that cost w/all new parts.....

kit..................................$60K
engine (I0-540 new).......$35K
prop...............................$ 5K
glass panel w/autopilot...$50K
paint...............................$ 8K
interior kit (leather).........$ 8K

total new materials less labor.....$166K

having said that....given the performance of an RV-10, this is more a comparison of a C-182 than a C-172.
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Add $20k more to your firewall forward estimate. New engines are $45k, the prop is 7 or $8k, and you still need to buy an exhaust, baffles, hoses, oil cooler, cables, etc.
 
Yeah but what's the profit margin of the van's kits? That price is surely not charity pricing.
 
Jim Logajan said:
That's quite a large variation in machines.

On the low end, according to Wikipedia the "4 seat" Cessna 172R has a useful load of 759 lbs, cruise speed of 140 mph, and stall speed of 54 mph at a cost of $274,900 (2012).

But a "2 seat" Savannah S has a useful load of 700 lbs, cruise speed of 111 mph, and a stall speed of 30 mph at a cost of $71,950 RTF. (Or ~$55,000 + ~110 hours assembly.)

A SWAG would be that cost to produce a C-172 could be done somewhere in the range of $65k, give or take $10k. I'm not sure what is different about the C-172 from a Savannah S to account for the nearly 4 times larger price. It'd take a humongous pile of avionics to add up to all that.
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At $65K I think you're hitting the nail on the head..
 
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you see how those new Cessnas are equipped? $65K for material cost for a new C-172?....never.
 
drotto said:
I am looking for some real numbers here, hard materials costs, and labor. Strip away the regulations, lawyers fees, liability, etc. I can buy a nice car for 25 to 35k. I can buy a great top end car for 80 to 100k. Yes, I am leaving out the supercars. What does your run of the mill 172, 182, Archer, or even sr22, cost to actually produce?
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just curious, why you seem to be linking a product's production cost to sale price? In your mind, should they be related in some manner ?
 
drotto said:
I am looking for some real numbers here, hard materials costs, and labor. Strip away the regulations, lawyers fees, liability, etc. I can buy a nice car for 25 to 35k. I can buy a great top end car for 80 to 100k. Yes, I am leaving out the supercars. What does your run of the mill 172, 182, Archer, or even sr22, cost to actually produce?
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Well, how much capability do you want? Most guys who build a Lancair IVP have $330k in them +/- $30k. An RV-4 typical reports I hear are $35-45k. Figure 3000hrs skilled labor for the first and 1200 for the latter.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Yup....that'd be a good comparison.

Here's my take on that cost w/all new parts.....

kit..................................$60K
engine (I0-540 new).......$35K
prop...............................$ 5K
glass panel w/autopilot...$50K
paint...............................$ 8K
interior kit (leather).........$ 8K

total new materials less labor.....$166K

having said that....given the performance of an RV-10, this is more a comparison of a C-182 than a C-172.
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Jesus, $50k for an experimental panel? What are you trying to put in there? Dual Garmin glass is well under $20k.
 
Direct C51 said:
Jesus, $50k for an experimental panel? What are you trying to put in there? Dual Garmin glass is well under $20k.
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add an autopilot....transponder....com radios....with navs, various wiring harnesses, ELTs, yada, yada.....then tell the class what number you get. :yikes:

take a look inside the new C-172's and tell us what ya see....
 
Direct C51 said:
Jesus, $50k for an experimental panel? What are you trying to put in there? Dual Garmin glass is well under $20k.
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There is a Mutual Assured Destruction pact amongst a lot of experimental builders who are >seemingly< convinced that the objective is to spend as much as they can on aircraft which will spend most of their time in day VFR operations. There are plenty of $50k panels out there, particularly if you pay someone to cut, paint, label, and wire everything. Add those costs to $25k of Garmin Nav/Com's, a transponder, ADS-B, autopilot, and 2-3 glass screens and $50k comes pretty quick.
 
What doesn't cost to build a plane? Simple answer, how much money do you have? Add a little bit more.
 
Hank S said:
What doesn't cost to build a plane? Simple answer, how much money do you have? Add a little bit more.
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Not counting your time, you can build an RV-10 for $100k or you can spend $250k. It all comes down to choices. Paint it in your garage for $2k or hire someone to do it for $12k? 787 panel or J3? New engine or one you source out of one of Wentworth's salvage jobs?

Figure the cost of the parts on a C-172 is $100k + the panel. Figure $50k for the G1000 panel. Then add in 1,000 man hours of labor at a burdened rate of $100/hour, and you're at $250k for that new C-172. Then you have selling expenses, warranty costs, liability, etc. It gets very high, very fast.
 
I've taken a full tour of the Mooney factory in Kerrville, TX on a weekday when the plant is in full production. When you see how every single one and every single piece is made by hand, one at a time, it's actually surprising that you can buy one as it rolls off the line for only $650K.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
take a look inside the new C-172's and tell us what ya see....
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CESSNA 172
 

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Take your high end, custom $100,000 car then add $75,000 worth of avionics and it still don't fly.
 
steingar said:
One could get an idea from the cost of an airplane kit, since that simply reflects the cost of the materials and some manufacturing without the labor or legal overhead. A Van's RV10 is comparable to a number of 4 seat aircraft. The RV10 is on the order of 60 AMUs, I believe (that is minus the power plant).
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That's minus the engine, prop, wiring, panel, paint, and a lot of things.

But the biggest thing that's missing is labor, a lot of it. Labor is probably the single most expensive line item for a company that builds things by hand, and in this case it's skilled labor for the most part, which is even more expensive. It's not hard to train someone how to load parts into a machine and press a button, but most of an airplane isn't built that way. So take that list of numbers from the home built guys that end up well north of $100k and add a couple thousand man hours on to it at a cost of $20? $30? $40? per hour and you end up with a much more expensive aircraft.
 
Mason said:
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CESSNA 172
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What you don't see here is the pile of electronics in racks ahead of the MFD, the standby battery ahead of the PFD, and a thick cable leading to the rack of boxes behind the baggage compartment lower bulkhead cover. There's a lot of stuff in a G1000 system and it adds up to a lot more than $20K, and it's also a lot heavier than the old steam-gauge panel with a radio stack.


Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
What you don't see here is the pile of electronics in racks ahead of the MFD, the standby battery ahead of the PFD, and a thick cable leading to the rack of boxes behind the baggage compartment lower bulkhead cover. There's a lot of stuff in a G1000 system and it adds up to a lot more than $20K, and it's also a lot heavier than the old steam-gauge panel with a radio stack.


Dan
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That would depend on how old and complex the stack. For the same level of capability, old equipment is heavier.
 
There is no way that a 172 should cost more than $120K in labor and materials (not including fancy G1000 panels). If their manufacturing costs are that high, then they have some serious supply chain issues and insane labor unions. It's not like Van's, or any of the newer composite aircraft that have been making alterations to tooling/designs in the first decade of production. The 172 has been produced for half a century, and several decades without any major structural alterations. Your costs go down once the manufacturing process is refined further and you become more efficient. If it takes Cessna 1,000 man-hours to produce a 172, their entire procurement/production management staff need to be terminated. They may not be high-volume, but you can't sell more volume if no one can afford your product.
 
SoonerAviator said:
There is no way that a 172 should cost more than $120K in labor and materials (not including fancy G1000 panels). If their manufacturing costs are that high, then they have some serious supply chain issues and insane labor unions. It's not like Van's, or any of the newer composite aircraft that have been making alterations to tooling/designs in the first decade of production. The 172 has been produced for half a century, and several decades without any major structural alterations. Your costs go down once the manufacturing process is refined further and you become more efficient. If it takes Cessna 1,000 man-hours to produce a 172, their entire procurement/production management staff need to be terminated. They may not be high-volume, but you can't sell more volume if no one can afford your product.
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I would think that $120k is a decent guess at the actual number to build a 172 sans panel, and that makes a $350,000 sales price after adding the G-1000 (figure that's got to cost Cessna $80k minimum) within the mid low end of the margin curve we expect out of business. In comparison, I used to deliver RV trailers and motor coaches from the manufacturer to the dealer and carried the true invoice with the BOL. I'd pull up, hand them the paper work and ask where they wanted it, before it was parked it had a "SALE!" sign with a price that was double the invoice. In the yacht world standard is also keystone profit, however the top end exclusive stuff may be 5x keystone. The rich spend stupid money just to prove to other rich people that they are richer. It's comedy, but it's also redistribution of wealth, so it works out.
 
Agreed, Henning. I just feel like they want to play the high-margin game instead of the high-volume game. I think 66% margin will eventually cause the new aircraft market (at least for trainer/GA) to disappear for all but FBO's/flight schools. The regular joe's will continue to buy 30-40yr old aircraft, and leave the $350K+ purchases to the wealthy.

As the pool of pilots dwindles, the pool of potential buyers also shrinks. If aircraft manufacturers continue to try and ask for more price as opposed to making it up on volume, they'll be making 5-aircraft per year, and trying to extract $800K out of a 172, lol.
 
Electronics are actually cheap to make. There is no way in the world that G1000 costs 20K to make. You can buy a portable AHAR, and an iPad for under $2000, that has nearly the same capabilities as modern avionics. My best bet is it costs Garmin between $1000 to $1500 to make a G1000 (but this is just looking at what general consumer electronics cost). Plus when you consider new avionics, the individual units are heavier, but now you have one unit doing what it used to take 6 or more units to do. Overall a weight savings.

I was talking to a mechanic the other day that works for a shop which has sold totaled planes for scrap metal. He claimed that your average 4 seat GA aircraft contains about 10k to 15k of scrap aluminum.
 
drotto said:
Electronics are actually cheap to make. There is no way in the world that G1000 costs 20K to make. You can buy a portable AHAR, and an iPad for under $2000, that has nearly the same capabilities as modern avionics. My best bet is it costs Garmin between $1000 to $1500 to make a G1000 (but this is just looking at what general consumer electronics cost).
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What are the amortized software development and certification costs embodied in a G1000? I bet that is close to a 5 figure sum.
 
I can show you a $15-20k LSA kit, actually quite a few of them. The 'catches' are:
1) aluminum tube and gusset construction. Some people feel this isn't strong construction, but it is designed to +6/-3. Perhaps not a lot more.
2) VW engine
3) mostly 1 seaters, just a few 2 seaters.
4) if you don't like the VW engine, you can up your cost with a Rotax engine, I think they start at 20k so you'll be minimum $35k total.
5) you're building a WWI biplane replica.
6) it's all experimental of course, but everything you build will be.

Airframe will run you about $8-13k depending on the model
Engine will be around 5k, again depending on the model.
You've got some extra and if you're good, you can keep it under 20.

Build time is advertised at 400 hours, you figure what your time is worth.

Is it a 172? Nope, but it is an airplane.

http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/
 
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kyleb said:
What are the amortized software development and certification costs embodied in a G1000? I bet that is close to a 5 figure sum.
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Would be interesting to see 2 ipads held in slots on the panel. That would make for an interesting and really inexpensive experimental flight control.

Is there a good PFD app? Foreflight or other comparable app on the other?

and of course keep current on the steam gauges, just because it's not hardened equipment.
 
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