What do I do here if...

[genna]

-- in VMC on IFR plan-- the only approach I legaly am equipped for is not available to me?

The other day I did a short IFR flight in mostly VMC and intended to rent a C172/G and fly a RNAV approach to the destination. But the plane was not available, so I took its twin with not updated GPS database and changed my intention to fly a VOR approach instead. Filed as C172/A

Now i did not see the approach being unavailable in NOTAMS at the time of file and really i'm not sure why it would be since VOR it's based on was in operation(and this isn't really my issue), but when I asked ATC for that approach, they came back and said it was not available. I only had 2 GPS approaches to choose from.

I ended up choosing and flying a GPS approach just to simplify my navigation and canceled the IFR plan a little bit after i was established on the final approach course. I figured since i was in VMC, the legality of this should be ok. But i'm not quite sure on this last point.

Also, since this was in DC SFRA, i had to be on some sort of a plan

Any thoughts?

 

[Velocity173]

If your database is expired but you've verified the approach with a current chart, you can still shoot the approach with most GPSs. Did the WX allow for a visual approach?

 

[genna]

If your database is expired but you've verified the approach with a current chart, you can still shoot the approach with most GPSs. Did the WX allow for a visual approach?

Hmm.. I guess that's true. I forgot about that. I did verify it against my ForeFlight plate. WX was VMC and allowed for visual approach once i got close to the airport, but at that point i was flying VFR.

 

[Velocity173]

Hmm.. I guess that's true. I forgot about that. I did verify it against my ForeFlight plate. WX was VMC and allowed for visual approach once i got close to the airport, but at that point i was flying VFR.

Like I said though, it depends on the GPS. The write up in the AFM will specify if you can use it for approaches or if it's only approved for enroute with an expired database. I believe all the Garmin 400W series GPS can be flown with an expired database as long as the plate hasn't been amended since the database expired. I'm sure Ron or John will clarify this.

 

[petrolero]

If you were in VMC, you didn't break any rules. It's no different than flying a practice approach as long as you had eyes out and no foggles.

 

[Direct C51]

If you were in VMC, you didn't break any rules. It's no different than flying a practice approach as long as you had eyes out and no foggles.

Yes there is a difference. A practice approach is done while flying VFR, and you will generally be told to remain VFR, with separation being your responsibility. If your database is wrong, it won't matter because you are eyes out. A real IFR approach, even in VMC, requires the appropriate equipment be installed for that approach, and they expect you to not deviate from it. Although see and avoid still exists in VMC while IFR.

 

[Henning]

-- in VMC on IFR plan-- the only approach I legaly am equipped for is not available to me?

The other day I did a short IFR flight in mostly VMC and intended to rent a C172/G and fly a RNAV approach to the destination. But the plane was not available, so I took its twin with not updated GPS database and changed my intention to fly a VOR approach instead. Filed as C172/A

Now i did not see the approach being unavailable in NOTAMS at the time of file and really i'm not sure why it would be since VOR it's based on was in operation(and this isn't really my issue), but when I asked ATC for that approach, they came back and said it was not available. I only had 2 GPS approaches to choose from.

I ended up choosing and flying a GPS approach just to simplify my navigation and canceled the IFR plan a little bit after i was established on the final approach course. I figured since i was in VMC, the legality of this should be ok. But i'm not quite sure on this last point.

Also, since this was in DC SFRA, i had to be on some sort of a plan

Any thoughts?

If you're in VMC, then it's pretty irrelevant and no one is going to care, actually, I doubt it's illegal. Think about it, the entire DA-20 is VFR only, however you can operate it under IFR for practice, training, and testing, so long as you remain in VMC.

 

[sgenie]

There is nothing legally that precludes you from flying a full IFR RNAV approach with the database expired - as it was stated you just had to verify it against the current plate. So you could legally fly it down t the minimums

 

[Steven8385]

Took my Checkride on Wednesday, you can follow a route with and outdated gps database, if you verify the waypoints. You are not legal to shoot a gps approach with an expired database at all, except the obvious which is an emergency. If you want the exact rule and where to reference I can post it when I get home to look at my notes.

 

[Henning]

Took my Checkride on Wednesday, you can follow a route with and outdated gps database, if you verify the waypoints. You are not legal to shoot a gps approach in IMC with an expired database at all, except the obvious which is an emergency. If you want the exact rule and where to reference I can post it when I get home to look at my notes.

Just a small, but critical, addition. In VMC it's fine.

 

[Steven8385]

Yes practice vfr approaches expired databases are fine. If your on and ifr flight plan doesn't matter VMC or IMC, it's ifr rules.

 

[azure]

Yes practice vfr approaches expired databases are fine. If your on and ifr flight plan doesn't matter VMC or IMC, it's ifr rules.

Please post a reference. I've always understood that it depends on the GPS, and specifically the AFM supplement for the GPS. Many allow you to fly an approach with an expired database as long as the approach hasn't been updated since the database expired.

 

[Henning]

Please post a reference. I've always understood that it depends on the GPS, and specifically the AFM supplement for the GPS. Many allow you to fly an approach with an expired database as long as the approach hasn't been updated since the database expired.

I seem to recall an email from the FAA that had a clarification letter on all this that was permissive for GPS use as long as the information had been verified as still current. Anybody else see that? It wasn't awfully long ago.

 

[PPC1052]

I know this is the DC SFRA, but why can't you do a visual approach? You are on an IFR flight plan. Just don't cancel until you are on the ground. Someone who knows better, please set me straight.

 

[AustinPilot]

If it is a GPS approved for IFR Approaches then you must verify that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database (see AIM Table 1-1-6 in Section 1-1-18 (GPS)).

The safer bet in the scenario presented would probably be just to ask for vectors to a visual approach.

IFR rules are IFR rules regardless of the meteorological conditions.

 

[poadeleted20]

-- in VMC on IFR plan-- the only approach I legaly am equipped for is not available to me?

Either divert or insist.

The other day I did a short IFR flight in mostly VMC and intended to rent a C172/G and fly a RNAV approach to the destination. But the plane was not available, so I took its twin with not updated GPS database and changed my intention to fly a VOR approach instead. Filed as C172/A

You do know that a non-current database doesn't make you no longer /G, right? You can still fly the GPS approach as long as the approach hasn't been revised since the database expired. See AIM Table 1-1-6, Note 2. The way to do this is to look at the amendment date in the lower left corner of the approach chart -- and that's the amendment date in the lower left corner, not the edition date on the side of the chart. If that date is earlier than the expiration date of the database (displayed on GPS boot-up), you're good to fly that approach even though the database is past its expiration date.

Now i did not see the approach being unavailable in NOTAMS at the time of file and really i'm not sure why it would be since VOR it's based on was in operation(and this isn't really my issue), but when I asked ATC for that approach, they came back and said it was not available.

Did you ask why not? Did you check the FDC NOTAMs after flight to see if there was a problem with that VOR approach? Or perhaps it was just ATC's convenience driving the "not available" status?

I only had 2 GPS approaches to choose from.

I ended up choosing and flying a GPS approach just to simplify my navigation and canceled the IFR plan a little bit after i was established on the final approach course. I figured since i was in VMC, the legality of this should be ok. But i'm not quite sure on this last point.

Assuming the last change to the approach was before the database expiration date, you were completely legal to fly that GPS approach under IFR in IMC.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're in VMC, then it's pretty irrelevant and no one is going to care, actually, I doubt it's illegal.

The fact that you're in VMC changes nothing about the rules regarding the use of an expired database to fly a GPS-required approach. All that matters is whether you're operating under IFR or not. Beyond that, it's what I said above.

Think about it, the entire DA-20 is VFR only, however you can operate it under IFR for practice, training, and testing, so long as you remain in VMC.

Not entirely true. You can operate it under IFR in VMC for instrument rating (pilot or instructor) training and testing, but not for practice or training/testing other than for an instrument rating. And there are other requirements, too, starting with having all the 91.205(d)-required instruments and equipment, and all the other certifications for IFR operation (like the 91.411 altimeter/static system and 91.413 transponder tests). But that still doesn't change the rules regarding GPS databases if you're flying GPS under IFR in your DA20 -- being in VMC does not relieve you of those rules.

 

[poadeleted20]

Took my Checkride on Wednesday, you can follow a route with and outdated gps database, if you verify the waypoints. You are not legal to shoot a gps approach with an expired database at all, except the obvious which is an emergency. If you want the exact rule and where to reference I can post it when I get home to look at my notes.

Again, the FAA rule is otherwise. Unless the AFM says otherwise (and some do), you can fly a GPS approach with an expired database as long as the last amendment to the approach was before the database expired. That said, you cannot bring an expired database to a practical test even if it would otherwise be legal to use it under IFR -- that's in the PTS, not the regulations or your AFM.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just a small, but critical, addition. In VMC it's fine.

Not true. Whether it's VMC or IMC means nothing on this issue, only whether you're IFR or VFR.

 

[poadeleted20]

I seem to recall an email from the FAA that had a clarification letter on all this that was permissive for GPS use as long as the information had been verified as still current. Anybody else see that? It wasn't awfully long ago.

It's in the AIM -- Table 1-1-6, Note 2, and it's been there for a few years.

 

[Steven8385]

The info is ac 90-100ch2 section 10 sub section a part 3 "3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. "

 

[poadeleted20]

I know this is the DC SFRA, but why can't you do a visual approach? You are on an IFR flight plan. Just don't cancel until you are on the ground. Someone who knows better, please set me straight.

You are correct -- and you can even cancel IFR and continue VFR once inside the SFRA, although you must remain on your assigned 4-digit transponder code until touchdown.

 

[poadeleted20]

The info is ac 90-100ch2 section 10 sub section a part 3 "3) The onboard navigation data must be current and appropriate for the region of intended operation and must include the navigation aids, waypoints, and relevant coded terminal airspace procedures for the departure, arrival, and alternate airfields. "

And if the chart procedure hasn't changed since the database expiration date, the data for that approach are in fact still "current and appropriate".

 

[genna]

Either divert or insist.
You do know that a non-current database doesn't make you no longer /G, right? You can still fly the GPS approach as long as the approach hasn't been revised since the database expired. See AIM Table 1-1-6, Note 2. The way to do this is to look at the amendment date in the lower left corner of the approach chart -- and that's the amendment date in the lower left corner, not the edition date on the side of the chart. If that date is earlier than the expiration date of the database (displayed on GPS boot-up), you're good to fly that approach even though the database is past its expiration date.

Well, there was another problem.. the GPS(KLN94) was intermitent INOP(though it was working at the time), hence I filed /A so that ATC don't give me GPS approaches and directions. I guess that didn't work. To be honest, i was rather surprised that ATC offered and accepted GPS approach selection. I guess they did not look at my plan filing.

Did you ask why not? Did you check the FDC NOTAMs after flight to see if there was a problem with that VOR approach? Or perhaps it was just ATC's convenience driving the "not available" status?

Slipped my mind completely. I should have. I think what the controller said was that the destination was reporting VOR Approach unavailable...

This was my first IFR plan flight ..

Assuming the last change to the approach was before the database expiration date, you were completely legal to fly that GPS approach under IFR in IMC.

 

[genna]

I know this is the DC SFRA, but why can't you do a visual approach? You are on an IFR flight plan. Just don't cancel until you are on the ground. Someone who knows better, please set me straight.

I could have. But the idea of the flight was to do my first IFR Solo. SFRA was sort of an excuse for that.

I could have also filed DC SFRA VFR Plan as well and not worry about any of this

 

[sgenie]

Ah, I stand corrected - enroute and terminal ops only with expired DB

 

[flyingron]

I could have. But the idea of the flight was to do my first IFR Solo. SFRA was sort of an excuse for that.

I could have also filed DC SFRA VFR Plan as well and not worry about any of this

While the Other Ron has discussed to death the legality of flying the GPS approach, if it's VMC and you can get a visual approach there's nothing wrong with it. Hell, I fly IFR legally ALL THE FREAKING TIME to airports where my only option is to fly a visual approach (of course I have to file an alternate).

 

[genna]

While the Other Ron has discussed to death the legality of flying the GPS approach, if it's VMC and you can get a visual approach there's nothing wrong with it. Hell, I fly IFR legally ALL THE FREAKING TIME to airports where my only option is to fly a visual approach (of course I have to file an alternate).

Isn't visual approach is where i have to have the airport in sight?

 

[azure]

Ah, I stand corrected - enroute and terminal ops only with expired DB

Either you give up too easily or you didn't read the rest of the thread...

 

[azure]

Isn't visual approach is where i have to have the airport in sight?

Yes. Typically they will ask you to report the field in sight, and then clear you for the visual when you do.

Though technically I believe you do not NEED to have the field in sight, you can be following and in visual contact with another aircraft. But in most cases, that is how it works.

 

[genna]

I had neither contact with another aircraft nor the field in sight... in fact i had no visual idea where the field was. This is why i chose to fly the approach to simplify navigation. I would have had to request vectors if not flying approach until visual and, honestly, i only saw the airport(this was a circle approach - at about 90 degrees) about 3 miles out.

 

[azure]

I had neither contact with another aircraft nor the field in sight... in fact i had no visual idea where the field was. This is why i chose to fly the approach to simplify navigation. I would have had to request vectors if not flying approach until visual and, honestly, i only saw the airport(this was a circle approach - at about 90 degrees) about 3 miles out.

That's not uncommon here in VT when flying to mountain valley locations. I assume MD is similar. Nothing wrong with flying an instrument approach in visual conditions if you have the equipment to legally fly it. It also helps to keep you sharp on the procedures and buttonology, which is a huge part of the mental workload involved in flying IFR.

As far as the controller clearing you for an RNAV/GPS approach when you filed /A - most of the time they don't pay attention to your equipment suffix, and it's only going to get worse with all the complicated ICAO stuff. Even 10 years ago it was common for ATC to give direct-to-airport clearances to /A or even /U aircraft. You're supposed to know what clearances you can legally accept. In your case, since you actually had the equipment I think you were legal as long as it wasn't actually INOP - but given what you said, I would have refused if conditions were really IFR since I wouldn't trust a flaky GPS in actual.

 

[poadeleted20]

Well, there was another problem.. the GPS(KLN94) was intermitent INOP(though it was working at the time),

If I had an intermittent GPS, I would not be flying a GPS approach -- I wouldn't want it to quit halfway through.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ah, I stand corrected - enroute and terminal ops only with expired DB

What you just wrote isn't correct on any basis. You need to read the previously cited sections of the AIM again, and then see if your GPS's AFMS is more restrictive, but I know of no situation where the database being expired absolutely prohibits approaches but always allows enroute/terminal operation.

 

[Kritchlow]

If the weather is reasonably good there is a way around the problem. I used to fly an airplane where the AFM prohibited approaches with an expired database. The weather at destination was above the MVA, so I asked ATC for his lowest altitude and a clearance to X, then Y, then Z. Those were the waypoints on the approach course. So, in short, I was able to fly the approach (minus some altitude step downs) without ever having to be cleared for the approach.

 

[Henning]

I had neither contact with another aircraft nor the field in sight... in fact i had no visual idea where the field was. This is why i chose to fly the approach to simplify navigation. I would have had to request vectors if not flying approach until visual and, honestly, i only saw the airport(this was a circle approach - at about 90 degrees) about 3 miles out.

You can fly the approach for navigation even if you cancel IFR.