Doc Holliday
En-Route
Almost non existent now.
What are Your Thoughts About the DPE System?
- Thread starter MBDiagMan
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Almost non existent now.
Kenny Phillips
Final Approach
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Kenny Phillips
When I took mine, the DPE took personal checks. I paid in cash, which was rare, and his eyes lit up! Inflation adjusted, I paid $289 for my private [2021 dollars]. Today it would be at least twice that. At least I got to do a spin (my DPE's specialty, FAA be darned.)
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Most FSDOs don’t have the manpower.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
They don’t have the manpower? So what are they using our fuel tax and other tax money for?
Doc Holliday
En-Route
You do realize the FAA is made up of several divisions, right? ATC, Aircraft Certification, Aircraft Records, Airman Records, CAMI, the people who maintain the electronics and Nav Aids, Airports Division and several more. Flight Standards is the part that oversees airman certification, and is fairly small (5000 or so employees) Out of that 5,000, less than half are Inspectors, and not all of those inspectors are pilots (airworthiness, avionics, cabin safety, dispatch) Scatter the remaining Operations Inspectors (pilots) around the country, and they have certificate oversight (Part 135, 121,125, 133, 137, etc) plus hotline complaints, on demand pilot certificate jobs (name change, renewals, SOE removals, etc, etc) accident duty, investigations of pilot deviations and a whole host of other smaller task, and giving Part 61 pilot certification becomes very minute, if at even possible.
Congress approves and passes the budget. Hiring more Inspectors hasn't been a priority for them.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Okay, good summary, but my question remains. If they aren’t going to deliver, give us our money back. I not only pay a pretty good amount of Federal tax, but I buy a good bit of their highly taxed avgas.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Give your money back for what?
The larger part of the FAA budget goes to ATC, airports and NavAids procurement and maintenance. Flight Standards in itself is a very small portion of the budget.
Example. Remember putting pictures on pilot certificates? This was mandated by Congress. FAA agreed and in the budget cycle, requested the funding for the photo certificates. Congress denied the funding. And to this day, Congress still denies the funding.
Congress allocates those funds from your taxes, not the FAA. As always, contact your representative.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'd make a snarky comment, but I don't want to get the thread locked.
I wonder if this is a regional thing. I’ve only had two check-rides in my life but both times I was able to get scheduled in within a week. Weather was a bigger factor as always.
pfarber
Line Up and Wait
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pfarber
A full time DPE charges at least $400. I paid $600 in the NE and that was for 4 hours and I still had to rent the plane.
No DPE that wants the work is going hungry .
The FAA should limit fees and time. If you can't get a check ride done in 4 hours for a PPL then fail them and move on
pfarber
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pfarber
So collect your fee and reschedule. Also the FAA should immediately be talking to those CFIs who allowed a failure at step 1.
Feeding bad students into the DPE schedule doesn't change the price a DPE charges nor remedies the lack of open testing slots. A CFI signed off the student and a check ride was scheduled. Things seem to be working normally
RussR
En-Route
No doubt. There is a local DPE who is full-time and is continually busy. He does 2-3 check rides as far as I can determine almost every day. So, even accounting for weather and cancellations, I bet he easily averages 10+ per week. At his $600 a pop, that's around $300k a year.
Limiting the fees I can't necessarily agree with, sounds too much like "rent control". And I don't necessarily agree with the time limit either, just because there are lots of factors that could go into it. But I do agree that there should be some time "guidelines". We've all heard of 8 hour PP checkrides, and also 2 hour PP checkrides.
I agree (but it's not a "failure", it's a "discontinuance"). I imagine there's not much worse for a DPE than to have a checkride block wasted because in the first few minutes you determine the applicant doesn't have enough XC hours, or the plane doesn't have a current transponder check, or any other easily-found thing that should have been resolved well before the checkride.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
It's not even a discontinuance. The test had not even started. There's nothing to discontinue. All it did was waste a slot on a good weather day that someone else who was qualified could've used. I tend to gently remind schools of this sometimes when they mention how backed up the schedule is.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
So you’re bitching about paying 1/4 to 1/3 of the daily rate for flying for a half-day checkride?
RussR
En-Route
You're right, it never even counted as anything.
ja_user
Pattern Altitude
The FAA shouldn't be involved in pricing at all. And I would argue shouldn't be limiting the supply of DPE's either, which they currently do.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
It's not about limiting the number of DPE's. There are actually the number of DPE's required in each district due to demand. What happens is the public only wants to use a small portion of those DPE's, which begins the bottleneck. Even if more were added, people are still going to go to the favorites, and still have scheduling issues.
The only way to eliminate this in my opinion is to put the applicants in a pool and assign them a DPE to spread the task equally and lower wait time. However one could just imagine the discontent this would create.
I have to admit I didn't even think about a choice of DPE for my private. The instructor said to schedule it with the local one and I did. Made sense that I did my instrument with him too. My point being, I suspect the average PPL student just calls whomever his instructor recommends. If they are essentially unmanaged today, how do we know the number is adequate? After all, I'm sure most have schedule demands too and are not just DPE's. Well, maybe they are. I'll admit ignorance.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, the average student calls whoever his instructor recommends. And instructors have favorites. And thus the bottleneck.
How do you know the number is adequate? Call every DPE in your area to find an opening, not just your instructor’s favorite. As noted earlier for one specific area,
ja_user
Pattern Altitude
I'd just point out, that just because a DPE barely makes his yearly requirement. Doesn't really mean that he is available. Many of our local DPE's have day jobs.
RussR
En-Route
It's not always quite that simple. My situation is a perfect example. We have long suffered from a lack of DPEs in Oklahoma City. This is a metro area of 1.42 million people, and the largest in the state. And for most of the time I've been a CFI here, we've had zero, yes zero, DPEs. We have one in the process now, sort of, but he's not yet fully qualified to do checkrides, and has been working on that now for at least a year and a half (yes, "COVID", but the situation existed long before that too).
Why are there no DPEs in OKC? Simple answer is that Tulsa is in the same FSDO district, and they have quite a few up there for historical reasons. So as far as total numbers go, the FSDO probably looks just fine.
But only one of the Tulsa DPEs will travel and come down here. Now, he does a good job of scheduling days where he's going to be in this area and tries to get as many checkrides done as he can. But I count at least 7 decently busy flight schools in the OKC area and numerous independent CFIs like myself, there's no way he can cover them all.
Can our students travel to Tulsa? Of course. But that's certainly far from ideal, and expensive. I specialize in multiengine training, so traveling to Tulsa for a checkride will easily cost the applicant an additional $700+ dollars just in airplane costs alone. If you live in a rural area, then sure, you expect to have to travel - it's unavoidable. But again, we're talking about a significant metro area here with effectively no DPEs - the idea of having to travel from one metro area to another for a checkride should not make the FSDO say "sounds good enough to us".
Also, not all DPEs work as much as others. I know of some that will only do checkrides for a certain school. Or ones that only want to do a very occasional checkride, just enough to keep them DPE "current".
So you can't just make the blanket statement "there are plenty of DPEs, we just don't want to use them" without understanding the details.
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
How would someone know his availability if they don't call and inquire?
If the FSDO gets a complaint that a DPE is not taking request to give checks, then they will question the DPE, and if he can't make himself available in a reasonable time, then they will remove his designation and create a new one.
RussR
En-Route
But that's kind of assuming that you're omniscient, doesn't it?
Me - "Hi, I want to schedule a checkride. Do you have any availability in the next few weeks?"
DPE - "No, sorry."
Me - "Oh, okay, have a good day"
What am I going to report to the FSDO? Am I expected to interrogate the DPE about his upcoming checkride schedule? For all I know, they actually ARE busy doing checkrides.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
If this is your situation, then why is no one complaining? The examples of DPE's only wanting to do checks for a certain school, or the ones that just want the designation are perfect examples of needing intervention. Your other example of all the DPE's only being in one area (Tulsa) is another good example.
Start with a formal letter to the FSDO manager, and send copies all the way up to the Administrator. Also include your congressman and Senators in the cc column.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Designations are there and are expected to be available to the public. If the DPE's are too busy, now there is a reason for the local FSDO to appoint more. Let the FSDO do the work of finding out if these DPE's are actually giving checks or just hoarding the designation.
Formal letters to the FSDO citing problems will get some action. Complaining on an internet forum, not so much.
kgruber
Final Approach
We just used to walk into the GADO and schedule a ride for next week from the FAA. Back then they were pilots...............not paper pushers!
RussR
En-Route
You cannot make that assumption. But I will agree we should step it up.
But again, how does this work in practice? Am I expected to "report" every DPE who says they can't schedule me within some timeframe I find acceptable? I don't know why they're not available. I can't interrogate them. If they're not available, I have to just assume that they're busy doing checkrides. I'm not going to assume they just don't feel like doing checkrides this month. The FSDO has that data (number of checkrides performed by each DPE). I don't have any basis to report them.
I almost agree with doc on this one, but not quite. In support of his position, I found a DPE to do an instrument check ride in 3 days while I was visiting in Tucson. I didn’t shop around or use the guy my instructor recommended. I used the Faa resources and kept calling until I found someone willing to do it. It took 5 or 6 tries before I found one.
on the other hand, I had already waited for 5 weeks trying to find someone to do it in Tampa before I left for Tucson, so maybe it’s geographically dependent.
but back in docs defense, I didn’t “DPE shop” in Tampa, but there were a couple I did avoid due to getting bad feedback about them.
on the other hand, I had already waited for 5 weeks trying to find someone to do it in Tampa before I left for Tucson, so maybe it’s geographically dependent.
but back in docs defense, I didn’t “DPE shop” in Tampa, but there were a couple I did avoid due to getting bad feedback about them.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Why do you feel it's up to you to do the work of the FAA?
The FAA does track DPE activity. But if no one complains about DPE's not being available, then the FAA has no reason to investigate the cause.
Here's a simple solution for those who are having a difficult time getting check rides: Take the time to sit down and write the FSDO manager a letter stating the problem. CC that letter to the division manager and the head of Flight Standards. Also include the congressman and senators as well.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
You’re not reporting a DPE. You, as an instructor, are reporting your inability to get checkrides scheduled within a reasonable time, including details such as, “I contacted this list of DPEs in the area, this group had nothing for three weeks, this group had nothing for six weeks, and this guy said he was so far out that he wasn’t currently scheduling new applicants.”
RussR
En-Route
All the other inputs about how to work to resolve the problem are good and appropriate. However, this line of discussion started with me specifically responding to this post of Doc's, where he says to complain about individual DPEs' scheduling practices. I cannot see how this would work in real life, since you don't know WHY they can't fit you in.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
You don’t need to know why. Per the post you quoted from Doc, the FAA should do further investigation based on your information and take action if appropriate. DPEs who are not reasonably available for checkrides, i.e., low activity due to low availability rather than just nobody calling them, should not be DPEs. And that’s still up to the FAA to determine.
I would assume NAFI has a pretty good connection with the FAA and how the DPE situation is in various areas. Has any of the CFI’s in this thread contacted them for assistance or insight?
Cheers
Cheers
RussR
En-Route
Maybe we're just talking past each other here, I'm not sure. Yes, I get that the FAA should investigate DPEs who aren't doing enough. Of course.
But Doc said I should complain to the FSDO about a specific DPE if I can't get on that DPE's schedule. But how does that really play out? I call a DPE, he says he doesn't have any availability for a month. Do I then immediately call the FSDO and complain about him? Oh man, that sounds fun. On what basis? I have no known issue with that DPE. He's just busy doing checkrides as far as I know. I have no basis for that complaint ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC DPE. Yes, I have complaints about the process and numbers of examiners and such, but I have no reason (necessarily) to complain about that one DPE. Which is what Doc advised to do, and which is what I have been discussing.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
My point was if there is a known DPE that is not taking appointments, or only very selectively taking appointments, then yes, the FSDO needs to be made aware.
No, you move down the list to the next one. Unless you are like the many that have favorites and want to ignore other available DPE's.
You're reading too much into this.
Part of receiving the designation is the DPE must agree to make themselves available to perform their function. If they are not, then the FSDO needs to know, and then let the FSDO ask the questions.
I've had to do that exact thing with certain DAR/DERs on the maintenance side. But I do not consider it complaining. As mentioned above part of becoming a designee is being available to the public. When I had an approval schedule to maintain and the local DAR or pertinent DER could not work it into their schedule I would contact the FSDO for a solution. If I thought I was getting a run around I would mention that also which in 2 cases I followed up with a letter. So if there is a problem with your students getting check rides then at a minimum a call to the FSDO to see what can be done.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
The FAA does respond to this stuff. At least my FSDO does. Last summer I had a sequence of phone calls that went like this (paraphrased):
Ring Ring
Flight School: "Can you do Initial CFI checkrides?"
Me: "No"
Click
20 Minutes Later
Ring Ring
FAA Inspector: "Are you interested in doing Initial CFI Checkrides?"
Me: "Not really but I will"
Click
Within a month of that I was authorized for Initial, Add on CFI, CFII, and MEI.
Ring Ring
Flight School: "Can you do Initial CFI checkrides?"
Me: "No"
Click
20 Minutes Later
Ring Ring
FAA Inspector: "Are you interested in doing Initial CFI Checkrides?"
Me: "Not really but I will"
Click
Within a month of that I was authorized for Initial, Add on CFI, CFII, and MEI.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
If there is a specific DPE that never seems to have availability, and you know of no instructors who use him, that would be worth an inquiry to the FAA… “Is he really that busy?”
They can look online in a couple of minutes and see what he has entered into the FAA’s designee management system for checkrides scheduled and/or completed to see what his activity really is, and go from there.
if he’s doing checkrides 3-5 days a week for the next month, apparently there are instructors using him that you don’t know. If he’s got one checkride scheduled, and one completed recently, the FAA will address it. Either way, they should get get back to you and let you know.