Watching Oshkosh Arrival

Pinecone

Pinecone

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Pinecone
It is amazing. I am watching the arrivals using Plane Finder.

1) It is amazing how many people cannot fly 90 knots. The NOTAM specifies as well as the controllers telling everyone often. You see plane after plane at 94 - 96 knots GS, then someone at 110 - 115 knots. Now in a row 80, 75, 106 knots.

2) It is amazing how many people cannot fly at 1800 feet (or have the wrong altimeter setting). Right now, aircraft in a row at 1800, 1900, 1900, 1775, 1700.

3) Amazing the number of aircraft that do not seem to have ADSB.

Unfortunately the Green Dot cam is not streaming right now. I would like to watch the landings


Hmm, checking the numbers of some of the arriving aircraft, their registration has expired. :)
 
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Problem is it is IAS.... Who knows what head/tail wind you are in compared the the Aircraft in front of you.

Also you are keeping spacing the the aircraft in front of you so this creates a problem with catching or losing the pilot you are following. Which in turn impacts the pilot behind you.

I'm actually amazed on how well it actually works.
 
Is there a Mooney mass arrival today? A whole bunch of them a bit higher and off to the east of the standard arrival.
 
There was a discussion with RV pilots about the arrival, with a couple guys asserting that they will fly the fast mover 135 knot arrival because they think 90 is unsafely slow, or they’ll overheat at low power settings.

I flew our RV-8 alongside a Stearman the other day for 20 minutes or so. Holding 65-68 knots was a nothingburger. Temps were well below being a problem.

Fly good - don’t suck.
 
Hang 4 said:
Is there a Mooney mass arrival today? A whole bunch of them a bit higher and off to the east of the standard arrival.
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Watching the Green Dot livestream. Just saw the gaggle of Mooneys arrive.

Earlier there was a spider crawling up and down over the camera lens. Looked like a bad horror movie. The Arachnid That Ate Airventure.
eek.gif
 
Things moving well this Saturday morning. There was a C172 that cut in line to FISK and the cropduster working underneath the stream - fun to imagine the sight. A "Sterile" runway stop at FISK already. I'm using the live stream with both towers and FISK, as usual. One stuck mike right now. BTW There are many of us who are flying without ADS-B because we have no engine driven electrical. Don't be amazed, but keep your eyeballs out for VFR flying. Don't fly as if it was a video game. You should take this as proof that the ADS-B isn't exact and I'm sure the pilots are all doing well even with 100-50 feet differences. . . try hand flying on a hot OSH afternoon with audio saturation! Plus check the weather. There are building thunderstorms on FiSK approach.

Mass arrival of 113 Bonanzas coming in so they are turning back FISK.


TIME FOR VIRTUAL OSHKOSH
I've been doing this for over 15 years at least, so here are the links:

Oshkosh (the EAA to the locals) by the end of the week will be most entertaining and educational, as the traffic starts to build on Friday-Sunday before the show.

So here is Virtual Oshkosh for those of us who can't make it is here:

EAA Field Webcams and links to LiveATC is https://www.eaa.org/airventure/live

ADS-B tracking is amazing to watch: https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?airport=kosh

Live ATC proper is https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=kosh I enjoy the stereo north and south towers if they have it again this year, with a little dash of FISK arrival as the traffic starts to stream in.

You can always read the Flight Procedures, formerly the NOTAM, here: https://www.eaa.org/.../eaa.../eaa-airventure-oshkosh-notam

And check out the Oshkosh Northwestern Newspaper too. Limited free articles: https://www.thenorthwestern.com/

And local TV, such as: https://www.wearegreenbay.com/

My favorite weather site for advance planning: https://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/launch/code.cgi?Submit=Go&sta=KOSH&state=WI
 
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Just pulled up the ADS-B feed and saw that they were putting everyone in holds. I assumed there might have been a disabled aircraft. Then she announced the reason: someone tried to land on 36 when 18 was the runway in use! Pay attention folks.
 
Between all of the live video at the field, plus all of the audio from Fisk and the towers, I wish there was some kind of "greatest hits" that was put together after the show. Does anyone do that?

In just a couple of minutes listening to the Green Dot stream, there was (I think) a P-47 on final that all of a sudden announced a go around. Tower inquired why they went around, and the P-47 said "traffic on the runway." Tower then tried to convince them that the traffic would have been off the runway by the time they touched down, and the P-47 was having none of it.

Thought it was an interesting exchange.
 
Tony R said:
Problem is it is IAS.... Who knows what head/tail wind you are in compared the the Aircraft in front of you.

Also you are keeping spacing the the aircraft in front of you so this creates a problem with catching or losing the pilot you are following. Which in turn impacts the pilot behind you.

I'm actually amazed on how well it actually works.
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REALLY???

A 20 knot difference in the wind speed between two airplanes at the same altitude, 1/2 mile in trail? That is a pretty amazing weather system.
 
ateamer said:
There was a discussion with RV pilots about the arrival, with a couple guys asserting that they will fly the fast mover 135 knot arrival because they think 90 is unsafely slow, or they’ll overheat at low power settings.

I flew our RV-8 alongside a Stearman the other day for 20 minutes or so. Holding 65-68 knots was a nothingburger. Temps were well below being a problem.

Fly good - don’t suck.
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Saw a couple of Beech 35s flying the fast mover arrival. While a 3 ship of the same aircraft make/model was flying the normal arrival. :D

Flying the fast mover pattern in an airplane that will fly fine at 90 knots says something about your flying skills.
 
fasteddie said:
Between all of the live video at the field, plus all of the audio from Fisk and the towers, I wish there was some kind of "greatest hits" that was put together after the show. Does anyone do that?
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AirShow Stuff does some compilations on YouTube. They have a couple of hours-long videos up now of arrivals and departures at Airventure 22, and last night they already had a 15-minute video of early arrivals this year. Unfortunately no ATC, though.
fasteddie said:
In just a couple of minutes listening to the Green Dot stream, there was (I think) a P-47 on final that all of a sudden announced a go around. Tower inquired why they went around, and the P-47 said "traffic on the runway." Tower then tried to convince them that the traffic would have been off the runway by the time they touched down, and the P-47 was having none of it.

Thought it was an interesting exchange.
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I saw that too, and was following it on ADS-B Exchange as it happened. There didn't appear to be anything unusual in the spacing.
 
Pinecone said:
REALLY???

A 20 knot difference in the wind speed between two airplanes at the same altitude, 1/2 mile in trail? That is a pretty amazing weather system.
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Yes, if you throw in the accordion effect. Guy in front of you slows down, you get a downdraft, your IAS can swing from 90 to sub-80 real fast. I had to peel out twice to keep a safe-ish distance to the guys in front of me. Got lucky as at Fisk the two guys in front of me got kicked to make spacing for us in trail. Lots of kicks actually.
 
Pinecone said:
Flying the fast mover pattern in an airplane that will fly fine at 90 knots says something about your flying skills.
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I can easily fly my Bo at 90. But after 30 minutes in the Fisk approach the cht is climbing due to low airflow and depending on the outside temps.
 
Initial Fix said:
I can easily fly my Bo at 90. But after 30 minutes in the Fisk approach the cht is climbing due to low airflow and depending on the outside temps.
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Hmm, the same time I saw a Bo in the fast pattern, there was a 3 ship of Bos in the regular pattern. :)
 
masloki said:
Yes, if you throw in the accordion effect. Guy in front of you slows down, you get a downdraft, your IAS can swing from 90 to sub-80 real fast. I had to peel out twice to keep a safe-ish distance to the guys in front of me. Got lucky as at Fisk the two guys in front of me got kicked to make spacing for us in trail. Lots of kicks actually.
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But a 20 knot or more difference in GS? And sustained over a couple of miles.

I lost a friend because the guy in front of him slowed WAY down on final. People need to practice to fly ON speed and ON altitude and FOLLOW the NOTAM.
 
Pinecone said:
It is amazing. I am watching the arrivals using Plane Finder.

1) It is amazing how many people cannot fly 90 knots. The NOTAM specifies as well as the controllers telling everyone often. You see plane after plane at 94 - 96 knots GS, then someone at 110 - 115 knots. Now in a row 80, 75, 106 knots.

2) It is amazing how many people cannot fly at 1800 feet (or have the wrong altimeter setting). Right now, aircraft in a row at 1800, 1900, 1900, 1775, 1700.

3) Amazing the number of aircraft that do not seem to have ADSB.

Unfortunately the Green Dot cam is not streaming right now. I would like to watch the landings


Hmm, checking the numbers of some of the arriving aircraft, their registration has expired. :)
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Have you personally done the arrival? It's easy to criticize if you haven't done it.

Now that being said - I have flown it several times and agree with your criticism. Too many making excuses for poor maintenance or poor airmanship (or laziness) which is why they 'need' to fly the fast approach in light GA planes that should have no issue with it. Last year there were so many pilots arguing with the fisk controllers that it clogged up the radio.
 
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Tony R said:
Problem is it is IAS.... Who knows what head/tail wind you are in compared the the Aircraft in front of you…
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Add in indicator error, especially at higher angle of attack/lower airspeed.
 
Once you are in the line you are looking at the guy you are following most of the time, not the airspeed indicator.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Last year there were so many pilots arguing with the fisk controllers that it clogged up the radio.
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I am but a mere spectator, but yeah, that always drove me nuts when listening to the Fisk audio feeds. This weekend, I heard the occasional "But this is our third time!" when someone got sent around back to Endeavor for whatever reason. Also the occasional pilot chiming in with something like "Hey, everyone needs to keep their speed at 90 knots, please."

I recall last year being worse, though, with pilot's clogging up the Fisk radio.
 
This was posted on FB by someone that was working the tower at OSH.

"For anyone planning on flying into OSH still this week: Saturday afternoon in the tower, I witnessed more pilots not following the notam as they approached the airport than I have in my previous 3 years combined. From multiple attempts to land R36L when everyone else was using R18R (one actually did) to aircraft entering the left downwind for R27 instead of the right. One pilot even went from right downwind on R27 and then turned to R18R and landed, cutting in front of traffic on final for R27.

Be safe. Be familiar with the notam. Know what you will be expected to fly for each possible runway. Have fun and we’ll see you when you get here!"
 
fasteddie said:
I recall last year being worse, though, with pilot's clogging up the Fisk radio.
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There was SO much arguing last year. Just a small taste from my arrival in 2022.

Fisk approach "Cessna XXXAA you cut in line, get in the back of the line the line starts at Endeavor"
Cessna XXXAA "NO I DIDN'T I STARTED WHERE IT SAID TO START"
Fisk Approach "You started at Green lake, please go back and start again if you cut in line you will be turned away.
Cessna XXXAA "WE STARTED IN THE RIGHT SPOT"
Fisk Approach "Break off your approach and start over"
Cessna XXXAA: Stops responding and continues the approach


Fisk Approach "We have too much traffic we are closing the fast approach, all aircraft 90 knots on the low approach"
Whiny Bonanza pilot "WE can't go 90 knots"
Fisk approach "Yes you can, join the low approach at 90 knots"
Whiny Bonanza pilot "NO WE CAN'T YOU COME FLY MY PLANE THEN"

Fisk approach "Flight of RV's continue inbound"
Sportsman Lead pilot "No we're a flight of SPORTSMANS"
Fisk APproach "I was talking to the RV flight"
Fisk approach "RV Flight rock your wings"
Sportsman lead pilot "NO ITS A FLIGHT OF GLASAIR SPORTSMANS"
Fisk approach "still not talking to you"
Sportsman lead pilot "WE ARE A FLIGHT OF 7 SPORTSMANS"

The incompetence and "me me me" mentality was just absurd. I felt so bad for the controllers. They need enforcement.

If you feel the need to speak on the Fisk approach and they haven't asked you a question - you ****ed up.
 
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I'll be riding in the back with my dad and instructor up front. It'll be nice just enjoying the circus.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Have you personally done the arrival? It's easy to criticize if you haven't done it.

Now that being said - I have flown it several times and agree with your criticism. Too many making excuses for poor maintenance or poor airmanship (or laziness) which is why they 'need' to fly the fast approach in light GA planes that should have no issue with it. Last year there were so many pilots arguing with the fisk controllers that it clogged up the radio.
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Yes I have. In a T-34A with IO-550. NO problem holding 90 knots.
 
I can't fly at the speed in the configuration they ask for. With gear down, my limitations keeps me from doing 90 knots. With the gear up, I can do it.
Mostly, I fly the warbird approach. I can go from 135 knots and put it down on the threshold without the need for the break.
 
If it’s one’s first time, totally understand. A lot going on.
 
Perhaps they need to start specifying which aircraft type needs the fast approach. At least for the common types.
First Bo' that goes fast, give em the boot.
 
Sigh. Really bums me out reading this instead of being there. Next year.

On my first time flying in 2 years ago, I was super anxious about the approach. Everything went great. Felt like an old pro.
 
What day is the best on for someone flying the Fisk approach for the first time? Friday?
 
Runway Incidents Affect AirVenture Traffic...

www.avweb.com

Runway Incidents Affect AirVenture Traffic - AVweb

A trio of minor runway mishaps on Saturday and Sunday caused some anxious moments and inconvenience for some pilots as traffic poured in to Wittman Field for AirVenture 2023. EAA spokesman Dick Knapinski said that on Saturday the pilot of a Bonanza landed on the opposite runway to which he or...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com

Pretty common for this event!
 
Yeah, take what happens at a regular airport and amplify it by the fact that there are a lot of feds and others working. Any incident here involves lots of people who insist on taking part in the "investigation." It's amazing how much non-emergency vehicles shoot down the taxiway en route. I kind of drew the line at the guy who had kids in the car and filed an official complaint.

WIth all the runways operational, the arrival is a breeze. If we lose one, it really disrupts the flow. Tower relies on shuffling things between 27 and 36 in normal operations to maintain the spacing on the Fisk transition.
 
Totally get it but.. landing opposite direction in a non-emergency? You’re following thousands of aircraft and see what they do, where they go. I can’t see how you would recover from that one. I’d have to repaint the plane and get a new tail number.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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