walking in a movement area

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Whew! What the hell was I thinking?

Plane was crashed upside down on a runway where I was flying today. I was told I could land in the grass. I did and taxied to a parking spot got out and walked towered the accident plane.

Here comes some sort of truck w/ flashing lights easily doing 80 right toward me.

This guy chewed my ass soooooo bad. I was walking on a taxiway as I have done at a hundred uncontrolled fields when I take photos of planes landing and what not.

Apparently this is not only frowned upon at a controlled field but a federal offense?

He said he should be giving me a $500 fine and how the hell am I a pilot and don't know I am not allowed to be standing on a taxiway?


Man, have stood on taxiways for egg drops, fly-ins, and as mentioned before, just to shot photos.

This guy ripped me a new one.

I was nowhere near the accident plane and that was not the issue at all.
He made me get in his truck and he drove me back to my plane.

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That happened to me but it was a guy from the skydiving operations that kinda politely told me I could not walk on the taxiway. I was looking for a set of keys that a buddy forgot to grab before he taxied to the active. The airport manager picked me up in his truck and drove me around so I could look for them.
 
This guy had a major stick up his ass. I decided he must want to be a pilot but couldn't pass his checkride.
 
Spinks. Man he was mean.
I almost said "Just go ahead and give me the fine so you can stop threatening to give it to me"

He just kept repeating "I really should be giving you a fine" "This should be costing you $500 right now" "I am going to give you a ride to your plane but what I should be doing is giving you a ticket"

This nonsense went on for a minute and a half easily.
 
I got picked up by security once for walking down the ramp. A buddy was picking me up and taxied to the FBO instead of my flight school. I start walking down the ramp and security pulls up, tells me that even though I'm not in a movement area I'm within the security area and gives me a ride down to my buddy's plane.


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Yeah it's like walking in a runway just not as bad. That's ATC territory. That's why you have service vehicles calling for clearance. Can't treat a taxiway like a ramp.
 
Carry a hand held and call ground for clearance to walk.

--

Sounds goofy, but that's how it works. I've done it when acting as ground suport for glider ops at a D airport. Somebody had to be on the rwy and taxiway to walk the wings and pick up rhe tow rope.
 
This is post 9/11 airport security at its best. And yes, I do get irritated when a minimum wage paper boy gets all huffy with me and threatens me. I would have taken his speeding towards me as a threat of severe bodily harm with a motor vehicle and be in fear of my life. A felony by the way. I am sure his intent of speeding towards you was to intimidate you. I would bring this up to his boss, and not politely.


People with huge egos make me laugh, usually right in their face.

And you probably did it the best way, just let him ramble.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I was nowhere near the accident plane and that was not the issue at all.
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Your position relative to the accident doesn't matter. Because it's a movement area, the tower could have cleared a helicopter to land on the taxiway, which, obviously, wasn't clear since you were on it.

As for the airport employee's reaction, I don't know of any avenue for fining you for a movement area violation unless you agreed to it as a condition to getting an AO badge for the airport.
 
Matthew said:
Carry a hand held and call ground for clearance to walk.

--

Sounds goofy, but that's how it works. I've done it when acting as ground suport for glider ops at a D airport. Somebody had to be on the rwy and taxiway to walk the wings and pick up rhe tow rope.
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Yup, just ask permission. If you have no radio, you need to have a vehicle with appropriate lights(flashing yellow, or whatev they say).

As for the fine, it's muni and he might be right. The rules at public airports are onerous. If you want to read some real BS crap, pull up the rules for operating at Cleburne.

<edit: Yup, found it:

Sec. 3-102. - Vehicle and pedestrian communications in airport movement areas.
(a) Taxiing aircraft shall have the right-of-way in preference over pedestrians and all other motor vehicles at all airports.
(b) At any airport that has a control tower, it shall be unlawful for any person to walk or drive a vehicle on or across any portion of a movement area unless (i) that person has received proper authorization from the control tower to walk or drive on or across any portion of the movement area and is in and maintains constant radio contact with the control tower while walking or driving on or across any portion of the movement area or (ii) for an operator of an aircraft or other motor vehicle, that person has received a light signal or similar clear permission from the control tower prior to operating such aircraft or other motor vehicle on any portion of the movement area.
(c) At any airport that does not have a control tower, it shall be unlawful for any person to walk or drive a vehicle on or across any portion of the movement area unless that person has received proper authorization from the director or authorized designee to walk or drive on or across any portion of the movement area and (i) is in and maintains constant contact with the authorized UNICOM operator by way of two-way radio or (ii) is under escort by an individual who is in and maintains constant contact with the authorized UNICOM operator by way of two-way radio.
(d) A violation of this section 3-102 shall constitute a misdemeanor criminal offense punishable by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00). >
 
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Come to our island airport. Not only is it very pretty, but you can just walk across the runway and cast a line. It's widely considered to be a great place to fish.

I've seen as many as a dozen people walk right across the runway, setting up awnings and dragging chairs and coolers. lol
 
Sounds like a reportable pedestrian deviation, but I'm fairly certain the fellow doing the threatening had no power to fine you - just issue a citation. According to the following document on vehicle/pedestrian deviations the event would have first lead to an investigation and probably nothing more than a warning:

http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/media/vpd_briefing.pdf

My kind of flying rarely takes me into controlled fields, but I did recently fly into one (RHV) where the only way to get from the tie down area I parked at was to cross a named taxiway. And the FBO drove my rental car up to the plane. There was no communication with ground control when we moved both the plane and car to the FBO's parking spots (I had parked in the wrong place.) I would have thought we were in movement areas. I simply followed the FBO guy's lead. No angry mob appeared.
 
About the only thing they don't want people to do at my field is to drive a car across the runway to get to the other side of the airport.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Sounds like a reportable pedestrian deviation, but I'm fairly certain the fellow doing the threatening had no power to fine you - just issue a citation.
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The guy in the truck may not even be the guy to write the citation, but the airport cop, or the Fort Worth city cop could. As for the fine, it's up to $500. I would bet in TX they would get at least the amount to cover the cost of the hearing, so maybe $250 first time. It sure wouldn't be free.
 
And just to clarify. I am well aware I was in the wrong. Truly is a lesson learned.
Doesn't make the guy in the truck any less of an a$shole
 
Sometimes I'm glad I'm based at a uncontrolled small town airfield.

I'll sit on the hold short sign and watch my students solo flights. If it's a crappy day to fly I'll take my private students, walk down the taxiway and have them ID lights and markings.

Some of our military students will use the taxiway to run in the early mornings/evenings.
 
I am surprised no one has mentioned to file an ASRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sarcasm)
 
Had a pilot deviation written up on two friends who last year left their aircraft and walked on a taxiway to avoid flooded grass and a locked gate.

Fortunately I learned this lesson at someone else's expense.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Sounds like a reportable pedestrian deviation, but I'm fairly certain the fellow doing the threatening had no power to fine you - just issue a citation. According to the following document on vehicle/pedestrian deviations the event would have first lead to an investigation and probably nothing more than a warning:

http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/media/vpd_briefing.pdf

My kind of flying rarely takes me into controlled fields, but I did recently fly into one (RHV) where the only way to get from the tie down area I parked at was to cross a named taxiway. And the FBO drove my rental car up to the plane. There was no communication with ground control when we moved both the plane and car to the FBO's parking spots (I had parked in the wrong place.) I would have thought we were in movement areas. I simply followed the FBO guy's lead. No angry mob appeared.
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Movement areas are marked by dashed single yellow lines. At RHV, only Y and Z and the various runway turnoffs are movement areas. None of the parking areas are, but some of them do have identifiers.
 
I don't know if it's still the case, but the model R/C club at Vichy (VIH) used to fly off the inactive north south runway. To get there, you had to drive on the ramp, down a taxi way and cross runway 22. Recommend procedure? "You probably oughta turn your blinkers on so they can see you."
 
MAKG1 said:
Movement areas are marked by dashed single yellow lines. At RHV, only Y and Z and the various runway turnoffs are movement areas. None of the parking areas are, but some of them do have identifiers.
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Ah yes, I just checked the satellite view and see that I had moved out of the movement area for taxi Z as I traveled north to park near the helicopter spots. I was too busy looking for the tie down numbers to notice when I had left the movement area.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This guy had a major stick up his ass. I decided he must want to be a pilot but couldn't pass his checkride.
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Actually, what you did get's reported about the same as if you taxied your airplane onto a runway without a clearance to do so. And the FAA has been pushing hard to reduce such reports so there's a good chance that whoever was giving you the third degree had been on the receiving end of a serious lecture on that very issue.

That said, if a plane crashed and I felt I could save someone's life by running out to the crash site I'd probably postpone worrying about getting written up for an incursion. But if I was just trying to get a better view, I'd either remain out of the movement areas or get an "official" ride out there.
 
gismo said:
Actually, what you did get's reported about the same as if you taxied your airplane onto a runway without a clearance to do so. And the FAA has been pushing hard to reduce such reports so there's a good chance that whoever was giving you the third degree had been on the receiving end of a serious lecture on that very issue.

That said, if a plane crashed and I felt I could save someone's life by running out to the crash site I'd probably postpone worrying about getting written up for an incursion. But if I was just trying to get a better view, I'd either remain out of the movement areas or get an "official" ride out there.
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I agree and I get that now. But it is not something that comes up during training. I am used to the uncontrolled field I trained out where walked all over the place. I was in the wrong but I just get irritated.

When he said "How are you a pilot and you don't know this?" What a dumbass question. The only answer is "Well I'm a pilot and I don't know this"
 
I had to go to the KADS ground movement training to get through the fence access. Anyway, they had a good story about why people are not allowed to walk around the airport.

Apparently a guy goes into the flight museum, takes some pictures, exits out the back, and starts walking around on the taxiways. He decides to take some pictures of aircraft on approach. So he goes out into the grass adjacent to the runway and gets down behind one of the taxiway signs. He has a long telephoto lens and starts taking pictures. All the tower can see is a guy crouching behind a sign with a long white tube. They close the airport, call the cops, etc. Of course he was just a photographer, so nothing came of it, but a lot of money was spent rerouting jets and other aircraft.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I had to go to the KADS ground movement training to get through the fence access. Anyway, they had a good story about why people are not allowed to walk around the airport.

Apparently a guy goes into the flight museum, takes some pictures, exits out the back, and starts walking around on the taxiways. He decides to take some pictures of aircraft on approach. So he goes out into the grass adjacent to the runway and gets down behind one of the taxiway signs. He has a long telephoto lens and starts taking pictures. All the tower can see is a guy crouching behind a sign with a long white tube. They close the airport, call the cops, etc. Of course he was just a photographer, so nothing came of it, but a lot of money was spent rerouting jets and other aircraft.
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Paranoia....

I am assuming, even if you asked, they would not let you walk out next to the runway and take pictures, correct?
 
"The other guy said the fine was only $250. So what are you going to do with the other $250?
 
Well I agree the guy overreacted, he is right though. This is something that all certified pilots should know. Unfortunately I don't think most CFIs are covering this with their students.

At my last unit my pilots were asking ground to reposition their aircraft on the ramp. It wasn't until I got in the definitions of movement and non-movement areas and showed them the airport diagram, that I realized most had no idea about the differences.

You have to look at both movement and non-movement areas as ATC liability and non-liability. Ground doesn't care what goes on in the ramp area and they wouldn't want that responsibility anyway. With people and equipment moving all over the place and usually limited viewing area, they want no part of giving specific taxi clearances for aircraft on the ramp. Same reason local gives "landing will be at your own risk" for helicopters in non-movement areas.

So either stick with the definition of movement area and stay off taxiways, helipads and runways or make sure you get a specific airport diagram for where you're operating at. Such as RHV:
 

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dans2992 said:
Paranoia....

I am assuming, even if you asked, they would not let you walk out next to the runway and take pictures, correct?
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I'm sure they would allow pictures. This is a pretty busy airport, lots of people coming and going, aircraft up to MD80/737 size, so you would need to know where you could go and be safe. They would probably require the class or be escorted.
 
Velocity173 said:
This is something that all certified pilots should know. Unfortunately I don't think most CFIs are covering this with their students.
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I'm sorry but some things should be obvious for anyone with commonsense. It is called a "controlled airport" for a reason. It should be obvious to anyone with any commonsense, especially a pilot, that you shouldn't be out wandering around.
 
You must drive or walk down the taxi-way to get to my hangar, but we're not controlled.

I don't take kindly to ass-chewing's unless I have caused an immediate and immanent danger.

I'll bet the rent-a-cop goes home to a 300 pounder with more arm hair than him ...
 
txflyer said:
I'll bet the rent-a-cop goes home to a 300 pounder with more arm hair than him ...
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So let me explain why "rent-a-cop" was right to be upset...

Ever heard of runway incursions? What is a runway incusion? From the FAA website:

Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft

Do you know what happens when a runway incursion occurs at a controlled airport? Yes, that airport gets dinged. How does it get dinged? If they get too many runway incursions the FAA can REQUIRE action to bring down the number of incursions. So what does this mean for "rent-a-cop"? If this happens on his watch he is going to probably suffer in some way.

He had every right to get upset. As for the OP, man up and accept that you were wrong and stop bitching about it.
 
vince said:
He had every right to get upset. As for the OP, man up and accept that you were wrong and stop bitching about it.
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Pretty sure I stated I was in the wrong on this thread.
Also put it in lessons learned. Also didn't post it under unregistered.
 
This thread has We've Met The Enemy And He Is Us written all over it.

Seriously, how did you get the cert yet not know that? Also, did it occur to the OP that maybe he wasn't the first infraction that day? It can be a frustrating struggle to keep and area secure of ignorant pedestrians. OP didn't know anything but by golly he knows airport guy has a stick up his ass. OP says he knows he was wrong but isn't contrite about it.
 
At a tower-controlled airport, nobody is allowed in the movement area without radio contact or coordination with the tower -- not even on foot. That's a hard-and-fast FAA rule designed to prevent runway incursions and other serious safety problems. Airports may also have their own regulations which could include fines for violations of such local ordinances just like for littering or parking your car in a "no parking" zone.

At a nontowered airport, the presence of people or vehicles inside the runway safety zone while operations are in progress is a technical safety violation unless prior coordination is obtained. Many pilots will go around if they see anyone inside the runway safety area without knowing about it in advance, and I certainly can't argue with anyone choosing to do that. However, there's no such thing as a "movement area" at a non-towered airport since there's no tower from which to obtain entry clearance.
 
Much easier to offer the offender a ride and explain why he should not be there. Not to mention the taxiway is paid for by the offenders taxes. In personel you usually get what you pay for.
 
This would definitely get you into hot water at my field (Denver Centennial, KAPA), but the guy who picked you up was a bit of a DB, in my opinion.
 
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