walking in a movement area

Unregistered said:
This thread has We've Met The Enemy And He Is Us written all over it.

Seriously, how did you get the cert yet not know that? Also, did it occur to the OP that maybe he wasn't the first infraction that day? It can be a frustrating struggle to keep and area secure of ignorant pedestrians. OP didn't know anything but by golly he knows airport guy has a stick up his ass. OP says he knows he was wrong but isn't contrite about it.
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No the issue is he should just have given me the fine. I am an adult and don't need to be lectured. Tell me what I did wrong and fine me or don't. But he was not my daddy and need not act like it.
 
vince said:
So let me explain why "rent-a-cop" was right to be upset...

Ever heard of runway incursions? What is a runway incusion? From the FAA website:

Any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take off of aircraft

Do you know what happens when a runway incursion occurs at a controlled airport? Yes, that airport gets dinged. How does it get dinged? If they get too many runway incursions the FAA can REQUIRE action to bring down the number of incursions. So what does this mean for "rent-a-cop"? If this happens on his watch he is going to probably suffer in some way.

He had every right to get upset. As for the OP, man up and accept that you were wrong and stop bitching about it.
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He was walking down a TAXIWAY. Ya think if a plane were on it he couldn't get out of the way? He ain't in a wheelchair ..... :nonod:

O.k. OP was wrong and the mall cop was in the right. That doesn't mean said cop has the right to go all bipolar about it...

Once the point is made, I know some old redneck boys that would clean his clock for just being rude beyond that point. Like OP, I may have said "just give me the fine you ****ing asshat and shut your pie hole." That would be worth $500 to me.


mountain-or-molehill.jpg
 
I once drove out of a gate at a controlled airport and didn't wait until the gate completely closed behind me. There was a sign saying I needed to wait for the gate to close. I waited until the gate was about halfway closed and then figured that because there was nobody else driving down the road towards me and the gate was definitely closing that I was fine. I pulled away and maybe two miles down the road got pulled over by a cop. He gave me a lecture about waiting for the gate to fully close and also told me (like you were told) that I could have got a $500 fine. He was right and I listened to him and apologized. I never would have thought to get online and ***** about it. In my opinion that shows some anti-authority tendencies. He was just doing his job.
 
vince said:
I once drove out of a gate at a controlled airport and didn't wait until the gate completely closed behind me. There was a sign saying I needed to wait for the gate to close. I waited until the gate was about halfway closed and then figured that because there was nobody else driving down the road towards me and the gate was definitely closing that I was fine. I pulled away and maybe two miles down the road got pulled over by a cop. He gave me a lecture about waiting for the gate to fully close and also told me (like you were told) that I could have got a $500 fine. He was right and I listened to him and apologized. I never would have thought to get online and ***** about it. In my opinion that shows some anti-authority tendencies. He was just doing his job.
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But those damn asians...
Apology accepted.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
No the issue is he should just have given me the fine. I am an adult and don't need to be lectured. Tell me what I did wrong and fine me or don't. But he was not my daddy and need not act like it.
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I look at it this way: You're not likely to ever make that mistake again. Maybe his admonition will save your life someday because you will know not to go somewhere dangerous. And he saved you $500.00 while doing so.
 
PPC1052 said:
I look at it this way: You're not likely to ever make that mistake again. Maybe his admonition will save your life someday because you will know not to go somewhere dangerous. And he saved you $500.00 while doing so.
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Damn skippy.
I'm not stepping foot in a movement area again.

Lesson Learned.
 
As I sit here and read this, I am thinking I may not have specifically told my students not to walk past the yellow line. I certainly taught them not to cross the line in an airplane or car without clearance from ground control.

If I ever do primary instruction again I will be sure to include that.
 
Zeldman said:
As I sit here and read this, I am thinking I may not have specifically told my students not to walk past the yellow line. I certainly taught them not to cross the line in an airplane or car without clearance from ground control.

If I ever do primary instruction again I will be sure to include that.
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My instructor and I never left an airplane at a controlled field.
We flew to them for TnG and at our uncontrolled field we walked all over it.

Really just a case of having never been told.
 
Velocity173 said:
There's a friends list like FB on POA?
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Yeah, go to their user profile, on the right side there is a list of any friends and a button to invite that person to be a friend.

Your profile shows you as having "austinglasair" as a friend.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My instructor and I never left an airplane at a controlled field.
We flew to them for TnG and at our uncontrolled field we walked all over it.

Really just a case of having never been told.
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I've been flying for 15 years and I knew about vehicles and aircraft needing a clearance but did not know pedestrians did as well. If not prohibited I assumed it was at least "frowned upon", but I never did it, so yes this is not being taught.

So, when the tower closes can you setup a lawn chair 10 feet from the runway edge (in the grass) and watch landings? ;)
 
dans2992 said:
I've been flying for 15 years and I knew about vehicles and aircraft needing a clearance but did not know pedestrians did as well. If not prohibited I assumed it was at least "frowned upon", but I never did it, so yes this is not being taught.

So, when the tower closes can you setup a lawn chair 10 feet from the runway edge (in the grass) and watch landings? ;)
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Thats a good question
 
Let me ask this.
Is it prohibited at uncontrolled fields and we just get away with it because there is no controller?

Or is the rule that it is okay to be on movement areas at uncontrolled fields but not controlled fields?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
When he said "How are you a pilot and you don't know this?" What a dumbass question. The only answer is "Well I'm a pilot and I don't know this"
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Agreed. Some folks can't understand how it's possible that someone doesn't know something that seems obvious to them. I think I would have answered by asking "How is it that you don't know the answer to your own question"?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Let me ask this.
Is it prohibited at uncontrolled fields and we just get away with it because there is no controller?

Or is the rule that it is okay to be on movement areas at uncontrolled fields but not controlled fields?
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The only applicable FAA regulation I can find is 91.129(i):
§91.129 - Operations in Class D airspace.
...
(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to “taxi to” the takeoff runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that runway at any point, but is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to “taxi to” any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.​
As you can see, there is no mention of pedestrians or ground vehicles. It may be that there is something buried in Part 139 that requires Class B, C, and D airports enact local regs or rules requiring people and their vehicles get ATC approval before entering movement areas, but I'm too lazy to do that research. If that is the case then as a pedestrian you'd be violating a local law - the feds wouldn't seem to have any regulation they could charge you with violating.

Since the whole point of the rules is to make a safer environment, inadequate signage and poor awareness of the rules is a failure of the authorities. You did what I might have done because most of my flying takes me to non-towered airports. I stay off taxiways and runways as much as possible anyway and try to make my way to where I want to go on the ramp while keeping a safe distance from other aircraft.

I found it interesting to search the PDF version of the AIM for the phrase "movement area". Scattered info buried in a sea of information.
 
I'll be completely honest: I could see myself doing this if some unusual occasion had me walking near a taxiway at my home airport. And my entire training was done at a mid-sized towered airport. Like another poster mentioned, I know all about not entering a movement area in a vehicle. But I could see myself accidentally walking into the area because it doesn't seem to be something that's drilled into your head during training.

Sorta' like fueling your airplane if you grew up on rentals at a full-service field. Sometimes the "obvious" stuff doesn't get conveyed.

So thanks, Bryan, for preventing my future ass-chewing. :D
 
asechrest said:
I'll be completely honest: I could see myself doing this if some unusual occasion had me walking near a taxiway at my home airport. And my entire training was done at a mid-sized towered airport. Like another poster mentioned, I know all about not entering a movement area in a vehicle. But I could see myself accidentally walking into the area because it doesn't seem to be something that's drilled into your head during training.

Sorta' like fueling your airplane if you grew up on rentals at a full-service field. Sometimes the "obvious" stuff doesn't get conveyed.

So thanks, Bryan, for preventing my future ass-chewing. :D
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Maybe you should thank the person that chewed him out. But for the over-the-top ass-reaming (sans $500.00 fine), Bryan many never have shared his experience here.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Let me ask this.
Is it prohibited at uncontrolled fields and we just get away with it because there is no controller?

Or is the rule that it is okay to be on movement areas at uncontrolled fields but not controlled fields?
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Depends on the airport. (Ask kimberlyanne about Wings)
I would not assume that it's ok.

Another thing to consider - whether permitted or not - is the reaction of/impact on pilots who may not (likely will not) know your intentions, know that you know what you're doing in an airport environment, know that you're even aware of their plane's presence ...

I usually stay well away until I'm certain the crazy unpredictable guy is no factor.
Same goes for your little dog, too.
And, yes, I curse you for the inconvenience. :rolleyes:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Let me ask this.
Is it prohibited at uncontrolled fields and we just get away with it because there is no controller?

Or is the rule that it is okay to be on movement areas at uncontrolled fields but not controlled fields?
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Moot question -- there's no such thing as a movement area at a nontowered airport. The only FAA issue there is the runway safety area, and being in the RSA while someone is taking off or landing is a usually a violation of local airport rules (which airport management can enforce). The runway safety area is usually not well-marked other than by the "hold short" lines, but if you just look at those, it shouldn't be hard to figure out how far to stand back while airplanes are taking off an landing.

That said, nontowered airports may still have local restrictions on vehicle/pedestrian movements on the airport surface, along with the legal authority from local government to punish violators. So if you don't know, ask the local authorities (like the airport manager's office).
 
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Jim Logajan said:
The only applicable FAA regulation I can find is 91.129(i):
§91.129 - Operations in Class D airspace.
...
(i) Takeoff, landing, taxi clearance. No person may, at any airport with an operating control tower, operate an aircraft on a runway or taxiway, or take off or land an aircraft, unless an appropriate clearance is received from ATC. A clearance to “taxi to” the takeoff runway assigned to the aircraft is not a clearance to cross that assigned takeoff runway, or to taxi on that runway at any point, but is a clearance to cross other runways that intersect the taxi route to that assigned takeoff runway. A clearance to “taxi to” any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is clearance to cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.​
As you can see, there is no mention of pedestrians or ground vehicles.
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That's because Part 91 is not written to regulate pedestrians or ground vehicles. However, if you dig around in other FAR Parts/Orders, I'm sure you'll find the restrictions on such activities which must be enforced by airport authorities.
 
For Part 139 airports (139.329):

(d) When an air traffic control tower is not in operation, or there is no air traffic control tower, provide adequate procedures to control pedestrians and ground vehicles in movement areas or safety areas through two-way radio communications or prearranged signs or signals;
 
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colojo said:
This would definitely get you into hot water at my field (Denver Centennial, KAPA), but the guy who picked you up was a bit of a DB, in my opinion.
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Where? A large chunk of KAPA isn't a movement area. Runway 10/28 and anything west of and including Alpha is. You may freely wander damn near anywhere you like on foot, east of Alpha. And I have.

That said, you might get a visit from the Airport Ops truck.

The "taxiway" along 10/28 is not a movement area. Sight lines from the Tower can't see over the hangars along there, so it will never be designated as such, either. There's no way to positively control it.

It's kinda funny the tower even bothers with "taxi to parking" after a landing on 28. I'm usually halfway to the hangar when I hear that. Once you're past the line and off of 28, you don't need a clearance to go anywhere over there.

West of Alpha, grab a handheld and ask the ground controller for permission to walk out there if you need to. Have done that too. Not a big deal. Airport Ops truck might show up to give you a ride.

With appropriate insurance, and a legitimate reason to be out there in a vehicle, and a sticker on the vehicle, you can drive around the whole place, east of Alpha. Done that too. Never had any need to drive west of Alpha, yet.

The really sad thing at KAPA is their catering to the rich d-bags in the jets who think they're entitled to privacy at a public airport.

They've required *some*, but not all, of the regular photographers who like to stand just outside the airport fences in a few choice spots, to get both background checks and airport credentials.

It's better than banning them altogether, but it's a d-bag move, intended to stop photos with visible tail numbers of corporate aircraft from being posted to the Internet. They hide behind the "security" excuse and whisper "TSA" lovingly in the public ear to rationalize it.

The inconsistency is flat discrimination, and they'd lose if pushed on that one, but they'd just ban everyone if someone pushed that legitimate case, so the few folks who've been caught in that BS have simply played along.

At least they didn't charge the photogs for the background check.

I'd bet my left nut the two biggest whiners are the Denver Broncos and Liberty Media, although Liberty keeps their planes way down at the south ramp away from the riff raff.
 
to the OP, you were in the wrong, but the guy didn't have to be a dick about it, especially since no harm was done.
 
rbridges said:
to the OP, you were in the wrong, but the guy didn't have to be a dick about it, especially since no harm was done.
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Yes he did! It gave him a woody because for that instant in life he got to be the HFMIC. And, for his entire life, he'd never been the HFMIC and desperately wanted/needed to be.

6PC allowed his life to have meaning. I'm sure he'll be telling his grand kids the story in 30 years. In the meantime he'll be telling every coworker about it...repeatedly...every day!

:rofl:
 
timwinters said:
Yes he did! It gave him a woody because for that instant in life he got to be the HFMIC. And, for his entire life, he'd never been the HFMIC and desperately wanted/needed to be.

6PC allowed his life to have meaning. I'm sure he'll be telling his grand kids the story in 30 years. In the meantime he'll be telling every coworker about it...repeatedly...every day!

:rofl:
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Perfect.
 
During an incentive flight in a C-17 to Edwards AFB, they told us in no uncertain terms to not go over the line on the apron or else we'd get M-16's to our head within seconds :hairraise:
 
overdrive148 said:
During an incentive flight in a C-17 to Edwards AFB, they told us in no uncertain terms to not go over the line on the apron or else we'd get M-16's to our head within seconds :hairraise:
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The "Red Line" deals with restricted aircraft parking areas and has nothing to do with the movement area.
 
Yeah, you need a radio and clearance from the tower to enter the movement area, and yeah, you ran into an ******* who was such a kook that when he applied to be a cop, they rejected him. Probably 4Fd from military service as well. Working the airport security was the most power he'll ever see so he's gonna make the most of it. Just forget it and pity his sad life.
 
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