Waiver Release Form

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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Over the weekend while having dinner with my niece who is newly minted JD (lawyer) she brought something up I never put much thought to and that is "do you have a waiver or a release of liability for people you take flying to protect yourself?"

Got me thinking that this may not be such a bad idea given the litigious society in we're in now of days, and the fact the fact that "when it comes to money... people get funny..."

Thoughts?
 
How far do you want to take this? Have waivers for folks that join you on the boat for a day of fishing or water skiing? Join you in your backyard for a BBQ that might fall off the deck, poke themselves with a steak knife, or eat a bad batch of potato salad?

I get what the niece is saying, but it really kills the excitement for the first time flyer to have to sign something before you let them in The aircraft.

Summary... I don't ask for this. But I do apply all reasonable risk management tools/tactics to reduce the need for it. (Including making sure that's blue kool aid in the fake Gatts Jar when flying with @SixPapaCharlie )
 
Remember that, in general, even the best "waiver" only applies to the person signing it. Family members/etc. are not bound by that person's agreement with you. So, if something happened to that person, their spouse or children could still sue you just as well. And, generally, if something happens, the family members' actions are the ones you need to be concerned about.

IANAL.
 
RussR said:
Remember that, in general, even the best "waiver" only applies to the person signing it. Family members/etc. are not bound by that person's agreement with you.
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Depends on the state. In my state, the family member's claims are derivative, and such claims can be waived or limited by the injured's/decedent's executed waiver.

RussR said:
So, if something happened to that person, their spouse or children could still sue you just as well.
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True. Just takes a couple hundred bucks and a piece of paper (and not even the paper in a lot of jurisdictions, now-a-days) to file suit.
 
RussR said:
Remember that, in general, even the best "waiver" only applies to the person signing it. Family members/etc. are not bound by that person's agreement with you. So, if something happened to that person, their spouse or children could still sue you just as well. And, generally, if something happens, the family members' actions are the ones you need to be concerned about.

IANAL.
Click to expand...

I actually brought this up... that is a waiver is only a piece of paper... She said that you can put a in clause stating "I waive any and all claims that I, my estate, heirs, executors, etc... may have now or in the future...
 
Ventucky Red said:
Over the weekend while having dinner with my niece who is newly minted JD (lawyer) she brought something up I never put much thought to and that is "do you have a waiver or a release of liability for people you take flying to protect yourself?"

Got me thinking that this may not be such a bad idea given the litigious society in we're in now of days, and the fact the fact that "when it comes to money... people get funny..."

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Here's your answer: "newly minted JD"
 
AggieMike88 said:
How far do you want to take this? Have waivers for folks that join you on the boat for a day of fishing or water skiing? Join you in your backyard for a BBQ that might fall off the deck, poke themselves with a steak knife, or eat a bad batch of potato salad?
Click to expand...

I also sail high performance catamarans.... she said I should have one for this too as this and flying is considered "risky behavior."
 
Ventucky Red said:
I actually brought this up... that is a waiver is only a piece of paper... She said that you can put a in clause stating "I waive any and all claims that I, my estate, heirs, executors, etc... may have now or in the future...
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Holy cow, did she pass with all "Cs" ? You can't waive the rights of someone else, no matter what your "contract" says.
 
Ventucky Red said:
I also sail high performance catamarans.... she said I should have one for this too as this and flying is considered "risky behavior."
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Solo or with others on your crew? If you own the catamaran, would you require the crew members to sign?
 
Yep. It is true.
There are too many damn lawyers.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Solo or with others on your crew? If you own the catamaran, would you require the crew members to sign?
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I have a one crew and we have been racing together since the beginning of time either on his boat or mine... I don't think I have to worry about this one as we both have beat the "BEEP" out of each other...
 
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Yes, consult your attorney in YOUR state, but if I was that concerned, I'd just form an LLC, or similar to shield be from as much liability as possible, but I am not an attorney, so......
 
Anthony said:
Yes, consult your attorney in YOUR state, but if I was that concerned, I'd just form an LLC, or similar to shield be from as much liability as possible, but I am not an attorney, so......
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That won't protect you from liability for you actions as the pilot.
 
Anthony said:
Yes, consult your attorney in YOUR state, but if I was that concerned, I'd just form an LLC, or similar to shield be from as much liability as possible, but I am not an attorney, so......
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LLC is worthless in this situation.
 
paflyer said:
Really? Name one.
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Indiana. As explained above, the claims of the family members or the estate, are derivative claims, and are absolutely subject to being waived.
 
PPC1052 said:
That won't protect you from liability for you actions as the pilot.
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Again, not an attorney, but wouldn't it limit the liability to corporate, and NOT personal assets? So, the individual can now go after both corporate, and personal assets if the plane is owned by an LLC?
 
Anthony said:
Again, not an attorney, but wouldn't it limit the liability to corporate, and NOT personal assets? So, the individual can now go after both corporate, and personal assets if the plane is owned by an LLC?
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If you pilot the plane yourself, there is no way to preclude the injured from suing only the LLC and not you. And yes, they can go after the corporate and your personal assets in that case to satisfy the judgment if they get a judgment against both.
 
PPC1052 said:
If you pilot the plane yourself, there is no way to preclude the injured from suing only the LLC and not you. And yes, they can go after the corporate and your personal assets in that case to satisfy the judgment if they get a judgment against both.
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Anybody can sue for anything, but would there have to be some type of negligence on the pilot's behalf? Separately, I've heard judges throwing out signed "waivers", and that they are "not worth the paper they are written on". Again, hearsay, and I am sure it varies state by state, or maybe even judge by judge. So what legal mechanism can you use to shield personal assets? Yes, insurance can mitigate some of the risk, I know.
 
I don't live my life in fear like that, and I don't just take any random person flying.
 
Anthony said:
Anybody can sue for anything, but would there have to be some type of negligence on the pilot's behalf?
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Yes, they would have to show that you were negligent (or committed some other type of tort.) They would have to prove their case against you. But nothing prevents them from trying to do so just because you have an LLC.
 
paflyer said:
You can't exclude a third party from legal action because the first and second parties made a contract.
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But isn't this the same as saying "sure you can sue me, but this little piece of paper says you really not going to get anything?
 
Ventucky Red said:
Over the weekend while having dinner with my niece who is newly minted JD (lawyer) she brought something up I never put much thought to and that is "do you have a waiver or a release of liability for people you take flying to protect yourself?"

Got me thinking that this may not be such a bad idea given the litigious society in we're in now of days, and the fact the fact that "when it comes to money... people get funny..."
Click to expand...

Nothing against your niece, but sounds like new graduate syndrome. Because I am a new graduate people will listen to me and the world will change...:rolleyes::) I am sure people thought that of me.

I saw that a lot in Alaska. New pilots will come in and say I will change how these (native) peoples live and show them better ways even though this is how they have lived for 10,000 years.
 
newly minted lawyers have a lot to learn.

Airplane crashes are legal definition basically gross negligence - so a release is worthless.
 
Ventucky Red said:
"do you have a waiver or a release of liability for people you take flying to protect yourself?"
Click to expand...

You should have aviation insurance that covers those in the plane and on the ground. It's not possible for you to alleviate risk to them anyway other than to fly as safely as you can.
 
PPC1052 said:
Indiana. As explained above, the claims of the family members or the estate, are derivative claims, and are absolutely subject to being waived.
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I'd sure like a cite. That's very interesting.
 
citizen5000 said:
So you are saying as long as you crash in Indiana you need a waiver? Please.
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I'm not saying anything. I questioned the legality of two people agreeing not to litigate under certain circumstances and one/both of the parties become immune from any third party actions due to a release agreed to by one of the parties.
 
Zeldman said:
Nothing against your niece, but sounds like new graduate syndrome. Because I am a new graduate people will listen to me and the world will change...:rolleyes::) I am sure people thought that of me.

I saw that a lot in Alaska. New pilots will come in and say I will change how these (native) peoples live and show them better ways even though this is how they have lived for 10,000 years.
Click to expand...

Off topic a bit but I remember reading an analogy of that (bit different) involving a guy that picks coconuts for a living. Can't remember it entirely, but goes something like this:

Salesperson walks up to a guy on a beach who is picking coconuts and selling them for cash.
Salesperson says, you know I can show you a better way to do that that is faster and makes you more money
Guy says oh yeah?
Salesperson says yeah, first you hire a team to pick them, a team to catch them and a team to sell them
Once you get that established you need a team to grow more trees, etc.
And once you're all done, you can let the team work while you sit on the beach relaxing.
Guy says, I'm already sitting on the beach relaxing.

Point is, why make something more complicated then it needs to be?
 
Ventucky Red said:
I also sail high performance catamarans.... she said I should have one for this too as this and flying is considered "risky behavior."
Click to expand...
I think I should have had my friend sign a waiver before riding in my car to the airport yesterday instead. The risk is much higher. (actually, we almost got taken out by a blonde in a mamavan)

JOhnH said:
Yep. It is true.
There are too many damn lawyers.
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Can we please please please open season on useless ambulance-chasing lawyers?

paflyer said:
You can't exclude a third party from legal action because the first and second parties made a contract.
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I wonder whether giving a waiver to the passengers and asking all their family members to sign would fix the glitch?
Serious question.
 
BigBadLou said:
I wonder whether giving a waiver to the passengers and asking all their family members to sign would fix the glitch?
Serious question.
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I guess if you have to go though all that, do you really want that person on your plane? And there's no guarantee that you're going to get all possible litigants to agree.
 
Zeldman said:
I am curious, can you expand on this a little?
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The LLC wouldn't protect against liability if you're the one flying at the time of accident. It would only protect you if someone else was flying the airplane at the time of accident that isn't an owner in the airplane. In others words, the LLC is designed to protect the owner against any debts and liabilities incurred by the business, but it will not cover the owners or managers of the business.


At least that's how most LLC's work.
 
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I have an umbrella policy for everything else - we have a small measure of liability insurance for passengers in our club plane; it's not much; then again, I rarely, rarely, take a pax along, and that's usually a CFI or family.
 
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