Voepass Flight 2283, a large passenger plane, crashes in Vinhedo, Brazil

There's a second video that was really close
 
What would cause a flat spin like that? Icing? Engine out?
 
SD in the clouds? Tail icing?

The videos all start after it's out of clouds but could have started earlier.
 
Horrific experience for those onboard. In the closer vid from post #6, is that a broken prop sound? I thought there was a helicopter nearby at first, but then the silence came:(. Kinda sounds like one prop is full power and one is not.
 
Yikes. Awful. The ADS-B path shows it started a normal descent, then started climbing and abruptly slowing, followed by a near-vertical descent, as correlated by the video.

Accident was at about 1622z

SBKP 091600Z 02008KT CAVOK 17/15 Q1020
SBKP 091700Z 01007KT 4000 -RA BR FEW033 17/15 Q1019

TAF SBKP 090845Z 0912/1012 20005KT CAVOK TX22/0917Z TN14/1009Z
BECMG 0912/0914 27007KT BKN030
BECMG 0916/0918 8000 BKN020
BECMG 0921/0923 22005KT 6000 BKN017
TEMPO 1000/1006 18010KT 5000 SHRA BR BKN020 FEW030TCU
PROB30 1007/1012 4000 RA BR BKN015 RMK PGH
 
I copped this from X, don't know if it's genuine, but matches other stuff.
1723232083671.png
 
Here’s the 12Z sounding:

1723232232962.jpeg

You can see the freezing level is about 650mb, which was about 12300’ at that time. 17000’ was the initial altitude, which is about 540mb and right at the top of that layer of zero T/D delta, at about -6°C.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I copped this from X, don't know if it's genuine, but matches other stuff.
View attachment 132299
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Wow. Those speed excursions are something else, especially for a constant-altitude, straight-line flight. Either it’s a data error, or they were dealing with some ridiculous icing conditions (or other mechanical issues, but I kind of doubt it).
 
Anyone else notice that it was 17k ft until it crossed the center line of the approach runway at the time? Then seems to dive/stall rather quickly from 17k-2k (over 10kft/min descent).

Odd that they would have flown to that fix still 15k over the airport. Nothing like any of the previous approaches flown on the same route.
 
dottat said:
Anyone else notice that it was 17k ft until it crossed the center line of the approach runway at the time? Then seems to dive/stall rather quickly from 17k-2k (over 10kft/min descent).

Odd that they would have flown to that fix still 15k over the airport. Nothing like any of the previous approaches flown on the same route.
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Guarulhos was landing opposite direction, on the 28s at the time. The EVRAL arrivals all have a minimum alt of FL170 at GR251, which is a few miles to the west of SBKP.

That said, the min alt at the waypoints prior to that are FL220 and FL190 (right about where they crashed), etc. So I doubt they were descend via. But they absolutely had been tracking along the lateral portion from BUXUK to EVRAL, then apparently vectored off prior to the crash.

Either way, I’m saying that for a downwind arrival, FL170 doesn’t seem to be abnormal in that area, and there was quite a bit of crossing traffic lower, specifically GLO1455 descending through 15,000 just about right under them, and TAM3230 level at 15,000 and crossing 2 miles ahead. They started the fatal descent about a minute after GLO crossed under and slightly behind them.
 
Saw this pic apparently from inside on Reddit.
Not sure what it even represents.
 

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benyflyguy said:
Saw this pic apparently from inside on Reddit.
Not sure what it even represents.
Click to expand...

May be from a different incident today. South Sudan, no one died. Possibly ran long on take-off and left the wheels behind.

"Renegade Air/UN Dash 8-300 crashes on landing at Malakal Airport in South Sudan after the main gear came off on departure from Maban. All 35 passengers and 3 crew members on board evacuated safely."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821906203112267856
 
Dave Theisen said:
I had heard they asked for lower due to icing and where denied by ATC.
Click to expand...

I had ATC deny me lower once because of ice. I said “Well, I don’t want to go down either, but I don’t have much choice. I can declare an emergency if you want.”

IMG_6586.jpeg
IMG_6592.jpeg
IMG_6603.jpeg

Note how the boots are clean, but the unprotected surfaces behind them are VERY not clean. I quit taking pictures when the tail started shaking…
 
That is some ugly icing. The ice below the wing adds weight and drag, but the real danger is ice on top of the wing that kills lift, and you cant see that from the pictures. Looks like a close call. Caravan, I assume?
 
Were they on autopilot? The speed changes with the constant altitude is scary looking, but the altitude is constant. In icing?
 
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Rockymountain said:
That is some ugly icing. The ice below the wing adds weight and drag, but the real danger is ice on top of the wing that kills lift, and you cant see that from the pictures. Looks like a close call. Caravan, I assume?
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That’s the first time I’ve heard that. I would assume that any ice on the airfoil will affect the lift. It’s pretty amazing that the plane will blow through redline (175knots) no problem at about 85% power. I was at 100% power and 115 knots descending at about 300fpm. It was a 950HP Garrett Supervan.
 
Apropos of nothing, do we really need "Juan Brown" to say it, for people to know that? It's truly scary that there are an entire class of pilots out there so obsequious to ATC, they rather watch themselves die before exercising a modicum of self-preservation and vacate altitudes/headings/airspeeds on their own recognizance. I know myself enough to know I don't want to deal with being an SIC in an environment where i'd have to cede to people who resemble the remark; I wouldn't last long at that job. People can do stupid pilot tricks on their own time, but they ain't taking me with them after all I've done so far in my career to come home alive.

Tell ATC? sure, I consider myself a corteous man in most instances. Asking/bargaining with ATC? hell naw.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
Apropos of nothing, do we really need "Juan Brown" to say it, for people to know that? It's truly scary that there are an entire class of pilots out there so obsequious to ATC, they rather watch themselves die before execrising a modicum of self-preservation and vacate altitudes/headings/airspeeds on their own recognizance. I know myself enough to know I don't want to deal with being an SIC in an environment where i'd have to cede to people who resemble the remark; I wouldn't last long at that job. People can do stupid pilot tricks on their own time, but they ain't taking me with them after all I've done so far in my career to come home alive.

Tell ATC? sure, I consider myself a corteous man in most instances. Asking/bargaining with ATC? hell naw.
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Yep ... give me a number to call, chew me a new one, whatever, but I'm gonna do what I need to do to keep me and my passengers alive and no, this is not a request ...
 
So... one more thing to consider.

Brazilian ATC is run by the military, and from past incidents/accidents in that area it looks like you can get into a lot of trouble if you deviate from their instructions.
That might explain the crew's actions.

canso.org

DECEA - CANSO

DECEA - CANSO Member
canso.org canso.org
 
AV8R_87 said:
So... one more thing to consider.

Brazilian ATC is run by the military, and from past incidents/accidents in that area it looks like you can get into a lot of trouble if you deviate from their instructions.
That might explain the crew's actions.

canso.org

DECEA - CANSO

DECEA - CANSO Member
canso.org canso.org
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Well, death or “a lot of trouble” …. decisions, decisions….
 
Easy after the fact.
When an ATC deviation gets you into a very likely loss of job situation, you might tend to minimize the danger that your current icing situation poses.
I'm not saying it's the correct decision, but they did operate in an environment that is not your typical FAA-land.
 
So first it was brazilians will shoot you out of the sky. Since that claim is easily-falsibiable nonsense about their internal airspace control, now we're on to employers are quick to fire you down there. That's a lot of DME-arcing just to igonre occam: They got complacent about icing on their own volition, probably as a function of their own aggregate inexperience with icing, and their pax paid for it.

What I find more interesting is why is conceding pilot error always such a seizure-inducing affair for people on here? Is it a karmic fear about speaking uncharitably of the dead? Legit curious.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Because there's more to this swiss cheese model than just "the pilot f'ed up".
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Maybe...but it could be just that. At this point, not seeing anything that would point to other than severe icing, failure of pilots to recognize or execute checklist in time, LOC, unrecoverable flat spin.
 
Does anyone know at what altitude the plane exited the clouds? It's important because it gives us a sense of how long they had to get out of the spin.

The video is painful to watch because the spin remains flat throughout, and no apparent effort is made to get out of it (stick in center, push forward, and opposite rudder).

I also fly sailplanes and this recovery sequence is second nature to me.

Are airline pilots not trained for this simple maneuver? The Air France accident over the ocean in Brazil also hit the water with a flat spin. In this case they didn't trust their airspeed. Maybe the pilots in this accident refused to believe an airspeed of 20 kts too. GPS speed would be a clue.

Condolences to the families.
 
Himayeti said:
Does anyone know at what altitude the plane exited the clouds? It's important because it gives us a sense of how long they had to get out of the spin.

The video is painful to watch because the spin remains flat throughout, and no apparent effort is made to get out of it (stick in center, push forward, and opposite rudder).

I also fly sailplanes and this recovery sequence is second nature to me.

Are airline pilots not trained for this simple maneuver? The Air France accident over the ocean in Brazil also hit the water with a flat spin. In this case they didn't trust their airspeed. Maybe the pilots in this accident refused to believe an airspeed of 20 kts too. GPS speed would be a clue.

Condolences to the families.
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I believe a plane like ATR 72 may actually not be recoverable in certain spin scenarios ( depending on COG configuration ) ….
 
I don’t think anyone can say at this point that there was no effort get out of it. All we see is a video of it in a flat spin. What percentage of heavy turboprops are certified to recover from a flat spin? Probably none.
 
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