Visiting Nordic Countries (Norway/Sweden/Finland)

[weilke]

In the US I have not yet run into a merchant that does anything but swipe the cards/just like the non-chip cards. I was at CVS a week or so ago and they hade the chip-type terminal but when I went to insert my card the clerk said that part wasn't working and told me to just swipe.

I just picked up some stuff at walgreens. When I swiped my card, the terminal instructed me to insert it into the chip reader. It didn't require a signature or PIN but it had to read the chip to get the approval.

The Europeans are quite puzzled that the USA is so far behind in card technology.

In europe, we had something called 'EC card' since the late 60s. This was a system of guaranteed checks and merged into an electronic payment system (now known as maestro). In addition to payment card functionality, these cards also act as universal ATM cards. They had transitioned to a chip & PIN system in the 90s.

 

[olasek]

The Europeans are quite puzzled that the USA is so far behind in card technology.

Just returned from 6 weeks in Europe. They could be puzzled by our credit cards I am on the other hand puzzled by archaic way they handle tips in restaurants - try to put tip on the card - some, if they allow you, will stand right above you and ask you to spell exactly how much tip you want to leave so they can punch it into their hand-held card reader, so silly. I am not going get into public toilets (specially bad in France), no wonder there are signs on buildings (don't pi** here) because public toilets are inadequate.

Flew on Norwegian - that was a highlight, premium plus on 787 all the way from KOAK to Oslo, quite affordable. Considering how expensive Norway was it wasn't on my itinerary, had 6 hours in Oslo but was told it would be nearly $100 for two round trip train tickets from the airport to downtown.

Car rental in Europe on the other hand I found very affordable. C class Mercedes diesel with GPS and all options for around $55 a day - pretty good.

 

[weilke]

They could be puzzled by our credit cards I am on the other hand puzzled by archaic way they handle tips in restaurants - try to put tip on the card - some, if they allow you, will stand right above you and ask you to spell exactly how much tip you want to leave so they can punch it into their hand-held card reader, so silly.

Why silly ? This way you sign the receipt with the actual amount of tip hard-coded and there is no way for the server or the manager to manipulate the transaction later.

It is just a continuation how tips are handled in cash transactions. You hand the server the cash and tell him or her how much change to give you. Just a historically different system.

Considering how expensive Norway was it wasn't on my itinerary, had 6 hours in Oslo but was told it would be nearly $100 for two round trip train tickets from the airport to downtown.

The Oslo airport used to be in Fornebu, a short cab ride from downtown. The airport was on a peninsula with both approaches over water. Gardemoen, the new airport, is quite some way from the city (wiki says 22mi).

 

[JGoodish]

Walmart, Target, Home Depot, and Walgreens are some of the big retailers who are accepting chip card transactions here in the U.S. I don't know if all of them are forcing it, but I know from personal experience that Target will force a chip transaction if you try to swipe a chip card.

The U.S. banks appear to be blaming consumers for why they aren't pushing chip-and-PIN, but it seems like many of the banks are dragging their feet issuing chip cards. Consumers in the U.S. have been using ATM cards with PINs for decades, so the biggest change with chip cards is how the transaction is handled (have to leave the card in the machine during the transaction), which is the same whether a PIN is entered or not.

As for the trip, it sounds as though we can't go wrong with any of the aforementioned countries. We may have to split Iceland into its own trip, though, depending on how long we plan to be away. Norwegian Air on the 787 sounds like a good way to travel.


JKG

 

[olasek]

Why silly ?.

No privacy. I want to be left alone to decide what tip to leave instead of having to advertise it up front - the same privacy if I leave cash on the table after bill is settled. Never had problem that someone would 'manipulate' my credit card tip later.

 

[weilke]

No privacy. I want to be left alone to decide what tip to leave instead of having to advertise it up front - the same privacy if I leave cash on the table after bill is settled. Never had problem that someone would 'manipulate' my credit card tip later.

Nobody cares whether you leave 5 or 10 kroner as tip, really.

The 'leaving money on the table' thing is perceived as disrespectful in many places, also it makes it quite likely that the busboy pockets it rather than the waitress who provided the service.

Altering tips is one of the more common forms of credit card fraud. The waitresses know that few people reconcile their credit card statement these days and that altering a tip from 10 to 20% has a low chance of getting detected. Now that most terminals dont use duplication paper to print the receipts, it is near impossible to prove an altered receipt.

 

[mtuomi]

The tipping process is so archaic because tipping is not the norm.
This is changing though, most new POS systems allow you to adjust the tip when you accept the charge amount.

 

[olasek]

The 'leaving money on the table' thing is perceived as disrespectful in many places,

According to my observation leaving money on the table is still the predominant way of tipping in the countries I visited (France, Switzerland, Italy, Poland). I witnessed one case in France when a client did not leave any tip on the table after he was told he can't leave tip on a card.

The tipping process is so archaic because tipping is not the norm.

Yeah, there is something to it.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Just returned from 6 weeks in Europe. They could be puzzled by our credit cards I am on the other hand puzzled by archaic way they handle tips in restaurants - try to put tip on the card - some, if they allow you, will stand right above you and ask you to spell exactly how much tip you want to leave so they can punch it into their hand-held card reader, so silly. I am not going get into public toilets (specially bad in France), no wonder there are signs on buildings (don't pi** here) because public toilets are inadequate.

We learned about tipping in Mannheim, Germany a couple of weeks ago. We were out to dinner with a pilot friend from Trier, and I picked up the tab. I tipped my customary 15% for adequate service, and I thought the waitress was going to start crying with gratitude.

After she left, Mary and I had a "WTF?" look on our faces. Our friend chuckled and said "We usually round up to the nearest Euro. That's probably the biggest tip she's ever seen."

This started 14 days of fantastic food, and appalling service, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and itty-bitty Lichtenstein. If you want to see the inevitable result of paying wait staff a "living wage", try to get a second cup of coffee in Europe. Because tipping is minimal, and wages are relatively high, there is little incentive to provide what we would regard as normal service.

Someone else mentioned buying food in the local markets. This is a GREAT idea, as you get to sample the local foodstuff without the aggravation. We had some of our most memorable meals in these markets.

No one has mentioned using an organized tour group. We used Go Ahead Tours this time, and Smolka Tours in 2008, and we were very happy with both. It truly is wonderful to not have to think at all about driving or scheduling -- you just hop on the bus and let the tour people deal with all the B.S. We had plenty of free time, so it never became oppressive, and our guides were fantastic.

Here's one for Scandinavia that sounds fun: http://www.goaheadtours.com/sca/scandinavia-the-capitals-to-the-fjords

Re: Public toilets. Austria is the only place we've been that subsidizes housing, but charges to pee. Most public toilets were between .50 and .80 Euros.

 

[mtuomi]

This started 14 days of fantastic food, and appalling service, in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and itty-bitty Lichtenstein. If you want to see the inevitable result of paying wait staff a "living wage", try to get a second cup of coffee in Europe. Because tipping is minimal, and wages are relatively high, there is little incentive to provide what we would regard as normal service.

Someone else mentioned buying food in the local markets. This is a GREAT idea, as you get to sample the local foodstuff without the aggravation. We had some of our most memorable meals in these markets.

No one has mentioned using an organized tour group. We used Go Ahead Tours this time, and Smolka Tours in 2008, and we were very happy with both. It truly is wonderful to not have to think at all about driving or scheduling -- you just hop on the bus and let the tour people deal with all the B.S. We had plenty of free time, so it never became oppressive, and our guides were fantastic.

When you know how things work in Europe, getting the second cup is not a problem. It is just a different culture, you don't wait for someone to ask you, it's done differently. Absolutely no problem when you know what to do, just a different system.

I'm not going to say my opinion about organized tours, it will not be complimentary. But then again, I know the system so I see it from a different perspective.

 

[weilke]

We learned about tipping in Mannheim, Germany a couple of weeks ago. We were out to dinner with a pilot friend from Trier, and I picked up the tab. I tipped my customary 15% for adequate service, and I thought the waitress was going to start crying with gratitude.

After she left, Mary and I had a "WTF?" look on our faces. Our friend chuckled and said "We usually round up to the nearest Euro. That's probably the biggest tip she's ever seen."

The typical payscale for waitstaff is 9-12% of food and liquor and is already included in the posted price. Tips are on top of that and generally lower, round up to the next number or maybe 5%. In the end, a good waiter gets about the same cut as in the US, the difference is that he gets more of it on his paycheck and less in cash. Giving a 20% tip and then complaining that 'everything is so expensive' in europe is not really different from the euro tourists who come to the US and dont tip at all because they think service is included in the price.

 

[jsstevens]

[snip]
No one has mentioned using an organized tour group. We used Go Ahead Tours this time, and Smolka Tours in 2008, and we were very happy with both. It truly is wonderful to not have to think at all about driving or scheduling -- you just hop on the bus and let the tour people deal with all the B.S. We had plenty of free time, so it never became oppressive, and our guides were fantastic.

Here's one for Scandinavia that sounds fun: http://www.goaheadtours.com/sca/scandinavia-the-capitals-to-the-fjords
[snip]

Hmm. This is interesting because I feel about organized tours the way you feel about chain hotels. I want to explore not be herded. I'd much rather be able to stay longer or leave sooner (frankly, its usually stay longer) and make my own itinerary.

Anyway, just an interesting data point.

John

 

[Jay Honeck]

Hmm. This is interesting because I feel about organized tours the way you feel about chain hotels. I want to explore not be herded. I'd much rather be able to stay longer or leave sooner (frankly, its usually stay longer) and make my own itinerary.

Anyway, just an interesting data point.

John

I hear you, and the tours are probably not necessary for the seasoned traveller. Now that we've got a good overview of the area, our next trip to Germany will probably be by train.

However, a tour was the perfect venue for people like Mary and me, with:

1. Poor foreign language skills.
2. Not enough time to do everything we want to do.
3. Fairly undisciplined.

This was our first 2-week vacation since 1988, and we were celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary. We didn't want to spend it sleeping late and drinking -- we wanted to see things! The tour gave us the backbone discipline we needed to get our rears in gear and out the door, and -- as a result -- we saw an incredible number of historic and wonderful things. Had we been left to our own devices, I doubt we would have made it to 40% of the places we visited, both due to inherent laziness, and to the fact that the local tour guides showed us things "off the beaten trail" that we never would have found on our own.

It also helped that we had friends in Mannheim, Salzburg, Vienna and London. This allowed us to split off from the tour and spend time with them, so we never really felt "trapped" in the tour. Our best day was getting utterly lost in Vienna, on foot, and bar-hopping our way back to the hotel.

Well, and Oktoberfest was fun, too.

My recommendation is to to use a tour, and split off whenever you want. This gives you the best of both worlds.

 

[mtuomi]

The idea of a guided tour makes me physically sick

Back to the Nordic countries, over there, I would avoid them like cancer.
You will not see anything "off the beaten trail", some guides are good on making the traps sound like they are something special. They are not. I've never seen any guided tours in any of the "off the beaten trail" spots.

 

[mtuomi]

3. Fairly undisciplined.

This really is the only reason to use guided tours. It gives you a schedule, but you are missing out on so much if you rely on those.

 

[mtuomi]

Hmm. This is interesting because I feel about organized tours the way you feel about chain hotels. I want to explore not be herded. I'd much rather be able to stay longer or leave sooner (frankly, its usually stay longer) and make my own itinerary.

Anyway, just an interesting data point.

John

Asking the locals usually gives you a much better itinerary than going on a guided tour.

In Nordic countries, there is no real language barrier, and pretty often you also get company if you ask where to go

 

[Jay Honeck]

This really is the only reason to use guided tours. It gives you a schedule, but you are missing out on so much if you rely on those.

You're probably right. But a man's got to know his limitations.

 

[jsstevens]

You're probably right. But a man's got to know his limitations.

Well if getting up and out the door is an issue, ok. But boy, my wife and went like crazy in Sweden. (And, as has been said, there's really no language barrier there.)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[weilke]

Hmm. This is interesting because I feel about organized tours the way you feel about chain hotels. I want to explore not be herded. I'd much rather be able to stay longer or leave sooner (frankly, its usually stay longer) and make my own itinerary.

You also dont end up in the tourist-trap restaurants that purchase a steady stream of customers by paying kickbacks to the guides.

I dont see a language barrier in the nordic countries. Anyone under the age of 70 is going to either speak english or he will have access to someone who does.

 

[mtuomi]

oh, to the OP: when you get things booked up etc, let me know when you are in Finland/Estonia, I'll either meet up with you or I can arrange all the good stuff for you.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I could never imagine taking a McTour to see all the pre-cooked activities.

And, for "discipline", most of Europe does not matter what time you start your day, there is plenty to do into the evenings and night.

Spent a month there this spring with a backpack, Eurail Pass, and a smartphone that had AirBnB and TripAdvisor apps loaded. Saw parts of Europe that never would have been found on a canned "McTour". Ate at places that no hotel concierge would ever suggest, due to lack of kickbacks, and found plenty to do.

Some days started at 6am, some days started at noon.

And, did I mention how beautiful the women in Denmark were?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Asking the locals usually gives you a much better itinerary than going on a guided tour.

One of the things we really liked about Go Ahead Tours was that our guides were locals. Our main guide lived in Heidelburg, and was able to give us great insight into the area.

Then, at each individual point of interest, they provided specialized guides who also lived in the area. Our guide in Salzburg, for example, lived there, as did the ones in Munich, Lucerne, Vienna, and Innsbruck.

Because of this, we received info and guidance that we, on our own, would never have received. This proved indispensable, and -- short of hiring local guides everywhere we went -- I have no idea how else we would have ever received any of it.

Between this, and not having to drive anywhere for two weeks, it was a wonderful experience. We will use them again in 2017, when we explore France and Italy.

 

[mtuomi]

One of the things we really liked about Go Ahead Tours was that our guides were locals. Our main guide lived in Heidelburg, and was able to give us great insight into the area.

Then, at each individual point of interest, they provided specialized guides who also lived in the area. Our guide in Salzburg, for example, lived there, as did the ones in Munich, Lucerne, Vienna, and Innsbruck.

Because of this, we received info and guidance that we, on our own, would never have received. This proved indispensable, and -- short of hiring local guides everywhere we went -- I have no idea how else we would have ever received any of it.

Between this, and not having to drive anywhere for two weeks, it was a wonderful experience. We will use them again in 2017, when we explore France and Italy.

I'm pretty sure any tour anywhere gets you guides that live locally. Who would commute to be a guide?

I'm glad you were happy with them. Knowing what the "cool spots" are is highly subjective. Most tour groups show you places and recommend restaurants that give them kickbacks, but if you were happy with them, well, thats all good

In Nordic countries which this topic was about, I would avoid them as much as I can. I've been around those countries enough to know how crap they all are.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I'm glad you were happy with them. Knowing what the "cool spots" are is highly subjective. Most tour groups show you places and recommend restaurants that give them kickbacks, but if you were happy with them, well, thats all good

The way it worked out, about half the dinners were organized and included, while the other half were "on your own". We had a lot of fun, finding the local places.

Maybe Go Ahead got a kickback on the organized dinners, but we were never disappointed in the food. The service was uniformly mediocre-to-terrible, no matter where we went, but the food was amazing. Even walking an estimated 90 miles, I managed to gain 10 pounds in 14 days!

 

[airdale]

I think there is a little bit of ambiguity here. What does "organized" mean?

1) One can hire a company to arrange a private tour, escorted or unescorted. Depending on the company, these can be customized to various degrees or might canned, homogenized, and pasteurized. It takes some effort, but we often try to find an in-country agent who will completely customize an itinerary for us, including transportation and guides. Sometimes we will have a guide travel with us. It is a great, though somewhat expensive, way to travel.

2) One can sign up for a group tour.

• They are cheap.
• They are time-inefficient; there is always someone who is late to the bus. All meals are stretched to the time taken by the slowest and most inconsiderate group member.
• They often miss worthwhile places that are too small to take a group. St. Basil's on Red Square, for example, is really a collection of small chapels. I doubt that many groups attempt it.
• All meals are taken in restaurants that are set up for herd feeding, often hotels, and are usually served buffet style -- comprising foods whose main talent is being able to survive for hours in a heated pan.
• Food is lowest-common-denominator, designed to suit the flavor-shy and unadventurous.
• Personal interaction with locals and guides is nonexistent.
• Accommodations, like food, are lowest common denominator --- hotels that attempt to be no significantly different from those you can rent in your home town.
• Attractions are served up on a schedule, whether you (or anybody else) have any interest or not.
• Even the tiniest bit of flexibility, like stopping on the road to take a photo, is unavailable.
• Tourist shops that pay commissions to guides are the most important stops on the trip and can neither be avoided nor reduced in time.

Sometimes group tours are unavoidable. For instance, to Antarctica and to the Galapagos. But that is the only reason I can imagine for willingly subjecting oneself to them

 

[weilke]

2) One can sign up for a group tour.

• They are cheap.
• They are time-inefficient; there is always someone who is late to the bus. All meals are stretched to the time taken by the slowest and most inconsiderate group member.
• They often miss worthwhile places that are too small to take a group. St. Basil's on Red Square, for example, is really a collection of small chapels. I doubt that many groups attempt it.
• All meals are taken in restaurants that are set up for herd feeding, often hotels, and are usually served buffet style -- comprising foods whose main talent is being able to survive for hours in a heated pan.
• Food is lowest-common-denominator, designed to suit the flavor-shy and unadventurous.
• Personal interaction with locals and guides is nonexistent.
• Accommodations, like food, are lowest common denominator --- hotels that attempt to be no significantly different from those you can rent in your home town.
• Attractions are served up on a schedule, whether you (or anybody else) have any interest or not.
• Even the tiniest bit of flexibility, like stopping on the road to take a photo, is unavailable.
• Tourist shops that pay commissions to guides are the most important stops on the trip and can neither be avoided nor reduced in time.

'Its wednesday, so this must be italy'.

Sometimes group tours are unavoidable. For instance, to Antarctica and to the Galapagos. But that is the only reason I can imagine for willingly subjecting oneself to them

I would add places like Myanmar to that and other places where there is simply no infrastructure that caters to the tourist and where language barriers can make things difficult.

 

[airdale]

I would add places like Myanmar to that and other places where there is simply no infrastructure that caters to the tourist and where language barriers can make things difficult.

In my experience, there are usually multiple companies who can arrange private tours even in the most "no infrastructure" places. For example, we just did a private tour in Ethiopia. There are multiple companies offering private tours to the 'stans, Iran, Mongolia, and other places off the beaten track. FWIW searching "private tours myanmar" produces lots of hits.

I think the more common driver for group-only is government. In the Galapagos, for example, tourists are not allowed to run around without supervision. Thankfully, most of the boats carry only 16 passengers. When we went to PRC twice in the 1980s, we were required to have a governnent-licensed guide and were not allowed to travel alone.

If not government, then logistics, like visits to the poles where AFIK it is not possible to simply book a cabin on the boats. One must book a tour.

International Travel News (https://www.intltravelnews.com/) is a good resource for private and very small group travel companies. They will send a free sample issue if a subscriber gives them the address of a prospect. Anyone who would like one, just PM me with a mailing address and I will forward it.

 

[JGoodish]

I understand why some folks like guided tours, travel agents, and cruises, but I do not prefer them. I don't want to go to the tourist traps, I want to go anywhere BUT the tourist traps. That makes it pretty hard for an organized tour group or a cruise to work for me.

In my experience, most travel agents don't add much value. Many of them haven't been there, and if they have, they naturally head to the tourist traps if for no other reason than that's what they can easily sell. Also, when I book a reservation, _I_ own it, which eliminates the hassle when changes are required.

My one excellent experience with a travel agent was with a cruise specialist, who only booked cruises and really did know his stuff. He handled the cruise, but I was on my own for everything else (airfare, rental car, etc.)


JKG

 

[Jay Honeck]

Just a few comments in response to your post about organized tours:

**
They are time-inefficient; there is always someone who is late to the bus. All meals are stretched to the time taken by the slowest and most inconsiderate group member.
**

On our tour, group dinners had no time frame, except the Mozart dinner in Vienna, which was presented in four courses (between sets of live Mozart concertos) in the oldest restaurant in Europe, having opened in the year 800-something. It was singularly spectacular.

Other organized meals were very loose, usually with a "meet here" at a specific time. We never felt rushed, or delayed.

**
They often miss worthwhile places that are too small to take a group. St. Basil's on Red Square, for example, is really a collection of small chapels. I doubt that many groups attempt it.
**

The tour groups only hit the big places, naturally -- but that's why they include generous portions of free time. We hit many tiny venues whilst exploring on our own.

**
All meals are taken in restaurants that are set up for herd feeding, often hotels, and are usually served buffet style -- comprising foods whose main talent is being able to survive for hours in a heated pan.
**

In 14 days we only ate one buffet -- and it was excellent. All other organized meals (and we only ate with the group for five dinners) were sit-down and great. I suppose this depends heavily on the tour company, though, so YMMV.

**
Food is lowest-common-denominator, designed to suit the flavor-shy and unadventurous.
**

Nine (of 14) dinners were on our own. We found some pretty fun places to eat!

**
Personal interaction with locals and guides is nonexistent.
**

Not our experience! We got on famously with our guides, and met many outstanding locals.

**
Accommodations, like food, are lowest common denominator --- hotels that attempt to be no significantly different from those you can rent in your home town.
**

I was very pleasantly surprised to discover that we stayed in just one chain hotel -- a Best Western -- on the entire journey. The hotels were quirky European (small beds, pushed together, etc) but very nice.

**
Attractions are served up on a schedule, whether you (or anybody else) have any interest or not.
**

We actually saw this as a strength. On a driving trip, it's too easy to end up lost in the minutiae, and missing the main sights. For a first pass through a large geographic area, the tour format made sure that we saw all of the "must see" stuff.

**
Even the tiniest bit of flexibility, like stopping on the road to take a photo, is unavailable.
**

True. Of course, the panoramic view, as seen through the enormous windows of our luxury coach, meant that I got some spectacular pictures anyway.

**
Tourist shops that pay commissions to guides are the most important stops on the trip and can neither be avoided nor reduced in time.
**

We never felt that way, but maybe other tours are different?

As I said, I think the tour is the way to go for a first time visitor like me. We had a great time!

Next time, we might just do the Eurail pass trip.

Edit: Sorry about the format. I haven't figured out how to do multi-quote in Tapatalk. It's fixed now.

Further Edit: We had been to Germany in Austria in 2008, but only for four days. So, technically, we aren't "first time visitors", but still, four days wasn't enough to barely wet our whistle.

 

[airdale]

... In my experience, most travel agents don't add much value. ...

In general, I don't disagree but there are really multiple flavors of agents.

• Agents in the US who simply resell cruises and trips that are packaged and arranged by others. Valuable (a little) only if they have enough experience to actually know what they are reselling through having multiple clients' experiences. But you never know if their recommendations are being made because the vendor is having a sales contest, there is an extra spiff available, or if the margin on the deal is exceptionally good. This class of agent will be of zero help if you have a problem in country. In general you are paying 20% or more for very little value-added.
• Agents in the destination country who are reselling. Example is the agents in Ecuador who are all reselling the legally limited number of Galapagos tour boats. It is easier to arrange customization with these agent and they are local enough to be of help if you have problems
• Agents in the destination country who actually arrange the trips, employ the guides, etc. Whether group or custom these, IMO, are the only ones worth working with. The internet, Skype, etc. have made this task very easy. It is also very easy to check references by telephone or email.

 

[ejensen]

We should learn the customs of where we visit and not push our American system on the world. Most service folks are paid a living or better wage and don't rely on tips to get home at night. I much prefer that way. Even on China.

 

[olasek]

Most service folks are paid a living or better wage and

I doubt that is universally true throughout Europe, a typical waiter salary in France is about 1500 euro /month - just a hair above minimum wage. This is definitely a low wage considering cost of living. Nobody is pushing anything on them - but the fact is they like getting 'US tips' that normally they don't get and another fact is US tourists in Europe are best tippers. And yes, the system of putting tips on CC is unreliable over there so people (adjusting to local customs) skip tipping.

 

[mtuomi]

I doubt that is universally true throughout Europe, a typical waiter salary in France is about 1500 euro /month - just a hair above minimum wage. This is definitely a low wage considering cost of living. Nobody is pushing anything on them - but the fact is they like getting 'US tips' that normally they don't get and another fact is US tourists in Europe are best tippers. And yes, the system of putting tips on CC is unreliable over there so people (adjusting to local customs) skip tipping.

Why should a typical waiter make much more than ~minimum wage?

When I started my work life, I took home ~1500/month. Absolutely no problems living on that.

 

[airdale]

Why should a typical waiter make much more than ~minimum wage? ...

(since we're suffering from terminal thread drift, I will comment.)

There is no "should" or "should not" about what people are paid. It's called a labor market for a reason.

If I advertise a job opening and get buried in qualified applicants, I am offering too much. If I get no qualified applicants I am offering too little. If I get an adequate number of qualified applicants from which to select I am paying about the right amount. Very simple. All three of these things have happened to me.

I assume that waiters and waitresses make what they do because that is what is necessary to attract enough qualified staff.

Unions distort this. That's why you read about hundreds of applicants for a single firefighter position. "Comparable worth" distorts this and results in overpaid and immobile employees females in government organizations. "Prevailing Wage" legislation distorts this and results in construction projects costing wildly more wherever the requirement is applied.

There is a legitimate social justice/social stability argument for a minimum wage but it must be judiciously applied or it will hurt the folks it is supposed to be helping. Making low-skill labor too expensive causes it to be replaced by automation. For example, I think the sales prospects for a hamburger-making robot are quite good.

 

[mtuomi]

(since we're suffering from terminal thread drift, I will comment.)

There is no "should" or "should not" about what people are paid. It's called a labor market for a reason.

If I advertise a job opening and get buried in qualified applicants, I am offering too much. If I get no qualified applicants I am offering too little. If I get an adequate number of qualified applicants from which to select I am paying about the right amount. Very simple. All three of these things have happened to me.

I assume that waiters and waitresses make what they do because that is what is necessary to attract enough qualified staff.

Unions distort this. That's why you read about hundreds of applicants for a single firefighter position. "Comparable worth" distorts this and results in overpaid and immobile employees females in government organizations. "Prevailing Wage" legislation distorts this and results in construction projects costing wildly more wherever the requirement is applied.

There is a legitimate social justice/social stability argument for a minimum wage but it must be judiciously applied or it will hurt the folks it is supposed to be helping. Making low-skill labor too expensive causes it to be replaced by automation. For example, I think the sales prospects for a hamburger-making robot are quite good.

Fully agree with this.

Simply put: Don't tip in Europe. It's pointless. It isn't really required and it makes you look like a showoff, the waitstaff are paid adequately for what they do. In fine dining restaurants, waitstaff are paid very well, in lower class restaurants, they are paid less.

"When in Rome" applies. (In some parts of Asia, tipping is considered insulting, so that's the opposite end of the spectrum)

 

[flyingron]

The Norwegian flag:

The Swedish flag:

The Finnish flag:

 

[Jay Honeck]

Fully agree with this.

Simply put: Don't tip in Europe. It's pointless. It isn't really required and it makes you look like a showoff, the waitstaff are paid adequately for what they do. In fine dining restaurants, waitstaff are paid very well, in lower class restaurants, they are paid less.

"When in Rome" applies. (In some parts of Asia, tipping is considered insulting, so that's the opposite end of the spectrum)

Our European friends (that we dined with) continually apologized for the poor service we received in the restaurants, and praised the American system of paying wait staff based on performance.

Dont get me wrong, we loved some of the European dining ways. The habit of never rushing a diner, never bringing the check until requested, is marvelous. The ability to linger, long and unhurried, over a meal was a real treat.

And, of course, the food was amazing. The puff pastry filled with veal in a wine sauce -- a specialty in Lucerne -- ranks as one of the best meals I've ever had. And the day-old croissants were better than any fresh ones I've had in the States...

Unfortunately, we often "lingered" a long time before receiving so much as a menu, let alone a drink. This wasn't due to a lack of staff -- we often saw waitstaff standing around. It's just that they have zero incentive to move quickly, and their ability to avoid eye contact was well-practiced!

Our friend in Vienna (an Austrian citizen who now spends several months each year living in the U.S.) also pointed out the difference in demeanor between American and European waitstaff. Until then, we hadn't noticed, but she pointed out how surly and unhappy-looking the waitstaff was at the restaurant she took us to. Looking back on it, I don't think we met a single waitress/waiter who feigned happiness or appreciation. Her comment was that this would never be tolerated in America -- and she's right.

So, at least WRT service, be glad we live where we live, gentlemen. Now, if we can only get their beer, cheese, sausage, and croissants!

 

[mtuomi]

Our European friends (that we dined with) continually apologized for the poor service we received in the restaurants, and praised the American system of paying wait staff based on performance.

Dont get me wrong, we loved some of the European dining ways. The habit of never rushing a diner, never bringing the check until requested, is marvelous. The ability to linger, long and unhurried, over a meal was a real treat.

And, of course, the food was amazing. The puff pastry filled with veal in a wine sauce -- a specialty in Lucerne -- ranks as one of the best meals I've ever had. And the day-old croissants were better than any fresh ones I've had in the States...

Unfortunately, we often "lingered" a long time before receiving so much as a menu, let alone a drink. This wasn't due to a lack of staff -- we often saw waitstaff standing around. It's just that they have zero incentive to move quickly, and their ability to avoid eye contact was well-practiced!

Our friend in Vienna (an Austrian citizen who now spends several months each year living in the U.S.) also pointed out the difference in demeanor between American and European waitstaff. Until then, we hadn't noticed, but she pointed out how surly and unhappy-looking the waitstaff was at the restaurant she took us to. Looking back on it, I don't think we met a single waitress/waiter who feigned happiness or appreciation. Her comment was that this would never be tolerated in America -- and she's right.

So, at least WRT service, be glad we live where we live, gentlemen. Now, if we can only get their beer, cheese, sausage, and croissants!

Hehe, I know the feeling. I lived there(Europe) the first 27 years of my life

There are pros and cons in both ways of service. When I'm having a quick powerlunch, I appreciate the "anything else I can get for you? Oh just the check please. Oh I have it right here" transaction. If I want to spend time, chill and relax, I like being left alone. The universal fact is, that _good_ waitstaff can adapt to both situations. This is true on both sides of the pond.
In Europe, those good waiters/waitresses are compensated adequately (and if not, they have plenty of opportunities across the whole continent), the poor staff work for minimum wage.

This is perhaps one of the only things I can think of, where free market works better in Europe than in the US.

 

[Jay Honeck]

This is perhaps one of the only things I can think of, where free market works better in Europe than in the US.

??? How do you conclude this?

IMHO, restaurant service in the U.S. is superior. That is the free market at its best.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Looking back on it, I don't think we met a single waitress/waiter who feigned happiness or appreciation. Her comment was that this would never be tolerated in America -- and she's right.

So, at least WRT service, be glad we live where we live, gentlemen. Now, if we can only get their beer, cheese, sausage, and croissants!

Why would you want somebody to feign happiness to see you, a total stranger?

That is a strange dynamic where you want people to pretend to be happy to see you when they have never seen you in your life, just to try and get a couple of more dollars out of your pocket. That's the job of a hooker, not a waitress.

Next time you are in Europe, see if you can eat at the same place multiple times, and watch how it changes. Be friendly, talk to them about their business, ask about them. By the third time, they are genuinely happy to see you because they like you.

(Works best in mom and pop establishments far off the Guided Tour / McHotel types of places).