VFR over ORD class B

[slavinger]

Hi all, I fly Wings of Mercy flights in a single from Detroit to MDW, UGN, MSN, RST, and a few others. When we're IFR with a patient on board, going around the lake, and penetrating through Chicago to the N/NW, we always get a super circuitous route to the west, a cross-country in itself. Deadheading back eastbound I was planning on motoring VFR right over the top of ORD class B at 11,500. Thoughts?

 

[Vinny]

I don't see why not. Although you never get routing over the Bravo IFR, there's nothing C90 can do about it if you're VFR (except maybe cancel your flight following).

 

[mcmanigle]

Hi all, I fly Wings of Mercy flights in a single from Detroit to MDW, UGN, MSN, RST, and a few others. When we're IFR with a patient on board, going around the lake, and penetrating through Chicago to the N/NW, we always get a super circuitous route to the west, a cross-country in itself. Deadheading back eastbound I was planning on motoring VFR right over the top of ORD class B at 11,500. Thoughts?

Don't know ORD specifically, but other large bravos are fine with going overtop. They appreciate it if you grab flight following.

Out of curiosity, have you tried using the compassion call sign? Do you get any kind of compassionate routing?

 

[ScottM]

Chi-App will try and discourage it. Ed Fred has done it. So here is what you do.
You'll be VFR, your advisories will be cancelled before you get to Chi-App airspace because they do not accept VFR handoffs. Climb up, get on top of the airspace and then call them for flight following. Too late for them to try and tell you to move. Or better yet, ignore them altogether. They don't like talking to GA. So don't talk them and make them move stuff around you.

FWIW I was almost going to go over the top a few weeks ago. But the cloud deck came down to close to the bravo. It gave me scant room to operate. I could have done a pop up clearance if needed. But with strong headwinds, putting oneself into a corner was not the best option. So...lower and to the west I went.

 

[Mistake Not...]

I wonder if that's why Atlanta goes up to 12,500. It's like they really want you to work for it.

 

[Hank S]

I brush the edge of ATL from 6500 to 10,000 but have not yet needed to go close to over it. Not sure my plane will reach ORD, even starting in WV.

 

[MarkZ]

Chi-App will try and discourage it. Ed Fred has done it. So here is what you do.

You'll be VFR, your advisories will be cancelled before you get to Chi-App airspace because they do not accept VFR handoffs. Climb up, get on top of the airspace and then call them for flight following. Too late for them to try and tell you to move. Or better yet, ignore them altogether. They don't like talking to GA. So don't talk them and make them move stuff around you.



FWIW I was almost going to go over the top a few weeks ago. But the cloud deck came down to close to the bravo. It gave me scant room to operate. I could have done a pop up clearance if needed. But with strong headwinds, putting oneself into a corner was not the best option. So...lower and to the west I went.

I've rarely seen a VFR request for flight following be denied, and I haven't denied one though I have delayed one due to other traffic. I would rather be talking to you and know what you are doing. Chicago ARTCC/Milwaukee Approach/Rockford Approach may cancel your flight following, the most likely reason is because the computers don't normally pass VFR flight following plans. When terminated, ask for a recommended frequency and check on when there is a break in the action.

If you don't talk to me, I am moving my aircraft around you anyway. Although I'm not required to do so, I don't much enjoy setting you up to become fodder in some heavy iron's grill. Knowing your intentions and being able to to talk to you about the other aircraft makes my job easier, and helps the system flow smoother.

I have given some Bravo clearances, but it's not a simple task. We can have several controllers working the same sky. I may not be busy, however another controller working the same chunk of airspace may not be able to accommodate a VFR in the Bravo. VFR Bravo clearances aren't much different than an IFR clearance in the Bravo. All Bravo aircraft require separation, sometimes that requires the VFR to fly specific headings as well as hold specific altitudes.

Don't know ORD specifically, but other large bravos are fine with going overtop. They appreciate it if you grab flight following.



Out of curiosity, have you tried using the compassion call sign? Do you get any kind of compassionate routing?

Traffic permitting, we will try to work out a routing or altitude for compassion and MEDEVAC flights. Sometimes it requires the flight depart or arrive at a certain time, most of the time a heads up phone call beforehand is appreciated, but it all depends.

PM sent to the OP.


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[flyingron]

I've gone over the class B there a number of times. No problem. Chicago Approach will even give you flight following. Easier than IFR through the area.

27K: Is there any altitude I can ask for that will avoid me having to go to KELSI.
C90: Let me check....no
27K: OK, I'm going to climb to 10,5, cancel IFR, and you'll give me FF to direct to my destination.
C90: That will work.

Only problem is that they had to hold the departures out of ORD at 9000, except for the one they forgot who I watched climb up to my altitude and then descend and ***** that he just got a TCAS RA.

 

[LDJones]

I did that as a fairly newbie private pilot 35 years ago. True story:

When I called approach for FF he said, "You're where?!?" I told him I was over his airspace and would appreciate advisories. His response: "Buddy, I've got 30 aircraft inbound, all descending through where you are right now. All I can say is 'Good Luck!'''

I never got such good looks at 737s, LearJets and Metroliners in flight as I did that day! We turned on every light in the 172XP to help to be seen....even the dome light inside!!

Haven't done that since.

 

[Dr. O]

Normally I am the nicest, most cooperative guy in the world. But I have a real problem with being denied the use of a Victor airway just because it passes through your B.
Victor Airways are there for public use. When I am President For Life, as I should be, that issue will be dealt with

 

[ScottM]

I've rarely seen a VFR request for flight following be denied,

You must be new to Chi-App. Or you are using the special radios that do not hear planes that weigh below 12,500lbs.

Chi-App is notorious for not giving FF. It is a well earned rep too.

and I haven't denied one though I have delayed one due to other traffic. I would rather be talking to you and know what you are doing.

And that just makes sense. Kudos to you!!! Seriously I hope Chi-App starts doing things like that.

Chicago ARTCC/Milwaukee Approach/Rockford Approach may cancel your flight following, the most likely reason is because the computers don't normally pass VFR flight following plans. When terminated, ask for a recommended frequency and check on when there is a break in the action.

Then for some reason the Chi-App computer is the only computer in ATC that does not do FF handoffs.

Flying back from FWA I get a handoff, when VFR, from them to South Bend. But South Bend will tell me advisories cancelled because Chi-App will not accept VFR FF handoffs.

They are not alone. When coming in from the south I will get handoff all the way, even to Chi-Center. But once I get north of EON, they cancel and tell me tough luck, try with Chi-App and I may get lucky.

I have given some Bravo clearances, but it's not a simple task. We can have several controllers working the same sky. I may not be busy, however another controller working the same chunk of airspace may not be able to accommodate a VFR in the Bravo. VFR Bravo clearances aren't much different than an IFR clearance in the Bravo. All Bravo aircraft require separation, sometimes that requires the VFR to fly specific headings as well as hold specific altitudes.

I have gotten a few, I understand.




Traffic permitting, we will try to work out a routing or altitude for compassion and MEDEVAC flights. Sometimes it requires the flight depart or arrive at a certain time, most of the time a heads up phone call beforehand is appreciated, but it all depends.

PM sent to the OP.


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[EdFred]

I have given some Bravo clearances, but it's not a simple task. We can have several controllers working the same sky. I may not be busy, however another controller working the same chunk of airspace may not be able to accommodate a VFR in the Bravo. VFR Bravo clearances aren't much different than an IFR clearance in the Bravo. All Bravo aircraft require separation, sometimes that requires the VFR to fly specific headings as well as hold specific altitudes.

How often do you guys change runways that makes overflight "impossible"

Looking at runway layout there is no reason that there couldn't be 3 VFR corridors set up directly over the field from 4000 to 7000 A permanent 180/360 corridor from 4000-7000. And the other two align with 4/22 and 14/32. When runways 4/22 are in use, the 422 corridor is closed. When 14/32 is in use the 1432 corridor is closed. Any arrivals and departures into or out of either ORD or MDW could easily be above or below these "tubes".

The airspace is 3-D the arrival and departure corridors don't need to extend to flight level infinity.

 

[Jmcmanna]

How often do you guys change runways that makes overflight "impossible"

Looking at runway layout there is no reason that there couldn't be 3 VFR corridors set up directly over the field from 4000 to 7000 A permanent 180/360 corridor from 4000-7000. And the other two align with 4/22 and 14/32. When runways 4/22 are in use, the 422 corridor is closed. When 14/32 is in use the 1432 corridor is closed. Any arrivals and departures into or out of either ORD or MDW could easily be above or below these "tubes".

The airspace is 3-D the arrival and departure corridors don't need to extend to flight level infinity.

Because the airspace is class B, there is a minimum separation standard between every aircraft in the airspace. Chicago can handle the volume of traffic that it does because of the procedures in place to manage every single operation in the airspace. Departures off ORD climb to 5000, traffic going north off MDW or south of PWK/UGN goes over ORD at 6000, ORD arrivals are descending to 7000 from 11000. The airspace is class B airspace for a reason.

Not everyone can use the airspace at the same time. The class B's primary use is the 3000 flight per day that take off and land at O'Hare. The written procedures off all the other satellite airports are designed to stay away from the class B, but the controllers give shortcuts to other IFR's routinely because they can be worked without delaying aircraft to the primary airport. If a controller can clear you through the class B without delaying airplanes going to ORD, they generally will.

Anyone who thinks C90 doesn't do flight following probably hasn't flown through C90 airspace in the last 5 years. In 5 years of being a controller there, I've never once seen someone denied flight following, and the number of denied practice approaches I can count on one hand. I am sure it has been denied on occasion, but we audited all the time and aren't given unlimited discretion on denying services.

 

[Ted]

NYC has LGA, JFK, EWR, traffic en route from BOS/PHL/DC, and I have never heard VFR through the bravo denied, ever. I don't know what they do better, but it should be the industry standard!

 

[EdFred]

Because the airspace is class B, there is a minimum separation standard between every aircraft in the airspace. Chicago can handle the volume of traffic that it does because of the procedures in place to manage every single operation in the airspace. Departures off ORD climb to 5000, traffic going north off MDW or south of PWK/UGN goes over ORD at 6000, ORD arrivals are descending to 7000 from 11000. The airspace is class B airspace for a reason.

Everyone can't use the airspace at the same time. The class B's primary use is the 3000 flight per day that take off and land at O'Hare. The written procedures off all the other satellite airports are designed to stay away from the class B, but the controllers give shortcuts to other IFR's routinely because they can be worked without delaying aircraft to the primary airport. If a controller can clear you through the class B without delaying airplanes going to ORD, they generally will.

Anyone who things C90 doesn't do flight following probably hasn't flown through C90 airspace in the last 5 years. In 5 years of being a controller there, I've never once seen someone denied flight following, and the number of denied practice approaches I can count on one hand. I am sure it has been denied on occasion, but we audited all the time and aren't given unlimited discretion on denying services.

And yet the EWR/JFK/LGA/TEB area handles 4000 a day, and has lets you fly right through the middle of all of them, and caps the Bravo at 7000 You'll need better excuses than that.

And the reason you never hear FF denied is because you guys tell SBN, MKE, RFD, et al...not to hand anyone off to you. Of course you never see it denied, because it's never asked for, because we're told CHI APP won't accept FF handoffs.

 

[Bill]

They don't like talking to GA. So don't talk them and make them move stuff around you.

Works for me.

 

[PJS313]

NYC has LGA, JFK, EWR, traffic en route from BOS/PHL/DC, and I have never heard VFR through the bravo denied, ever. I don't know what they do better, but it should be the industry standard!

That's what I was thinking! Haven't been out to Chicago yet but living just south of the NYC Bravo they are always willing to accommodate...they will get snippy with those that aren't on their A game but as long as you are professional and quick on the frequency they help you out with FF and clearances

 

[slavinger]

Don't know ORD specifically, but other large bravos are fine with going overtop. They appreciate it if you grab flight following.

Out of curiosity, have you tried using the compassion call sign? Do you get any kind of compassionate routing?

mcmanigle: Yes we use Compassion with a patient on board, sometimes it helps, sometimes not. Sometimes they're so freakin' busy that we fly halfway through IL before we get turned. When we don't have a patient on board we're just a "N"umber, so we lose whatever advantage we had.

 

[Jmcmanna]

NYC has LGA, JFK, EWR, traffic en route from BOS/PHL/DC, and I have never heard VFR through the bravo denied, ever. I don't know what they do better, but it should be the industry standard!

So JFK moves 35,000 fewer airplanes per year (EWR does just over half the ops of ORD, and LGA is between EWR and JFK), and you don't understand why it's harder to fly through ORD's airspace? Traffic to/from EWR, LGA, and JFK all use different arrival and departure patterns to keep all of their traffic apart. Comparing the class B's in Chicago and NY is like comparing crossing a 2 lane road vs crossing a limited access highway. Each of those airports has significantly less traffic than ORD, which is why it has smaller areas of charted class B airspace per airport.

Airport for airport, class B for class B, ORD's is significantly busier. Chicago TRACON also has 70 fully certified controllers, N90 has 169 fully certified controllers (as of March 2012). C90 works significantly more airplanes per controller than N90.

NY TRACON is challenging, their airspace is complex, and they move a ton of airplanes, there is no question about that. But, they have more square miles of airspace, more controllers, and the number of airplanes operating in their class B airspace is smaller.

 

[MarkZ]

And yet the EWR/JFK/LGA/TEB area handles 4000 a day, and has lets you fly right through the middle of all of them, and caps the Bravo at 7000 You'll need better excuses than that.

And the reason you never hear FF denied is because you guys tell SBN, MKE, RFD, et al...not to hand anyone off to you. Of course you never see it denied, because it's never asked for, because we're told CHI APP won't accept FF handoffs.

I assume in all your denials you asked for the next frequency and made a subsequent request?

The VFR passage is an automation issue, not a controller issue. If the adjoining facility does not want to manually forward the information, the controller terminates radar services. We don't make the rules, we work around them.

You, and others on here, should take a tour here, so you can see what is going on.

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[mikea]

...Anyone who thinks C90 doesn't do flight following probably hasn't flown through C90 airspace in the last 5 years. In 5 years of being a controller there, I've never once seen someone denied flight following, and the number of denied practice approaches I can count on one hand. I am sure it has been denied on occasion, but we audited all the time and aren't given unlimited discretion on denying services.

Technically you're right. C90 doesn't so much deny flight following as deny THEY CAN HEAR YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE.

All of the C90 whining about how mind boggly impossibly busy O'Hare is has to answer why LAX, JFK and ATL seem to not be so busy.

 

[Jmcmanna]

LAX, ATL, and JFK are busy, no one is questioning that. The airspace for each airport is set up in a way that expedites traffic into and out of that airport. The notion that any pilot should be able to use any airspace at any time is as ridiculous as the notion that any person can drive a car on any road at any time -- wrong way down I-90? I paid the toll, right? How long do people sit on roads -- going the right way -- not moving because there isn't enough room for everyone to go? Planes can't stop-and-go in traffic and are routed around other traffic. Should we route 25 airliners around the one Cherokee who wants to go direct to his destination, or the other way around?

If you routinely call Chicago TRACON for flight following and are ignored, either you aren't on a Chicago Approach frequency, or your radio is broken, or you're lying. RFD approach terminating your radar service at the airspace boundary is NOT Chicago Approach denying flight following. Next time you call for flight following and are ignored, submit a FOIA request with the date, time, and frequency and request a copy of the tape, then make a complaint. Upload it and post it here so everyone can hear you being ignored. If you need help with a good frequency in a specific area, I'd be happy to help. I would bet that for every flight following request that is denied or ignored, 100 are given a squawk code and provided flight following to our airspace boundary.

If you live near Chicago, why not call 847-608-5500, tell them you're a local pilot, and ask for a tour of the facility? Why don't you come and see how the airspace is set up and how the traffic is moved rather than just complain that the controllers are trying to make it harder on you because they're lazy or incompetent?

Lastly, I find it interesting that some of the same people who complain about ATC and wake turbulence encounters in other posts want to fly closer to the heavy metal through the class B while they're departing and heavy, clean, and slow as they begin to climb out.

 

[EdFred]

I assume in all your denials you asked for the next frequency and made a subsequent request?

The VFR passage is an automation issue, not a controller issue. If the adjoining facility does not want to manually forward the information, the controller terminates radar services. We don't make the rules, we work around them.

You, and others on here, should take a tour here, so you can see what is going on.

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Odd, South Bend hands me off to Fort Wayne and Kalamazoo, and ZAU, and ZID, and every other adjoining facility except CHI APP. So don't pass it off on the adjacent facility not passing it along. They pass it along just fine to everyone else.

The only place I ever get FF terminated (where radar coverage is in play) is heading toward C90

If everyone else is the problem, maybe you need to rethink how it's being looked at.

 

[Clark1961]

Odd, South Bend hands me off to Fort Wayne and Kalamazoo, and ZAU, and ZID, and every other adjoining facility except CHI APP. So don't pass it off on the adjacent facility not passing it along. They pass it along just fine to everyone else.

The only place I ever get FF terminated (where radar coverage is in play) is heading toward C90

If everyone else is the problem, maybe you need to rethink how it's being looked at.

Ed - do ya think that arguing with Chicago approach controllers about VFR operations in their airspace is more than just pointless? maybe it's borderline insanity? you know the old saw about repeating an action and expecting a different outcome?

 

[MarkZ]

Odd, South Bend hands me off to Fort Wayne and Kalamazoo, and ZAU, and ZID, and every other adjoining facility except CHI APP. So don't pass it off on the adjacent facility not passing it along. They pass it along just fine to everyone else.

The only place I ever get FF terminated (where radar coverage is in play) is heading toward C90

If everyone else is the problem, maybe you need to rethink how it's being looked at.

Nope, you may want to rethink what you perceive the problem to be, starting with an understanding of an automation versus controller issue. Again, the computer inhibits passage of VFR flight plans to our facility. It all depends on what the facility's computer settings are. Controllers have ZERO say or ability to change that. If an adjoining facility wishes to effect a VFR handoff, they have to initiate a manual handoff with the appropriate controller. Given how congested frequencies can get, it is easier to terminate an aircraft when close to the boundary.

You have yet to answer my question

I assume in all your denials you asked for the next frequency and made a subsequent request?

Was your subsequent request with C90 denied?


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[EdFred]

Ed - do ya think that arguing with Chicago approach controllers about VFR operations in their airspace is more than just pointless? maybe it's borderline insanity? you know the old saw about repeating an action and expecting a different outcome?

I need something to do when the phones aren't ringing.

 

[deeruck]

NYC has LGA, JFK, EWR, traffic en route from BOS/PHL/DC, and I have never heard VFR through the bravo denied, ever. I don't know what they do better, but it should be the industry standard!

NYC typically offers me a bravo clearance when I'm on FF: "if you can take x500ft, I can get you direct".

 

[EdFred]

Nope, you may want to rethink what you perceive the problem to be, starting with an understanding of an automation versus controller issue. Again, the computer inhibits passage of VFR flight plans to our facility. It all depends on what the facility's computer settings are. Controllers have ZERO say or ability to change that. If an adjoining facility wishes to effect a VFR handoff, they have to initiate a manual handoff with the appropriate controller. Given how congested frequencies can get, it is easier to terminate an aircraft when close to the boundary.

You have yet to answer my question




Was your subsequent request with C90 denied?



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No, last time I just air filed a clearance with SBN and forced you guys to deal with me. That was when I was told CHI APP is NOT accepting handoffs. The only time I did get FF was departing RFD after midnight in the middle of week. 11,500 eastbound.

 

[Jmcmanna]

That's because the letters of agreement and flight plan processing between C90 and it's adjacent facilities allow for overflights from 10pm to 6am.

Coming from SBN south of an east/west line through ORD, ask for flight following on 128.2. North of that line, use 120.55. You'll get a new squawk code and handed off between sectors in the facility. At the airspace boundary, you'll either get terminated (but the controller will tell you the next frequency if you ask), or, workload permitting, a manual handoff will be made.

 

[MarkZ]

No, last time I just air filed a clearance with SBN and forced you guys to deal with me. That was when I was told CHI APP is NOT accepting handoffs. The only time I did get FF was departing RFD after midnight in the middle of week. 11,500 eastbound.

Are you saying you air filed an IFR clearance, and were subsequently advised by SBN that C90 was not accepting IFR handoffs? What was your destination and route of flight? If not, then assuming you were VFR, did you attempt to contact Chicago Approach for FF after SBN terminated services?


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[EdFred]

Are you saying you air filed an IFR clearance, and were subsequently advised by SBN that C90 was not accepting IFR handoffs? What was your destination and route of flight? If not, then assuming you were VFR, did you attempt to contact Chicago Approach for FF after SBN terminated services?


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I was headed from GRR to I forget where now, but let's just call it Springfield, IL because that is about the route of the flight. I got handed off from AZO to SBN.

SBN told me that CHI APP was not accepting any VFR handoffs, and flight following would be terminated when leaving their airspace. No option for trying the next frequency. I wanted to be squawking and talking, so I asked her if I could jump over to FSS, or if she could give me a clearance. She said she would do it, so I gave her my info, and she put me in the system. I got my clearance from SBN and handed off to CHI APP under IFR. I don't recall if I got direct, or Peotone, but I think I got Peotone, which wasn't much of a course change anyway.

After I got handed off to the next facility, I cancelled IFR, and went back to flight following.

Wouldn't it just be easier to accept VFR handoffs? You ended up talking to me anyway.

 

[Jmcmanna]

Next time say, "what would be the next frequency for Chicago?" They'll say 128.2, and Chicago will give you a code and you won't have to bother with filing an IFR flight plan.

Also, they're not supposed to give us IFR overflights unless it's after 10pm, so if SBN gave you the clearance and it was not after 10pm, either they gave you to Chicago Center on 132.05, not Chicago approach, or they went out of their way to make a special request to give you a shortcut...which why wouldn't they have done that with a VFR? I don't know, I don't work with them.

 

[EdFred]

Next time say, "what would be the next frequency for Chicago?" They'll say 128.2, and Chicago will give you a code and you won't have to bother with filing an IFR flight plan.

Also, they're not supposed to give us IFR overflights unless it's after 10pm, so if SBN gave you the clearance and it was not after 10pm, either they gave you to Chicago Center on 132.05, not Chicago approach, or they went out of their way to make a special request to give you a shortcut...which why wouldn't they have done that with a VFR? I don't know, I don't work with them.

No, this was in the middle of the day. And it wasn't over the Bravo, merely in your jurisdiction at 4000ish.

 

[MarkZ]

No, this was in the middle of the day. And it wasn't over the Bravo, merely in your jurisdiction at 4000ish.

So you're saying that Chicago Approach denied you VFR flight following at 4,000 yet allowed you to fly through the airspace on an IFR flight plan? I agree, something here definitely doesn't add up. If C90 was too busy to take you as a VFR overflight, why would they take you as an IFR overflight. We have procedures spelled out, no IFR overflights during the day.

If you were traveling from GRR via SBN Approach to SPI, you'd barely touch the far southeast corner of our airspace if at all...

I'm thinking you are talking about Chicago center on 132.05 or 132.5, and not Chicago Approach in your situation...


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[EdFred]

So you're saying that Chicago Approach denied you VFR flight following at 4,000 yet allowed you to fly through the airspace on an IFR flight plan? I agree, something here definitely doesn't add up. If C90 was too busy to take you as a VFR overflight, why would they take you as an IFR overflight. We have procedures spelled out, no IFR overflights during the day.

If you were traveling from GRR via SBN Approach to SPI, you'd barely touch the far southeast corner of our airspace if at all...

I'm thinking you are talking about Chicago center on 132.05 or 132.5, and not Chicago Approach in your situation...


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No, it was definitely approach. I know the difference between center and approach. And it wasn't in the Bravo. I was flying down the lakeshore, so I was close to Michigan City and Gary. And no it wasn't Midway.

 

[MarkZ]

No, it was definitely approach. I know the difference between center and approach. And it wasn't in the Bravo. I was flying down the lakeshore, so I was close to Michigan City and Gary. And no it wasn't Midway.

This doesn't make sense.

I would have said goodbye to SBN and made a request for flight following with whatever frequency they gave me. I will tell you if you were between MGC and GYY, heading to SPI, you would be in C90's airspace for about ten miles, probably less than that. Why wouldn't you want to talk to the center? You would be flying the majority of the next leg with them...

But even more to the point, why wouldn't you simply ask SBN for the next frequency? If your plan was to remain VFR why bother everyone with an IFR flight plan and clearance for what appears to be fifteen to twenty miles, if VFR conditions prevailed?




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[Jmcmanna]

Yeah, something doesn't add up--at a minimum this is an unusual situation. SBN approach isn't authorized to give IFR clearances through C90 airspace during the day. IFR down the lakeshore at 4000 is *almost* impossible because of MDW traffic (unless you mean westbound along the south end of the lake, near VPZ), but I could see a bored sector 1 controller approve an aircraft south of GYY going over EON at 4000. If an aircraft's flight plan takes it close enough to our boundary, we can see all of its information on the scope. The Sector 1 controller may have seen you, called SBN approach and told them they could give you a shortcut. I have done that before....but understand, filing IFR didn't facilitate that -- you just happened to get lucky that someone from C90 went out of their way to give you a shortcut because he or she wasn't busy at the moment. The standard procedure is to vector you south around the airspace, almost 15 miles south of GYY before turning toward EON.

If I see traffic moving from over EON toward RFD airspace, I'll call Chicago Center and approve a shortcut in that direction if I'm not busy. I appreciate shortcuts when I am flying too, and I am one of the most GA friendly controllers in the facility.

As far as the class B thing, as a pilot and ATC, I can assure you that you will not understand until you come to the facility and see how the traffic moves. I don't get to fly direct wherever I want, VFR or IFR, and I know all the tricks about getting around the airspace because I move hundreds of airplanes a week through it.

 

[N801BH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdFred
How often do you guys change runways that makes overflight "impossible"

Looking at runway layout there is no reason that there couldn't be 3 VFR corridors set up directly over the field from 4000 to 7000 A permanent 180/360 corridor from 4000-7000. And the other two align with 4/22 and 14/32. When runways 4/22 are in use, the 422 corridor is closed. When 14/32 is in use the 1432 corridor is closed. Any arrivals and departures into or out of either ORD or MDW could easily be above or below these "tubes".

The airspace is 3-D the arrival and departure corridors don't need to extend to flight level infinity.

Because the airspace is class B, there is a minimum separation standard between every aircraft in the airspace. Chicago can handle the volume of traffic that it does because of the procedures in place to manage every single operation in the airspace. Departures off ORD climb to 5000, traffic going north off MDW or south of PWK/UGN goes over ORD at 6000, ORD arrivals are descending to 7000 from 11000. The airspace is class B airspace for a reason.

Not everyone can use the airspace at the same time. The class B's primary use is the 3000 flight per day that take off and land at O'Hare. The written procedures off all the other satellite airports are designed to stay away from the class B, but the controllers give shortcuts to other IFR's routinely because they can be worked without delaying aircraft to the primary airport. If a controller can clear you through the class B without delaying airplanes going to ORD, they generally will.

Anyone who thinks C90 doesn't do flight following probably hasn't flown through C90 airspace in the last 5 years. In 5 years of being a controller there, I've never once seen someone denied flight following, and the number of denied practice approaches I can count on one hand. I am sure it has been denied on occasion, but we audited all the time and aren't given unlimited discretion on denying services.

I ain't buying that excuse at ALL... Unless you are launching rockets straight up out of the airport, a few VFR corridors right over the field will give adequate separation of VFR / IFR traffic..

As for the other excuse of outlaying ATC computers unable to interact with C-90's for FF transitions... I say BS to that too... Get the puters fixed and fire the idiots who floated that excuse... IMHO..

 

[Jmcmanna]

So you go over the top of ORD at 4500....then what happens when you're not over the top of the airport anymore? 5 miles north of ORD (assuming landing on a west flow), where are the departures going to be?

 

[N801BH]

So you go over the top of ORD at 4500....then what happens when you're not over the top of the airport anymore? 5 miles north of ORD (assuming landing on a west flow), where are the departures going to be?

I "think" the other posted stated to set up those corridors at a right angle to miss incoming and outgoing flights.... Let me re-read his post.... BRB...