MarkZ
En-Route
If ORD is landing west, the tower launches departures on any heading from 149 clockwise 040. If you find a blank spot that still affords standard IFR and VFR class B separation, have a ball.
VFR over ORD class B
- Thread starter slavinger
- Start date
Jmcmanna
Pre-takeoff checklist
Look at the ORD 8 SID http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1405/00166OHARE.PDF
Departures move because the tower doesn't have to launch them all 3 miles apart. All of those fixes are initial departure fixes....I guess it would be a matter of opinion as to whether or not delaying departures on the ground to get them all 3 miles-in-trail vs 'fanning' them out 1 mile-in-trail so GA can shave a couple of minutes off their trip is a benefit. Chicago is in the middle of the country, and there are departures in every direction. It's not LAX with 4 parallel runways and 75% of the traffic departing east and north.
ATL would be the most comparable airport...departures in more or less every direction, similar arrival and departure patterns (although no MDW equivalent 12 miles away). I don't work there, so I don't know how often they let VFRs go right over the top at 4500 or 3500.
Departures move because the tower doesn't have to launch them all 3 miles apart. All of those fixes are initial departure fixes....I guess it would be a matter of opinion as to whether or not delaying departures on the ground to get them all 3 miles-in-trail vs 'fanning' them out 1 mile-in-trail so GA can shave a couple of minutes off their trip is a benefit. Chicago is in the middle of the country, and there are departures in every direction. It's not LAX with 4 parallel runways and 75% of the traffic departing east and north.
ATL would be the most comparable airport...departures in more or less every direction, similar arrival and departure patterns (although no MDW equivalent 12 miles away). I don't work there, so I don't know how often they let VFRs go right over the top at 4500 or 3500.
MarkZ
En-Route
ATL departures fly due west or east from the airport for several miles before turning on course.
Hank S
En-Route
Man, this "most GA-friendly Chicago controller" has quite an attitude! "It's not my problem, you should just live with it. We're too busy, there's not enough space, that's why everyone has to fly so far around. The computers aren't set up to take a VFR handoff, so I can't deny FF to transient aircraft." I've flown over 1300 nm one way using FF, and was never dropped but always transferred seamless from one controller to the next--Center, Approach, Departure--all the way from WV to Yellowstone and back. I even talk to eleven different controllers [including two Centers, three approaches and my destination Tower] visiting my inlaws VFR, including altitude restrictions over active R-space immediately adjacent to the destination. [No, you can't fly low over Fort Bragg!] Memory says that I used two different frequencies for ATL Center, too.
Just a week ago, passing ATL on VFR FF all of 3-4 miles outside the Bravo at 8500 msl, I heard them talking to someone going over the top around 3000 msl, warning them about the TFR for the Braves game. I didn't ask to go into the Bravo because my direct course would take me about 1½ miles inside for about 7 miles.
Really makes me glad that I don't ever need to fly around Chicago, because there is apparently very little GA traffic that gets to fly TO Chicago . . . . .
Just a week ago, passing ATL on VFR FF all of 3-4 miles outside the Bravo at 8500 msl, I heard them talking to someone going over the top around 3000 msl, warning them about the TFR for the Braves game. I didn't ask to go into the Bravo because my direct course would take me about 1½ miles inside for about 7 miles.
Really makes me glad that I don't ever need to fly around Chicago, because there is apparently very little GA traffic that gets to fly TO Chicago . . . . .
retailguy
Line Up and Wait
I'm in Houston, so don't have much skin in the game here. I'm really grateful for the controllers in this thread answering questions and standing up for their jobs and co workers. However, I'm really curious, so I'm going to ask a question.
It doesn't take much to find similar complaints regarding Chicago Approach. I've read about them for years, from what appear to be many different people. So the procedures must be different than what is considered "common" in other locations.
If I'm going South/North, or East/West, or whatever and want VFR FF, exactly how do I do it, and where will you send me? Around the bravo, below the bravo, above the bravo, etc? I know you said to ask for a frequency, and then ask for another squawk code, etc. (I do think that's a bit ridiculous since I've already done that, and have a code and am identified in the system, etc, but whatever). I can do that, and I will, but like you guys I don't like surprises either.
Tell us how to do it! Thanks.
It doesn't take much to find similar complaints regarding Chicago Approach. I've read about them for years, from what appear to be many different people. So the procedures must be different than what is considered "common" in other locations.
If I'm going South/North, or East/West, or whatever and want VFR FF, exactly how do I do it, and where will you send me? Around the bravo, below the bravo, above the bravo, etc? I know you said to ask for a frequency, and then ask for another squawk code, etc. (I do think that's a bit ridiculous since I've already done that, and have a code and am identified in the system, etc, but whatever). I can do that, and I will, but like you guys I don't like surprises either.
Tell us how to do it! Thanks.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
I was denied flight following last weekend by Chi-App. So nice try with 'No true Scotsman' argument.
Agreed....
I have left Jackson Hole headed to OSH.. Got FF right after take off from SLC center, they transferred me to Denver center 20 minutes later,,, who kept me till Rapid City / Ellsworth Approach, they watched me all the way across SD and hooked me up with Minn center ??,, that lead me to Rockford when I got the the west side of Wis, and they kept me almost all the way to Ripon.... Great group of controllers...
I can remember back 30+ years ago when learning the fly down in Fla,,, Mia was a group 1 TCA and Orlando/ MCO was a TRSA.. I got seamless FF every time I requested it.....
At face value it looks to me that Chicago is pretty stingy with OUR VFR airspace.... IMHO..
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I have done it without FF with no regrets.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
And that's the first source of pilots' ire towards C90: You guys are the ONLY facility I know of where you don't accept VFR handoffs. Whether it's the controllers or the computers or an LOA buried in a filing cabinet somewhere, we don't know. All we know is that it can be a pain to fly around your area.
And we ***** about them.
But this is a problem. WHY don't the computers at C90 accept VFR handoffs when (nearly?) every other class B facility does?
What are the standards? Who does the auditing?
Things have gotten significantly better in the last few years with the new crop of controllers, but they were REALLY bad for a REALLY long time, and the organizational inertia will keep it from being as good as other facilities for quite a while even if the intent is to get to that standard, which I doubt it is.
I appreciate the work the two of you do to try and help the little guys, but there's a long way to go.
Yes. N90 is truly excellent, as is NorCal. They really set the standard for class B's.
I don't. According to the FAA, total ops for each area per day:
C90 area B, B&C, BC&D totals: 2391, 3085, 3942
N90 area B, B(&C), BC&D totals: 3364, 3364, 5174
So, they're working far more traffic, it's coming from more airports, and they're doing what (from the pilot's perspective) is a much better job. That's not the fault of the individual C90 controllers, but C90 and higher level FAA ATO management hasn't done as well getting C90 to work as they have other facilities.
ORD is busy. That's the only thing that's busier in those facilities. N90 has three primary class B's, more class D's than C90, and those D's have around twice as much traffic apiece as those in the C90 area. The B's have more combined traffic than ORD as well.
And now there's some evidence of the real problem. Why is this the case? And why would the FAA design a facility to have more traffic per controller?
MarkZ
En-Route
Agreed....
I have left Jackson Hole headed to OSH.. Got FF right after take off from SLC center, they transferred me to Denver center 20 minutes later,,, who kept me till Rapid City / Ellsworth Approach, they watched me all the way across SD and hooked me up with Minn center ??,, that lead me to Rockford when I got the the west side of Wis, and they kept me almost all the way to Ripon.... Great group of controllers...
I can remember back 30+ years ago when learning the fly down in Fla,,, Mia was a group 1 TCA and Orlando/ MCO was a TRSA.. I got seamless FF every time I requested it.....
At face value it looks to me that Chicago is pretty stingy with OUR VFR airspace.... IMHO..
Ben, I'm cashing in your two beer offer. Come to Chicago. Take a tour of our facility. If you think, after seeing what we do, the same, I will buy the beer for "debrief." I'll win this wager, but I don't hold my breath you'll take me up on it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hank S
En-Route
Hey Ben, take Mark on a flight and let him see for himself how his fellow controllers handle you. Otherwise, you're wasting time and (av)gas to go there.
Mark and I butt heads sometimes as we have different opinions on stuff... With that said, I promised him two beers and he earned it so I guess I need to settle the debt... I don't think Mark and the "other" controller that has been posting in this tread are bad guys, I just think the entire management culture at the facility is flawed and seems to not be correcting a obvious defect in their procedures that clearly treats VFR FF traffic as pond scum.. If one person had a bad experience I would chalk that up to differing opinions... When numerous pilots chime in with almost identical complaints then it paints a convincing picture of a problem...
I would love to visit that ATC center as the whole controller concept fascinates me when it works like a well oiled machine.. The main problem is I have absolutely NO interest in visiting the land of major corruption, Rohn Emanual or all the negatives that corrupt city has become...
One way to rattle their cage legally would be to climb up to the ceiling of the Bravo airspace + 50 feet, throttle back to max flight time duration and spend 10 hours or so circling the entire area and make the whole shift of controllers work their asses off segregating the all the effected IFR traffic from me... Oh yeah,,, to spice it up, I would cycle my transponder off for 10 minutes and on for 1-3 minutes while squawking Mode A only....
If they don't want to talk to us lowly VFR traffic then they can spend all day pulling out their hair guessing when and where my target would pop up on their screen each time.... Totally legal and not violating any FAR's..
....
Jus kiddin....
.....................................maybe...
MarkZ
En-Route
Well, that's one way to go about doing things...or you could just land outside of the land of Rahm (I know a nice private airstrip that would probably let you park and tie down for free), settle on riding with a ward of the state, and learn something.
Scary thought, I know.
If you want to see a well oiled machine, you would by visiting any Chicago ATC facility. Heck, come in on one of my regular days off and I'll arrange a trifecta.
As long as there is beer at the end of that tunnel.
MarkZ
En-Route
You would do well visiting our facilities. PM me, I'd be happy to help you get a tour and learn something.
asgcpa
En-Route
Mark
I'd love to get a tour this summer when my son is home from college. He passed his PPL ride in mid March. I think he would enjoy it as well.
Thanks for your assistance in March coming back from GRB. My instructor and I appreciated it.
I'll PM you my cell number.
Arthur
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
If he doesn't, I will. I'm fascinated with ATC and the job of a controller.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Chi-Center and Chi-TRACON are two different facilities, in two different cities and do two different things. Make sure you get to visit the TRACON.
Chi-Center does a great job. It is in Aurora.
Chi-TRACON is in Elgin. I was there a couple of years ago. A lot of the new controller would go sit a FF position, the day I was there it was unmanned. The day I was there I plugged with a few controllers and asked a lot of questions. I also got to see how IFRs FF came into the facility and how they were passed on to the controller that would handle us. That was really useful as it gave me an idea of how to get into the system better instead of being told to wait thirty minutes and try again when I could not get airborne and get my clearance.
The thing is that Chi-APP (the TRACON) is woefully understaffed for their traffic and has management with a really bad attitude towards anyone other that the heavy metal going into and out of ORD. It has gotten better the last few years. But it has a long way to go.
I have dealt with Bravo approach for Atlanta, Tampa, Miami, Memphis, San Diego, Kansas City, Cleveland, etc. and all gave me better service. Sorry Chi-App guys, nothing personal, someone has to be last. But look at it this way. You guys have the best opportunity to make things better!!! If you are paying attention here to us, THANKS!!!! That is already a big improvement. The last time C90 had a survey for the pilots that used the facility, the only way to weigh in was to let them know which airline you worked for. SIGH!
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flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Mark,
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that your computers are one source of the problem. We know that the controllers are not the source of the problem, management is.
What we're b*tching about is the fact that it is that way. Again, I do not know of ANY other facilities that won't take a VFR handoff these days. None. Zip, zero, nada. I've flown from Wisconsin to the East, West, and Gulf coasts multiple times and there are no other facilities where I have to call up cold again like I have to in Chicago.
Example: Flying to Philly for the FlyBQ. Madison hands off to Rockford, Rockford drops me approaching your airspace. South Bend hands off to Fort Wayne hands off to Toledo hands off to Mansfield hands off to Cleveland hands off to Akron hands off to Youngstown hands off to Pittsburgh hands off to New York Center hands off to Harrisburg hands off to Philly.
There are busier facilities than C90, there are more complex facilities than C90. Why is C90 the only one that still won't take a VFR handoff, ever? I know you probably don't have the answer to that question because it's either C90 management or somewhere up the food chain from them. But that's the question here.
At the controller level - We used to get bad service from C90 controllers as well. This has VASTLY improved in the last several years. Thanks for being part of that.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Rockford wouldn't take a handoff from Madison when I did a dual XC last summer.
flibmeister
Pre-takeoff checklist
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flibmeister
All of those airports have a characteristic that (until relatively recently) Chicago O'Hare lacked: a runway configuration that allows directional flow. That characteristic vastly simplifies internal airspace design, which is the reason that the facilities you mention have always been able to provide better handling for non-primary airport traffic transiting their airspace than Chicago has.
The recent improvements in handling of non-primary airport traffic by C90 isn't reflective of better attitudes of management or controllers-- it's reflective of the fact that ORD's new east/west primary runway configuration allowed an internal airspace redesign that, for the first time, makes it practical to provide such service.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
That's odd. Where were you going?
MarkZ
En-Route
You're shocked? You do realize that VFR flight following services are provided on a workload permitting basis, don't you? If a controller is busy, the first thing to go away are additional services.
Rockford, Milwaukee, and south bend have all denied flight following before. It happens. We terminate the aircraft and tell them they can try the next guy but he was a bit busy.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Ease up there. Yes, I know exactly where VFR FF is on the totem pole. I just generally haven't had a problem with Rockford.
Milwaukee, OTOH, can be a pain, but at least these days they do take VFR handoffs. They just tend to pull some tricks that I don't like (for example, terminating me less than a mile from my home field's D-space rather than handing me off) so I often don't bother getting FF from them, whether it's a cold-call or offered by Madison (the direction I'm most frequently coming from when headed to Milwaukee on VFR FF).
But as an example - Milwaukee didn't take VFR handoffs 10 years ago either. Now, they do. So, it's quite possible for someone to decide to flip that switch on the computers. The powers that be at C90 just haven't gotten there yet.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Wait for it..... RFD LOL.
Just called them up shortly after Madison terminated.
MarkZ
En-Route
It happens. Sometimes I'm too busy to take down a VFR flight plan, so I have the previous controller terminate the aircraft and have him call me. A few minutes later the traffic dies down a bit and I call out on the frequency, "VFR awaiting advisories, go ahead." It buys me some time.
Fair enough. However, I think fiveoboy's point was that it can happen anytime, and it doesn't necessarily mean that one controller or facility is better than another. They might be unable to open a position that normally would accommodate additional services.
It's not a trick. If the tower does not have radar services or a D-Brite, then the tower cannot provide any further radar service to you. Hence, approach terminates radar services prior to switching you to the tower. We will do the same thing on instrument approaches to non-controlled airports or towers that do not have adequate coverage to the ground.
At the center, VFR handoffs between ARTCC's are fairly streamlined, and I've never experienced an issue with them. I was able to accurately input the aircraft's requested route (if other than direct) and the altitude information. It was a simple command, and those controllers who could type fast could input the command in the time it took them to say "maintain VFR, XXX altimeter XX.XX." I rarely had an issue forcing flight plan data to an ARTS computer either, however I have had times when SBN, FWA, or GUS approach would ask me not to do so as they couldn't accommodate a VFR at the time. They would ask I put the aircraft on their frequency for the same reason I stated above.
At approach, automated handoffs between approach controls have more to do with inputting a complex string of commands that will not give an accurate depiction of what the aircraft is doing. I can tag up an aircraft on the ARTS in no time. Inputting a VFR flight plan that passes through the NAS to other facilities is another matter, and that does take more time than when I was at the center. Moreover, ARTS VFR FP message only tells the ARTS where the flight plan goes. It only understands an entrance fix (departure airport) and an exit fix (destination airport). If there is another fix the pilot is flying before destination, I cannot put that in the message from my scope. In other words, even when an approach controller inputs the flight plan information from the scope, either flight data needs to update the info in the FDIO or the controller has to manually coordinate information with the next controller anyway.
All this coordination takes place behind the scenes. When traveling between ARTS facilities while VFR and told to contact the next facility, you may think everything is fully automated. In reality, controllers are effecting manual coordination of your flight prior to switching you to the next facility.
Very informative.... Thanks Mark... I am starting to grasp the whole working set up of enroute. approach and departure FF actions while VFR.... On all my local flights I ask the tower and they coordinate with SLC and I will get a squawk code starting with 0***.. On my flights to SLC, 1.5 hour flight in my death trap, I get FF with a 0*** code too and they will clear my into the Bravo every time. They fly you through the "notch' next the Air Force base and we follow I-15 to 17 /34 at SLC.. On my short trips to Idaho Falls for shopping at Home Debit. Lowes and when I get a craving for Outback Steakhouse,, in 35 minute flight, I also get the 0*** code and once I am off JAC ,slc center gives me FF to IDA and hands me off to the tower 7-10 miles out...
On the trips to OSH I get FF and SLC center will load in my destination on the "strip" ?? cause every time I get handed off as I cross the country, the first thing the controller will say is " so, you are going to the big show" which I interpret to mean they all know my destination on initial call up...
I now owe ya 3 beers for your wonderfully informative post...
On the trips to OSH I get FF and SLC center will load in my destination on the "strip" ?? cause every time I get handed off as I cross the country, the first thing the controller will say is " so, you are going to the big show" which I interpret to mean they all know my destination on initial call up...
I now owe ya 3 beers for your wonderfully informative post...
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flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
No, the "trick" isn't "Radar services terminated, contact Timmerman Tower 120.5." I'd be perfectly happy with that. I don't expect radar services, though I think MWC does have a D-Brite.
The "trick" is "Radar services terminated, squawk VFR, frequency change approved" leaving me to attempt a cold-call in the few seconds I have left before busting into the D-space. I've not made it a couple of times, but luckily our tower guys are pretty laid back and haven't called the FSDO on me yet.
flibmeister
Pre-takeoff checklist
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flibmeister
One tidbit of trivia that I doubt even Mark and Jim are aware of:
For a very long time, no one had trouble getting VFR Advisories from Chicago Tracon. There was a VFR Advisory frequency published on the charts and the service was available starting around 7am until traffic died off in the evening. The tracon had a flat-top scope dedicated to the position and VFR Advisories was the first control position that new controllers would checkout on.
The controller working VFR Advisories owned no airspace-- every aircraft he was talking to was actually operating in airspace for which another controller bore responsibility. The controller working VFR Advisories would provide advisories, vector VFR traffic to avoid the ORD traffic flows, or would point out pertinent ORD traffic to the VFR's, then instruct them to "maintain visual separation" when the traffic was reported in sight. Although the controller that owned the airspace was expected to be cooperative, it was understood that the VFR Advisory controller was supposed to work around his traffic, not the other way around.
This system actually worked pretty well. It provided good service to pilots, and was educational for controllers new to the tracon, since they had to monitor the entire airspace while they observed and worked around the general tracks and altitudes being used by the ORD traffic.
There was only one minor glitch-- it was totally illegal.
Controllers are only allowed to work aircraft in their own airspace, unless they "point out" the aircraft to the controller that does own the airspace, tell that controller what they propose to do with the aircraft, and receive permission to do it. The additional workload such procedures would impose on the already busy O'Hare arrival and departure controllers made that impossible, so things were done the "O'Hare Way" instead: the VFR Advisories controller made sure that his aircraft were squawking a discrete code from the VFR block, and every controller was required to "quick look" such targets-- and assume that any aircraft on such a code was an "automatic pointout".
The practice ended in the '80s, after a Washington evaluation team was sent to ORD to assess various "O'Hare Way" procedures and bring them into compliance with the 7110.65.
For a very long time, no one had trouble getting VFR Advisories from Chicago Tracon. There was a VFR Advisory frequency published on the charts and the service was available starting around 7am until traffic died off in the evening. The tracon had a flat-top scope dedicated to the position and VFR Advisories was the first control position that new controllers would checkout on.
The controller working VFR Advisories owned no airspace-- every aircraft he was talking to was actually operating in airspace for which another controller bore responsibility. The controller working VFR Advisories would provide advisories, vector VFR traffic to avoid the ORD traffic flows, or would point out pertinent ORD traffic to the VFR's, then instruct them to "maintain visual separation" when the traffic was reported in sight. Although the controller that owned the airspace was expected to be cooperative, it was understood that the VFR Advisory controller was supposed to work around his traffic, not the other way around.
This system actually worked pretty well. It provided good service to pilots, and was educational for controllers new to the tracon, since they had to monitor the entire airspace while they observed and worked around the general tracks and altitudes being used by the ORD traffic.
There was only one minor glitch-- it was totally illegal.
Controllers are only allowed to work aircraft in their own airspace, unless they "point out" the aircraft to the controller that does own the airspace, tell that controller what they propose to do with the aircraft, and receive permission to do it. The additional workload such procedures would impose on the already busy O'Hare arrival and departure controllers made that impossible, so things were done the "O'Hare Way" instead: the VFR Advisories controller made sure that his aircraft were squawking a discrete code from the VFR block, and every controller was required to "quick look" such targets-- and assume that any aircraft on such a code was an "automatic pointout".
The practice ended in the '80s, after a Washington evaluation team was sent to ORD to assess various "O'Hare Way" procedures and bring them into compliance with the 7110.65.
MarkZ
En-Route
Having a BRITE does not make a tower a radar or IFR tower. Almost all contract towers are VFR towers, meaning there is nothing for the approach controller to "hand off" to. Since radar service cannot be continued, the approach controller must then effect manual coordination as stated before, or terminate service and have the aircraft make the "cold call."
The MKE controllers are absolutely correct in their execution. I have only visited their facility. Having never worked there, having only visited the tower cab and not in their TRACON, it would be grossly unprofessional of me to speculate whether or not the controller should provide that additional service.
If you are flying in close proximity to the boundary of the class Delta airspace you are destined to, why would you not prompt the approach controller for a frequency change prior to it becoming an issue?
If being "handed off" is that important, I suggest you start flying IFR.
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MarkZ
En-Route
Thanks Flibmeister for the good write up, I did not know that.
I don't know if it's just me or I fly at the right times, but while I may not get handoffs, South Bend (or whoever is the one to the east down low) and Milwaukee have always given me a "For further advisories, try Chicago Approach on 1xx.xx") and I've gotten them.
The only fun one was the time I was IFR barreling down towards Chicago land. I got handed off and the Chicago controller woman was issuing instructions a mile a minute. Finally getting a break to check in, I just said "Navion 5327K, Cancelling IFR, going up the lake shore" there was a brief pause and she came back "Excellent!"
The only fun one was the time I was IFR barreling down towards Chicago land. I got handed off and the Chicago controller woman was issuing instructions a mile a minute. Finally getting a break to check in, I just said "Navion 5327K, Cancelling IFR, going up the lake shore" there was a brief pause and she came back "Excellent!"
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
That's fine - I just wish they'd do it before the tower's airspace is right in my face.
I'll call field in sight at 10 miles if I've got it and there's space on the frequency to do so. By 7 miles I just want to be let off the frequency so I can cold-call. Those two are only a minute apart, so if the controller gets busy at the wrong time, I'm stuck. If I call the field 20 miles out, I might as well not get flight following at all, since I'd only be on for the part of the flight I'm in the least busy area.
Maybe I'm just spoiled because I used to be based at MSN, which has an awful lot of excellent controllers (2 Archie League awards there since I started flying), and a culture of helpfulness brought in by the recently-retired tower chief who had been there since 1990. I've never had a single problem or even an annoyance from them.
Jmcmanna
Pre-takeoff checklist
I've been here long enough to work the illegal VFR advisories position....I was a trainee, certified on 2 south satellite sectors only, and they basically pencil-whipped me off on VFR advisories for OSH week. It was a great position, I was plenty busy most of the time, too. It was really disappointing to see the position go away because it put a lot of work back on the other sectors whose primary job was working IFR traffic. The FAA would rather have controllers put their attention on answering continuous calls from VFRs, which did cause a lot of denials for flight following at the time...so airplanes would be working all around the class B not talking to anyone at all. In this case, they put their own interpretation of their own rules ahead of common sense and safety.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I had to circle over the Windmills off hwy 12 for 15 minutes waiting for radio contact so I could continue inbound. They were busy. Other than that, not once an issue. The approach and tower guys are always a pleasure to deal with.
That and I'll never understand why a moderate (4000 or so) IFR altitude through Chicago land isn't obtainable but I can sit there and get in the way of MDW and ORD departures climbing out as I'm doing the lakeshore at 10,5 because "I don't want to go to KELSI." (to paraphrase Elvis Costello).
slavinger
Pre-Flight
Wow, that was a busy thread I started! Thank you ATC guys Mark, Jmcmanna, and flibmeister for the good/useful commentary, and pilots as well. Having read the conversations, I didn't see anyone saying "don't do it". We'll keep our eyes open on the 18-th, will try to get FF, and will depart UGN westbound climbing to 11.5, then turn SE and head towards GYY. May the force be with us. 
Jmcmanna
Pre-takeoff checklist
Assuming you're staying along the south edge of the lake, if SBN terminates the flight following....contact Chicago on 128.2 as you fly by VPZ and tell us how that goes. If mgmt between the facilities says not to hand off VFR's, give the actual controllers a chance and call us.