VFR only airports....IFR plan?

[genna]

What exactly does VFR Only airport mean? Obviously, no approaches.

But can one file an IFR plan out of it and receive a clearance?
a. If the airport is VMC
b. if the airport is IMC

Or, obviously only works in case a., do I need to file from a fix and depart VFR? Or file a mix plan?
What is the best approach?

 

[EdFred]

a) yep
b) yep

Done it both ways - with a clearance void on b.

The ninnies will be a long shortly to tell you how the world will end if you depart IMC, though.

 

[genna]

a) yep
b) yep

Done it both ways - with a clearance void on b.

The ninnies will be a long shortly to tell you how the world will end if you depart IMC, though.

Yeah, I understand the drawbacks of departing the airport I cannot return to. I'm not planning on doing the b). I was simply trying to be thorough in my understanding of options. Don't really want to be getting clearances in the air if the minimums are on the low side

 

[MAKG1]

a) yep
b) yep

Done it both ways - with a clearance void on b.

The ninnies will be a long shortly to tell you how the world will end if you depart IMC, though.

Don't be a jerk. There are obviously additional risks to departing an airport with no ODP in IMC. In some cases, it may be massively stupid. Big rocks won't get out of your way and radar is not likely at low altitude.

 

[mscard88]

And we're offffffffffff!

 

[RileyMitchum]

Taking off in IMC from a VFR only airport, would be similar to departing from a regular airport with weather below the approach minimums, right? You can depart, but you can't come back.

 

[Joshuajayg]

N12345, make 180 for traffic, upset ninny at you 12:00.

 

[Brad Z]

Taking off in IMC from a VFR only airport, would be similar to departing from a regular airport with weather below the approach minimums, right? You can depart, but you can't come back.

Pretty much. Whether it is unsafe is a matter of many factors and one's own risk tolerance. I've taken off from VFR grass strips that were just a few miles from an airport with an ILS. I was responsible for obstacle separation up to ATC's minimum vectoring altitude (MVA), but had an out if I needed to land quickly. We're not talking zero-zero take-offs; just ceilings that were below the MVA.

 

[Velocity173]

A. Yes. Either pick the clearance up on the ground via phone, GCO or local freq. Or depart VFR and pick it up in the air. Second option better have good VFR so you're not spinning around beneath a layer trying to get a hold of ATC. If not good VFR, you might get "are you able to maintain your own obstruction and terrain clearance until reaching (altitude)." That's so they put the job of maintaining terrain sep on you until you get up to their MVA.

B. Yes. Obviously need to get clearance before you depart. With no ODP, you better do a good assessment of the area for obstacles / terrain.

I Issued the clearance probably a hundred times at a local airport. While it has a surveillance approach, it didn't matter as far as the clearance. It's just a non towered airport clearance:

"Mooney 12345, cleared to XYZ as filed, when entering controlled airspace fly heading 060, maintain 2,000, expect 7,000 one zero minutes after departure. Departure control frequency 125.4, squawk 4501. Clearance void If not off by 1030. If not of by 1030, contact (name) approach NLT 1100 and advise of intentions. Time, 1015."

If they have someone on final, they might give you a "hold for release, expect (minute) delay." They'll get back to you when that aircraft cancels with a release and then a void time like above.

 

[MAKG1]

Taking off in IMC from a VFR only airport, would be similar to departing from a regular airport with weather below the approach minimums, right? You can depart, but you can't come back.

In some sense, yes.

Some airports with approaches don't have ODPs either. If there are any terrain or obstructions nearby, ODPs are really helpful. While not required, they do keep you off the rocks, and not using them in IMC is a rather substantial additional risk.

 

[RileyMitchum]

In some sense, yes.

Some airports with approaches don't have ODPs either. If there are any terrain or obstructions nearby, ODPs are really helpful. While not required, they do keep you off the rocks, and not using them in IMC is a rather substantial additional risk.

I would assume though, that a VFR only airport, would have no approaches, and no ODPs. So taking off, you would be on your own until ATC could see you. Am I wrong in assuming that a VFR only airport would have no ODPs?

 

[Clark1961]

a) yep
b) yep

Done it both ways - with a clearance void on b.

The ninnies will be a long shortly to tell you how the world will end if you depart IMC, though.

The world will end if you depart IMC.

(Sorry I couldn't post earlier)

 

[Clark1961]

I would assume though, that a VFR only airport, would have no approaches, and no ODPs. So taking off, you would be on your own until ATC could see you. Am I wrong in assuming that a VFR only airport would have no ODPs?

ATC doesn't have to see you to accept and fly a clearance.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

When departing from a strip that doesn't appear on the IFR chart, you can file from that strip but you are going to be responsible for your own terrain clearance.

If you want to go IFR to the field and the clouds are below the MEA, your best way to get there is to just divert to the closest airport with and approach that can get you below the clouds. Once under, and you are able to maintain vfr, you can cancel your ifr and continue vfr to your field. If you know before you takeoff the ceilings are below MEA, there isn't a reason not to do this. If ceiling is above the MEA, just file to your little field and if appropriate, file an alternate. Make sure you bring enough gas for alternate even if its VFR, things can change quickly and grass fields can become unusable much faster than an improved strip.

*** this is where people are going to freak out.
I don't think taking off from an airport without an approach back is much more dangerous from a no approach field as it is to one with an approach. In an emergency, I could use and ipad or iphone to fly to a grass field with GPS like precision, with a stratus you could fly to the strip with LPV like precision and synthetic vision (if setup correctly). Not saying those are good ideas on the regular, but in a serious emergency, that is an option that could save your life and potentially get you safely to 200' or so right in front of the threshold.

 

[genna]

The airport in question is in a valley with 700ft AGL mountains left and right of the runway fairly close, but there is a clear stretch on runway heading and to the left. No obstacles to clear. There are 4 of airports with approaches within 20nm including one 10nm away with an ILS at roughly a departure heading. The other direction(not wind favorable) is a lot worse with trees and obstacles.

This is a VFR only and daytime only airport. 2500 paved, no lighting, no services, no ODP.

In any case, I'm not that experienced with IMC/IFR, mountains(however small), or even this aircraft in this situation to fly this at near gross weight in any kind of low ceiling conditions. We would be taking off from it near 11am and it's promising to be hot and humid. So, no, I'm not doing any of that.

 

[MAKG1]

I would assume though, that a VFR only airport, would have no approaches, and no ODPs. So taking off, you would be on your own until ATC could see you. Am I wrong in assuming that a VFR only airport would have no ODPs?

I really don't think you're wrong at all. Except "see" is in the radio contact sense.

Some airports that DO have approaches don't have ODPs either.

 

[MAKG1]

*** this is where people are going to freak out.
I don't think taking off from an airport without an approach back is much more dangerous from a no approach field as it is to one with an approach. In an emergency, I could use and ipad or iphone to fly to a grass field with GPS like precision, with a stratus you could fly to the strip with LPV like precision and synthetic vision (if setup correctly). Not saying those are good ideas on the regular, but in a serious emergency, that is an option that could save your life and potentially get you safely to 200' or so right in front of the threshold.

You are putting a hell of a lot of faith in a device that just isn't going to give you ANYWHERE NEAR LPV precision.

I've seen iPads claim 10m accuracy, when in fact they were more than 0.3 miles off, verified photographically. And that was at 1000 AGL. That would barely keep you in protected airspace at all, let alone lined up with a threshold.

Maybe a nonprecision or at least circling approach, but LPV? No way.

 

[MAKG1]

The airport in question is in a valley with 700ft AGL mountains left and right of the runway fairly close, but there is a clear stretch on runway heading and to the left. No obstacles to clear. There are 4 of airports with approaches within 20nm including one 10nm away with an ILS at roughly a departure heading. The other direction(not wind favorable) is a lot worse with trees and obstacles.

This is a VFR only and daytime only airport. 2500 paved, no lighting, no services, no ODP.

In any case, I'm not that experienced with IMC/IFR, mountains(however small), or even this aircraft in this situation to fly this at near gross weight in any kind of low ceiling conditions. We would be taking off from it near 11am and it's promising to be hot and humid. So, no, I'm not doing any of that.

700 foot hills are enough to be a concern if they are within several miles of the airport. That would be high risk.

Honestly, though, the really big risks are from small uncharted obstructions near the airport. Because there is no approach, there is no "clearway" surveyed.

 

[Joshuajayg]

This kind of goes back to the idea of departing a "Class G" airport. Yes, you can do it IFR. Many airports that have IFR approaches aren't Class E to the surface. So that in between distance is Class G. You can fly there IMC. The difference is if you fly IFR in Class G, you don't have to be in an IFR flight plan. Once you enter the E airspace in IMC, you have to be on an IFR flight plan.

So what I am assuming is a "VFR Only" airport is one without any approaches or departure procedures. You are required to maintain your own obstacle clearance after departing until on radar or until on an airway.

My home airport is in a canyon with 1000 ft. cliffs on both sides and is day only, VFR Only. I would not depart IFR simply because I would have trouble maintaining terrain clearance.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

You are putting a hell of a lot of faith in a device that just isn't going to give you ANYWHERE NEAR LPV precision.

I've seen iPads claim 10m accuracy, when in fact they were more than 0.3 miles off, verified photographically. And that was at 1000 AGL. That would barely keep you in protected airspace at all, let alone lined up with a threshold.

Maybe a nonprecision or at least circling approach, but LPV? No way.

I did mention in an emergency situation right?
If I was departing somewhere like L88 with a 300 ft overcast. If my engine started to lose power, I would use my iPad to get back to the runway over trying to get to Santa Maria or Taft (if clear).
It's easy to say one shouldn't even have take off, but things happen and somebody may have to. and that is a realistic scenario. No it is not entirely reliable, but if you don't consider it as an option, it can't be an option

 

[James331]

There is also such thing as a alternate departure airport, if it were me I'd find a close by airport which I could land at in the stated wx conditions, ether is was VMC or had a suitable approach.

The ceiling and MVA also can play a factor.

But there are even people who have departed IFR from a lake in a seaplane, it's possible, just something to think about with eyes wide open.

I did mention in an emergency situation right?
If I was departing somewhere like L88 with a 300 ft overcast. If my engine started to lose power, I would use my iPad to get back to the runway over trying to get to Santa Maria or Taft (if clear).
It's easy to say one shouldn't even have take off, but things happen and somebody may have to. and that is a realistic scenario. No it is not entirely reliable, but if you don't consider it as an option, it can't be an option

You NEVER have to, even medevacs have no fly criteria.

Trusting a iPad (and yes I fly with one) to get you down in LIFR level weather, thats a really bad idea, I'd give you 50/50 survival based on skills, and if you're putting yourself into that situation your skills are leaning towards the not surviving side. Lawn dart

Looking at L88, the only way would launch out of there into low IFR, would be if I could land VMC at Taft if needed.

 

[MAKG1]

I did mention in an emergency situation right?
If I was departing somewhere like L88 with a 300 ft overcast. If my engine started to lose power, I would use my iPad to get back to the runway over trying to get to Santa Maria or Taft (if clear).
It's easy to say one shouldn't even have take off, but things happen and somebody may have to. and that is a realistic scenario. No it is not entirely reliable, but if you don't consider it as an option, it can't be an option

Have you not considered that you can make a bad situation worse with incorrect guidance?

The RIGHT thing to do at that airport is fly runway heading and land straight ahead. Lots of fields and flat terrain in that direction. The impossible turn with an iPad for guidance? Even in VMC, that's a fatal mistake.

Especially in a situation you have never trained for.

Frankly, leaving L88 with a 300 foot overcast is mind-numbingly stupid. Not only will you crash if ANYTHING goes wrong, it's so isolated that no one will find you for months.

 

[James331]

The coyotes will find him

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Have you not considered that you can make a bad situation worse with incorrect guidance?

The RIGHT thing to do at that airport is fly runway heading and land straight ahead. Lots of fields and flat terrain in that direction. The impossible turn with an iPad for guidance? Even in VMC, that's a fatal mistake.

Especially in a situation you have never trained for.

Frankly, leaving L88 with a 300 foot overcast is mind-numbingly stupid. Not only will you crash if ANYTHING goes wrong, it's so isolated that no one will find you for months.

The "impossible turn" involves complete engine failure. Yes, straight ahead and find a field is correct. A partial power loss means you have time to figure out where you want to crash, maybe even return to the airport.

Use a simulator and try to return to get down to a runway using nothing but your iPad and altimeter, it's shocking how close you can get.

There are a variety of circumstances that could call for taking off in such a situation, none of them are "for fun"

 

[James331]

The partial power is even worse for some folks.

Gives you ideas that you may have time you very possibly don't.

Just cause it's still in it's death throughs, doesn't mean it's going to buy you a second further, might even be making matters worse running.

 

[flyingron]

There's nothing that says you can't fly IFR to an airport without approaches. There are specific rules in the regulations to cover this.

There are no restrictions on departing airports (for most of us) PERIOD. You just need to be able to obtain an IFR clearance BEFORE entering controlled airspace. This can be anything from communicating directly with ATC on the ground or the old "VOID TIME" clearance that has existed for decades.

 

[MAKG1]

The "impossible turn" involves complete engine failure. Yes, straight ahead and find a field is correct. A partial power loss means you have time to figure out where you want to crash, maybe even return to the airport.

Use a simulator and try to return to get down to a runway using nothing but your iPad and altimeter, it's shocking how close you can get.

There are a variety of circumstances that could call for taking off in such a situation, none of them are "for fun"

Your iPad absolutely does not work the same way on a simulator as it does IRL.

That 0.3 mile error I found was an eye opener. I thought they were a lot better than that, especially since Foreflight claimed 10m.

Just because it can draw an extended centerline and show a pretty little airplane on it doesn't mean it's right.

If you have a partial power loss (and it stays partial power), the "impossible turn" heads down in IMC is still a suicidal approach. Even if the engine keeps running, a correct impossible turn is steep, and turning your head to deal with an iPad on your lap is going to give you vertigo at the worst possible time. There is NO WAY you can experience this on a simulator. You're fooling yourself.

If you can climb, it's FAR safer to fly a real approach someplace that has it, or fly to VMC. If you can't climb, land straight ahead.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

Your iPad absolutely does not work the same way on a simulator as it does IRL.

That 0.3 mile error I found was an eye opener. I thought they were a lot better than that, especially since Foreflight claimed 10m.

Just because it can draw an extended centerline and show a pretty little airplane on it doesn't mean it's right.

If you have a partial power loss (and it stays partial power), the "impossible turn" heads down in IMC is still a suicidal approach. Even if the engine keeps running, a correct impossible turn is steep, and turning your head to deal with an iPad on your lap is going to give you vertigo at the worst possible time. There is NO WAY you can experience this on a simulator. You're fooling yourself.

If you can climb, it's FAR safer to fly a real approach someplace that has it, or fly to VMC. If you can't climb, land straight ahead.

Does your opinion change if you have a gtn 750 onboard or are you just set on attempting a cross xcountry on a dying engine or ditching in a field. Whether you are going towards an airport or planning on ditching in a field you'd only have 300' to make you decision, that decision would be a lot easier if you got lucky and your gps worked and you end up on a runway. Doesn't work and you are in the same situation as if you never tried the iPad approach, ditching in a field.

 

[James331]

Does your opinion change if you have a gtn 750 onboard or are you just set on attempting a cross xcountry on a dying engine or ditching in a field. Whether you are going towards an airport or planning on ditching in a field you'd only have 300' to make you decision, that decision would be a lot easier if you got lucky and your gps worked and you end up on a runway. Doesn't work and you are in the same situation as if you never tried the iPad approach, ditching in a field.

If it's an airport without a IAP, don't figure you're getting back to that runway once you go actual if it's hard IFR regardless of equipment or who makes your tablet.

 

[MAKG1]

Does your opinion change if you have a gtn 750 onboard or are you just set on attempting a cross xcountry on a dying engine or ditching in a field. Whether you are going towards an airport or planning on ditching in a field you'd only have 300' to make you decision, that decision would be a lot easier if you got lucky and your gps worked and you end up on a runway. Doesn't work and you are in the same situation as if you never tried the iPad approach, ditching in a field.

I think you are dramatically overestimating the amount of time you have for a decision. If your engine sputters, you're landing straight ahead. PERIOD. In IMC, no matter what's there, maybe with SMALL corrections once you're under the ceiling. You only have seconds to configure for landing and not dig a big hole. If you can keep climbing at a sensible airspeed, you can revise that at a higher altitude. Otherwise, you will kill yourself. Navigating to another airport is an option at high altitude. Turning back at low altitude is almost never an option. Once you're in IMC, a moment of vertigo is all it takes for you to die.

 

[EdFred]

I can't tell, is the plane climbing, or is the sky falling? How do you ever leave the FBO?

 

[TheGolfPilot]

I think you are dramatically overestimating the amount of time you have for a decision. If your engine sputters, you're landing straight ahead. PERIOD. In IMC, no matter what's there, maybe with SMALL corrections once you're under the ceiling. You only have seconds to configure for landing and not dig a big hole. If you can keep climbing at a sensible airspeed, you can revise that at a higher altitude. Otherwise, you will kill yourself. Navigating to another airport is an option at high altitude. Turning back at low altitude is almost never an option. Once you're in IMC, a moment of vertigo is all it takes for you to die.

I once had an oil leak while flying a 172. The engine continued to run but it was rather obvious it wasn't going to run for very long. I could have just said F it and landed on the nearest field, or freeway, or I could have done what I did and landed at the nearest airport. It was a diversion and had I continued thinking the grass is greener further along I wouldn't be here today. When an engine starts acting weird you need to do something right away or you will end up somewhere you don't want to be. Obviously, when things start going wrong you climb if able then you point yourself in a safe direction. If someone is unable to make a 180 degree turn in IMC then level the plane out, they probably aren't fit to fly in IMC let alone takeoff into a 300' ceiling.
Not every must land ASAP situation is a total engine failure

 

[flyingron]

If it's an airport without a IAP, don't figure you're getting back to that runway once you go actual if it's hard IFR regardless of equipment or who makes your tablet.

There's no guarantee of such even if the departure airport has approaches.

 

[Doggtyred]

What exactly does VFR Only airport mean? Obviously, no approaches.

But can one file an IFR plan out of it and receive a clearance?
a. If the airport is VMC
b. if the airport is IMC

Or, obviously only works in case a., do I need to file from a fix and depart VFR? Or file a mix plan?
What is the best approach?

For both situations: Follow the instruction on your clearance that says "enter controlled airspace on a heading of........ " Everything between takeoff and entry to Class E is on you.

 

[MAKG1]

I once had an oil leak while flying a 172. The engine continued to run but it was rather obvious it wasn't going to run for very long. I could have just said F it and landed on the nearest field, or freeway, or I could have done what I did and landed at the nearest airport. It was a diversion and had I continued thinking the grass is greener further along I wouldn't be here today. When an engine starts acting weird you need to do something right away or you will end up somewhere you don't want to be. Obviously, when things start going wrong you climb if able then you point yourself in a safe direction. If someone is unable to make a 180 degree turn in IMC then level the plane out, they probably aren't fit to fly in IMC let alone takeoff into a 300' ceiling.
Not every must land ASAP situation is a total engine failure

If you do a 180 deg standard rate turn in IMC, you will completely miss the airport. Yes, you should be able to do this if you're instrument rated, but it won't help your situation,

If you do a >180 deg STEEP turn in IMC while fiddling with an iPad during an engine failure, that's stupid.

I don't think you've thought this through adequately.

 

[flyingron]

For both situations: Follow the instruction on your clearance that says "enter controlled airspace on a heading of........ " Everything between takeoff and entry to Class E is on you.

That is if you're not already in a surface area

I don't know why departure in class G is a bigger issue than arrival in class G (which nearly every IFR flight to airports without surfaces areas, even those WITH approaches involves).

 

[jkgoblue]

I Issued the clearance probably a hundred times at a local airport. While it has a surveillance approach, it didn't matter as far as the clearance. It's just a non towered airport clearance:

I was flying along and a pilot asked if he could get a practice surveillance approach. The controller said, "oh, we don't do that here..." I didn't realize that it's not available everywhere. Just assumed in an emergency, they could do it.

 

[Velocity173]

I was flying along and a pilot asked if he could get a practice surveillance approach. The controller said, "oh, we don't do that here..." I didn't realize that it's not available everywhere. Just assumed in an emergency, they could do it.

Yeah most of your Cs and military have them but obviously not everywhere. Radar Mins section will have the airports listed that provide them. What's unusual about the airport (ARW) I was referring to, is it isn't at the primary airport. The airport is close enough to the base where the radar can still see the aircraft at MDA. Back then, it was the only way to get in. Now, they've got GPS approaches that get them lower.

I suppose any controller could try and pull off an ASR in an emergency but without having the appropriate map and procedures, it would be sketchy at best. I think there was a controller in DAB that tried to vector an emergency aircraft for some sort of quasi ASR. I think the pilot got disoriented and crashed. Really, trying to pull off something like that, the controller would be looking at some liability issues. Then again, I've seen an F-15 on fumes intercept an ASR at 3 miles out. Do what ya gotta do I guess.

 

[James331]

There's no guarantee of such even if the departure airport has approaches.

Of course, there are no guarantees on anything in life.

That said, presuming you have enough juice left in the engine to hold altitude, having a instrument approach to get you back down is some salvation, having no approached and no nearby VMC, well you're ether going to have a interesting story to tell yourself, or by others at your service/wake.

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah most of your Cs and military have them but obviously not everywhere. Radar Mins section will have the airports listed that provide them. What's unusual about the airport (ARW) I was referring to, is it isn't at the primary airport. The airport is close enough to the base where the radar can still see the aircraft at MDA. Back then, it was the only way to get in. Now, they've got GPS approaches that get them lower.

I suppose any controller could try and pull off an ASR in an emergency but without having the appropriate map and procedures, it would be sketchy at best. I think there was a controller in DAB that tried to vector an emergency aircraft for some sort of quasi ASR. I think the pilot got disoriented and crashed. Really, trying to pull off something like that, the controller would be looking at some liability issues. Then again, I've seen an F-15 on fumes intercept an ASR at 3 miles out. Do what ya gotta do I guess.

There is an ASR at KOKH that Whidbey Approach runs. Making up an ASR approach anywhere would be very sketchy like you said. If a pilots problem was loss of Nav instruments then "mentally overlaying" an ASR approach to an existing IAP with the final approach course on the video map would be doable by an experienced GCA controller.