VFR on Top

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ruthsindelar

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OK, I admit it. 2,500 plus ATP pilot and I have never asked for VFR on Top. Shame on me but it is on my new year's list of resolutions. Ask for VFR on Top before my birthday (which is rapidly approaching).

Any advice from those of you have used it? Also, if I see conditions detierating or get close to my destination and need to descend through a layer, I assume I just tell the controller and ask for regular IFR again?

Something like "N123, I'd like to stay on my IFR clearance but cancel VFR on Top at this time" Other suggestions and other tips in general for VFR on Top.

Also, in Class B, I guess I would only need regular class B visibility and cloud clearance (3 & clear of clouds). Agreed?

Thanks
 
ruthsindelar said:
OK, I admit it. 2,500 plus ATP pilot and I have never asked for VFR on Top. Shame on me but it is on my new year's list of resolutions. Ask for VFR on Top before my birthday (which is rapidly approaching).
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Why?

Uhh, why is VFR-on-top on your list, not why is your birthday approaching.

Any advice from those of you have used it? Also, if I see conditions detierating or get close to my destination and need to descend through a layer, I assume I just tell the controller and ask for regular IFR again?

Something like "N123, I'd like to stay on my IFR clearance but cancel VFR on Top at this time" Other suggestions and other tips in general for VFR on Top.
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Just ask for an IFR altitude, "Metropolis Center, N123, request 4,000."

Also, in Class B, I guess I would only need regular class B visibility and cloud clearance (3 & clear of clouds). Agreed?
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Agreed.
 
Only time I used it was as a pop-up to get above a thin layer. I have had several times when I've climbed VFR through a hole in the clouds, stayed VFR above the clouds, and then descended on the other side (VFR again).

Otherwise, if I've been in a situation where I've wanted to maintain VFR on top on an IFR flight plan, I just ask for a different altitude.
 
You don't cancel IFR when you are VFR on top.

It's pretty common out west, not so much in my experience in the east.

I've done it maybe 2x a year, always out west.
 
ruthsindelar said:
OK, I admit it. 2,500 plus ATP pilot and I have never asked for VFR on Top. Shame on me but it is on my new year's list of resolutions. Ask for VFR on Top before my birthday (which is rapidly approaching).

Any advice from those of you have used it? Also, if I see conditions detierating or get close to my destination and need to descend through a layer, I assume I just tell the controller and ask for regular IFR again?

Something like "N123, I'd like to stay on my IFR clearance but cancel VFR on Top at this time" Other suggestions and other tips in general for VFR on Top.

Also, in Class B, I guess I would only need regular class B visibility and cloud clearance (3 & clear of clouds). Agreed?

Thanks
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VFR on Top is an IFR operation, so going from to a hard altitude has no effect on your IFR status (AIM 5-5-13).

I've flown VFR-on-top hundreds of hours and found it to be a valuable tool out here in the wild west.

Getting it is as easy as asking ("Center, Buzzbomb 2345X requests VFR-on-top") or putting VOTP into the altitude block on your flight plan. Your initial altitude assignment will be one far above the tops and your clearance will include something like "Report VFR on top."

Bob Gardner

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Getting it is as easy as asking ("Center, Buzzbomb 2345X requests VFR-on-top") or putting VOTP into the altitude block on your flight plan. Your initial altitude assignment will be one far above the tops and your clearance will include something like "Report VFR on top."


Bob Gardner
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Thanks for the reply everyone.

Bob - do you put VOTP in your altitude block or VTOP? Also, can you share why you have chosen to fly it so often out West? What does VFR on Top offer you that you have found it useful to use? Thanks

Everyone - what is the procedure for changing altitude with VFR on Top. Can you just advise center or do they need to first approve it. Can you climb & descend? Once you leave an altitude, can you come back to it or is there an issue with that. Also, if center is busy and starts to re-route for traffic, can a VFR on Top clearance increase your chances of avoiding the re-route (since the pilot is now responsible for traffic/obstacle avoidance?).
 
ruthsindelar said:
Bob - do you put VOTP in your altitude block or VTOP?
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The entry is OTP.

Everyone - what is the procedure for changing altitude with VFR on Top. Can you just advise center or do they need to first approve it. Can you climb & descend? Once you leave an altitude, can you come back to it or is there an issue with that. Also, if center is busy and starts to re-route for traffic, can a VFR on Top clearance increase your chances of avoiding the re-route (since the pilot is now responsible for traffic/obstacle avoidance?).
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ATC approval for altitude changes is not required, you should advise of altitude changes for traffic information purposes.

You can climb and descend at will while VFR-on-top with a few restrictions. FAR 91.177 still applies, you can't go below the minimum IFR altitude. You can't climb into Class A airspace. You must comply with FAR 91.155 VFR visibility and cloud clearance criteria and fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in FAR 91.159.

For ATC separation purposes you're treated like a VFR aircraft, but ATC does provide separation for VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace and in TRSAs. You should escape reroutes for separation purposes where separation is not provided but you're still an IFR operation so if a preferential arrival route is applicable you'll get a reroute for that. Same for a reroute due to a navaid outage.
 
uh, what does VFR on Top mean? I heard it out of context one time and thought it just meant that you were VFR and got caught on top of the clouds. I take it I was wrong.:redface:
 
JOhnH said:
uh, what does VFR on Top mean? I heard it out of context one time and thought it just meant that you were VFR and got caught on top of the clouds. I take it I was wrong.:redface:
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What you describe is called VFR over-the-top, that's a VFR operation. VFR-on-top is an IFR operation.

From the P/CG:

VFR-ON-TOP− ATC authorization for an IFR
aircraft to operate in VFR conditions at any
appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in 14 CFR and
as restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this
authorization must comply with the VFR visibility,
distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR
altitudes specified in 14 CFR Part 91. The use of this
term does not relieve controllers of their responsibility
to separate aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace
or TRSAs as required by FAAO JO 7110.65.

See also AIM para 4-4-8.


From FAR 1.1 General Definitions:

IFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over-the-top on an IFR flight plan when cleared by air traffic control to maintain “VFR conditions” or “VFR conditions on top”.

Over-the-top means above the layer of clouds or other obscuring phenomena forming the ceiling.

VFR over-the-top, with respect to the operation of aircraft, means the operation of an aircraft over-the-top under VFR when it is not being operated on an IFR flight plan.
 
ruthsindelar said:
Thanks for the reply everyone.

Bob - do you put VOTP in your altitude block or VTOP? Also, can you share why you have chosen to fly it so often out West? What does VFR on Top offer you that you have found it useful to use? Thanks

Everyone - what is the procedure for changing altitude with VFR on Top. Can you just advise center or do they need to first approve it. Can you climb & descend? Once you leave an altitude, can you come back to it or is there an issue with that. Also, if center is busy and starts to re-route for traffic, can a VFR on Top clearance increase your chances of avoiding the re-route (since the pilot is now responsible for traffic/obstacle avoidance?).
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Steve knows the drill better than I do, as always.

I used to do a lot of box flying to and from the other side of the Cascades and to and from Oakland in the wee sma hours. Heading back from Eastern Washington, it was easier to file OTP when it was severe clear so as to get into the system early and then convert to a hard altitude when I looked ahead and noticed that the entire Puget Sound Basin was full of clouds. All I had to do was "request hard altitude," get one, and it was easy-squeasy from there on in.

Not quite the same thing coming back from OAK but the same freedom made OTP desirable. Just a nice tool to have in your kit if you need it. Never thought of it as a means of avoiding congestion, but we lead more relaxed lives over here.

Bob
 
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it can be handy when you want to stay on an ifr flight plan but not comply with high MEA's..around mountains etc...
 
I have used it a few times in training when we get a low layer of clouds that require an actual Instrument approach. We will climb through the clouds and then request VFR on top to practice holding or other IFR maneuvers. It seems to help ATC in that they don't have to keep as much separation between us and other aircraft.

Brian
 
taters said:
it can be handy when you want to stay on an ifr flight plan but not comply with high MEA's..around mountains etc...
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VFR-on-top still required compliance with IFR minimum altitudes, and so is not authorized below the MEA (or the MOCA within 22 miles of the navaid).
 
Ron Levy said:
VFR-on-top still required compliance with IFR minimum altitudes, and so is not authorized below the MEA (or the MOCA within 22 miles of the navaid).
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Wouldn't challenge that aspect with respect to regs...however Denver CTR does hands that out like candy over the mountains if you want it...have used it many times going west.
The magic phrase is "I can maintain my own terrain and obstacle clearance"..CTR will then issue VFR on top... that alleviates the high MEA problem. From ATC perspective its not much different than operating IFR below MIA/MVA prior to obtaining an IFR clearance in the air.
 
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taters said:
Wouldn't challenge that with respect to regs...however Denver CTR hands that out like candy over the mountains...have used it many times going west.
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Since ATC doesn't set altitudes for VFR-on-top, and you are not automatically required (only encouraged) to report altitude changes while VFR-on-top, you, not the controller, are the party responsible for compliance with this rule. Thus, a pilot's decision to fly below the MEA/MOCA (or other minimum IFR altitude) is not ATC's responsibility, and ATC's failure to issue such a restriction does not authorize the pilot to violate 91.177. The fact that they don't call a pilot on that should not be taken as FAA approval of such flight below the 91.177 minimum altitude while maintaining VFR-on-top. The fact that you said you'd "maintain your own terrain and obstacle clearance" merely places on you the entire responsibility for compliance with 91.177.
 
DVR CTR...Piper.N33X Im gonna need you to climb to 16000 for MEA..

Piper N33X Unable ..need to stay below 13000

DVR CTR..Ok would you like VFR on Top? Otherwise Im gonna have to cancel you. Can you maintain your own terrain/obstacle clearance?

Piper N33X affirmative

DVR CTR..maintain VFR on top advise any altitude changes etc...


Thats generally how it goes on the lacking planes Ive ferried west....it very well could be a twisted use of this VFR-on top...but thats how is been offered to me in the past..

With the exception of cloud clearance reqs in VFR on top. .I perceive the perspective from ATC the same as climbing IFR from an apt that does not have a obstacle DP...avoiding terrain is your responsibility until above MIA/MVA...even though you may be climbing in IMC.
 
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taters said:
Thats generally how it goes on the lacking planes Ive ferried west....it very well could be a twisted use of this VFR-on top...but thats how is been offered to me in the past..
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Like I said, it's your ticket, not theirs, on the line if this goes wrong.
With the exception of cloud clearance reqs in VFR on top. .I perceive the perspective from ATC the same as climbing IFR from an apt that does not have a obstacle DP...avoiding terrain is your responsibility until above MIA/MVA...even though you may be climbing in IMC.
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I don't believe your perception is accurate from a regulatory viewpoint even if ATC may see it that way. Kinda like when someone in a warbird got clearance from tower for a low pass, and then got busted by the Inspector present for violating the speed and low-flying rules. The pilot's defense was that he was cleared by Tower for the low approach. The FAA said the pilot should have known both that Tower's only responsibility is separation of aircraft on the runway, and that Tower not only didn't waive the speed and altitude rules, but didn't have the authority to do so, either. Final score: FAA 1, pilot 0.
 
taters said:
it can be handy when you want to stay on an ifr flight plan but not comply with high MEA's..around mountains etc...
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If an MEA is applicable to your route you cannot descend below it while operating VFR-on-top.
 
taters said:
Wouldn't challenge that aspect with respect to regs...however Denver CTR does hands that out like candy over the mountains if you want it...have used it many times going west.
The magic phrase is "I can maintain my own terrain and obstacle clearance"..CTR will then issue VFR on top... that alleviates the high MEA problem. From ATC perspective its not much different than operating IFR below MIA/MVA prior to obtaining an IFR clearance in the air.
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There's nothing magical about that phrase. You must comply with FAR 91.177 when operating VFR-on-top, ATC cannot authorize a deviation from the regulation.
 
taters said:
DVR CTR...Piper.N33X Im gonna need you to climb to 16000 for MEA..

Piper N33X Unable ..need to stay below 13000

DVR CTR..Ok would you like VFR on Top? Otherwise Im gonna have to cancel you. Can you maintain your own terrain/obstacle clearance?

Piper N33X affirmative

DVR CTR..maintain VFR on top advise any altitude changes etc...


Thats generally how it goes on the lacking planes Ive ferried west....it very well could be a twisted use of this VFR-on top...but thats how is been offered to me in the past..

With the exception of cloud clearance reqs in VFR on top. .I perceive the perspective from ATC the same as climbing IFR from an apt that does not have a obstacle DP...avoiding terrain is your responsibility until above MIA/MVA...even though you may be climbing in IMC.
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There is nothing in FAA Order 7110.65 that suggests FAR 91.177 does not apply to aircraft operating VFR-on-top.
 
roncachamp said:
If an MEA is applicable to your route you cannot descend below it while operating VFR-on-top.
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In the few situations I have used it I may not have been on an airway.
This is about the only time I have ever been anything other than purely IFR or VFR. I dont dispute 91.177 but it sure didnt cross my mind the way that it was given to me by ATC..all I know is that I was happy to avoid the terrain on my own until I could get to a place above MIA were I was ATC's responsibility again...sounds like just going to VFR flight following is the best solution for next time..thanks for the insight though:)
 
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taters said:
...sounds like just going to VFR flight following is the best solution for next time..
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If you cannot maintain the required IFR altitude, and you're in VMC, cancelling IFR and continuing VFR would be the appropriate solution.
 
taters said:
In the few situations I have used it I may not have been on an airway.
This is about the only time I have ever been anything other than purely IFR or VFR. I dont dispute 91.177 but it sure didnt cross my mind the way that it was given to me by ATC..all I know is that I was happy to avoid the terrain on my own until I could get to a place above MIA were I was ATC's responsibility again...sounds like just going to VFR flight following is the best solution for next time..thanks for the insight though:)
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You cannot operate below the MIA while on a clearance to maintain VFR-on-Top.

I know, necroposting. Happened to see this while looking for something else.
 
taters said:
In the few situations I have used it I may not have been on an airway.
This is about the only time I have ever been anything other than purely IFR or VFR. I dont dispute 91.177 but it sure didnt cross my mind the way that it was given to me by ATC..all I know is that I was happy to avoid the terrain on my own until I could get to a place above MIA were I was ATC's responsibility again...sounds like just going to VFR flight following is the best solution for next time..thanks for the insight though:)
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They probably asked "N12345, can you maintain your own terrain & obstruction clearance until reaching xxx ft." Thats to take responsibility off of them in the climb. As stated above though, you can't cruise at OTP below the MIA.
 
With "VFR ON TOP", can you deviate from your filed route as well? I was thinking this may be helpful if was above the the majority of clouds but dodging large build-ups.
 
JasonM said:
With "VFR ON TOP", can you deviate from your filed route as well? I was thinking this may be helpful if was above the the majority of clouds but dodging large build-ups.
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No, you'd have to get approval to deviate just as you would on a normal IFR clearance.
 
JasonM said:
That stinks :( I don't see any benefit to asking for "VFR ON TOP".
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Agreed.

Could a possible benefit be to avoid a traffic-related reroute? For example if you wanted to go right through a major hubs airspace instead of around? If you're VFR on top, the controller is not responsible for separation, right?

Then again, the controller would probably not be familiar with it so probably would not give it to you... Either that, or they would say "ok, IFR cancellation received...." ;)
 
The benefit as I see it is greater flexibility in some situations since ATC isn't required to provide separation. I've used it a few times to allow another aircraft to climb/descend thru' my altitude.
 
ruthsindelar said:
.............
Any advice from those of you have used it? Also, if I see conditions detierating or get close to my destination and need to descend through a layer, I assume I just tell the controller and ask for regular IFR again?

Something like "N123, I'd like to stay on my IFR clearance but cancel VFR on Top at this time" Other suggestions and other tips in general for VFR on Top.
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Don't use the word "cancel", it might be misinterpreted. Instead just tell the controller something like "I'd like to get back on a hard altitude" and suggest what altitude you're requesting.
 
ruthsindelar said:
............
Everyone - what is the procedure for changing altitude with VFR on Top. Can you just advise center or do they need to first approve it. Can you climb & descend? Once you leave an altitude, can you come back to it or is there an issue with that. Also, if center is busy and starts to re-route for traffic, can a VFR on Top clearance increase your chances of avoiding the re-route (since the pilot is now responsible for traffic/obstacle avoidance?).
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Altitude your discretion, you're expected to operate at a VFR altitude at or above MIA and (I assume) advise ATC of any altitude changes.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
The benefit as I see it is greater flexibility in some situations since ATC isn't required to provide separation. I've used it a few times to allow another aircraft to climb/descend thru' my altitude.
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John, My closest call in my airline career was in 1985 flying a TWA 767 from LAX to PHL. (probably told you this one before.)

We are just out of 14,500 departing LAX. ATC never called traffic until they yelled "Conflict Alert!"

My F/O was flying (sharper than a tack.) He rolled into a 30 degree left bank and narrowly avoided a mid air with a commuter airline head-on flying IFR/14,500 VFR on top.

No TCAS at that time.

Had we collided that would have likely ended VFR on top for commuter airlines. Also, a 767 with some 160 souls would have taken out a few folks in the city.

But I digress from the point you were making. ;)
 
dans2992 said:
Could a possible benefit be to avoid a traffic-related reroute? For example if you wanted to go right through a major hubs airspace instead of around? If you're VFR on top, the controller is not responsible for separation, right?
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Wrong. Major hubs will be Class B airspace and in Class B airspace the controller is responsible for separation of all aircraft; IFR/IFR, IFR/VFR. and VFR/VFR. Separation standards are less with VFR aircraft but VFR-on-Top would actually hamper the controller because aircraft must remain clear of clouds.
 
roncachamp said:
Wrong. Major hubs will be Class B airspace and in Class B airspace the controller is responsible for separation of all aircraft; IFR/IFR, IFR/VFR. and VFR/VFR. Separation standards are less with VFR aircraft but VFR-on-Top would actually hamper the controller because aircraft must remain clear of clouds.
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Ok, so what if you were overflying the Class B? Would it help then?
 
taters said:
it can be handy when you want to stay on an ifr flight plan but not comply with high MEA's..around mountains etc...
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You can't operate VFR on top below the MEA. See Steve's post above.
 
aterpster said:
You can't operate VFR on top below the MEA. See Steve's post above.
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How 'bout below MIA as per 91.177 (a)(2)(i) direct beyond navaid service volumes and below radar coverage?
Reason I ask is some years ago I was right seat with a friend flying an old Cessna 175, departed Lewistown, MT westbound --D-> t'ward the Whitehall VOR, wx at LWT was just a scattered layer improving to clear as we proceeded west. We filed for 12,000 and when we picked up the clearance on the ground Center said he needed us at 14,000 for radar. We took it and advised Center that we weren't too sure this old Skylark would climb that high but we'll try. When we're just above twelve thousand and barely climbing I told my buddy "I think you might as well cancel, we ain't gonna' make it to fourteen" but before he could key the mic' Center called and offered us VFR on TOP .....so we took it and leveled at 12,500'. Not sure if that was legal? But we did it :D
 
RMCN172RG said:
If you're VFR on top you will need to hear "Cleared into the Class Bravo":mad3:
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Nope, you are still on an IFR clearance, all that changes is Altitude rules, but you must still operate above MEA or MORA as appropriate for direct routing.
 
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