VFR in the mountains - Part II

Salty

Salty

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Salty
Ok, hopefully people will be constructive here. This is in reference to the scenario described here. I would like to discuss ways to deal with this if I had not been able to do it VFR. Again, the issue was that I could not safely get visual on the airport while remaining VFR due to the cloud bases being right around the mountain peaks.

I am going to explain the plan I was considering at the time. I would like to hear thoughts and better ideas. I honestly don't think it would have been a big deal because the cloud bases were so high. I just would have needed to violate the VFR cloud separation rules.

The airport I was going into had an RNAV approach. I had plates, a VFR gps in the panel, and foreflight on my iPad. My plan was to tell ATC what my situation was and ask for vectors for as long as I could stay in contact with them and fly the approach a 1000 feet above the numbers on the approach. Letting ATC in on the plan would allow them to keep other IFR traffic away from me. I figured, with 3000 foot AGL cloud bases, I should have broken out still being pretty darn high and following the approach with the VFR GPS would keep me close enough to have a margin for error. I think it would have been very easy to do and other than violating the VFR cloud rules, no issue at all.
 
Sounds like a good plan to me, although I’m not sure 1000 ft above minimums would be necessary.

Biggest thing to me is coordinating with ATC to ensure separation, as you indicated.
 
Absent an emergency, I'm not relying on non-IFR-certified avionics to fly an approach for anything other than situational awareness. I'd rather add it to my list of the probably more than a dozen times I've diverted for weather.

OTOH, given an IFR capable and current aircraft and a current instrument rating, I might be willing to ask ATC for a popup clearance to vector and bring me down through the cloud layer as low as they could to see if I broke out before then.
 
Salty said:
Ok, hopefully people will be constructive here. This is in reference to the scenario described here. I would like to discuss ways to deal with this if I had not been able to do it VFR. Again, the issue was that I could not safely get visual on the airport while remaining VFR due to the cloud bases being right around the mountain peaks.

I am going to explain the plan I was considering at the time. I would like to hear thoughts and better ideas. I honestly don't think it would have been a big deal because the cloud bases were so high. I just would have needed to violate the VFR cloud separation rules.

The airport I was going into had an RNAV approach. I had plates, a VFR gps in the panel, and foreflight on my iPad. My plan was to tell ATC what my situation was and ask for vectors for as long as I could stay in contact with them and fly the approach a 1000 feet above the numbers on the approach. Letting ATC in on the plan would allow them to keep other IFR traffic away from me. I figured, with 3000 foot AGL cloud bases, I should have broken out still being pretty darn high and following the approach with the VFR GPS would keep me close enough to have a margin for error. I think it would have been very easy to do and other than violating the VFR cloud rules, no issue at all.
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I have not flown in this area for many years, but when I did communications with ATC at low altitude was an issue, so maybe that works into the scenario.

In the event of an emergency, you are allowed to violate the rules to the extent necessary. Your plan is I have an emergency, but I really don’t want to declare an emergency. So from an ATC perspective, do you have an emergency or not because you want me to hold any IFR aircraft and I have to know you have landed before I clear an IFR aircraft for an approach.

Your best action would be to declare the emergency with ATC and get priority handling. IFR traffic would not be an issue and ATC would use all their resources to help you. Maybe they provide you a better option.

In an non-IFR aircraft (no gyros) and where I had to descend through clouds, I would want to minimize time in the clouds. If I could fly visual to any fix on the approach that would allow me to descend rather rapidly into the circle to land protected area would be an option. I would prefer to descend through a hole into the circle to land protected area if that was available.

There are a bunch of other stuff you could toss in the scenario like RAIM outage and non certified GPS, but if the signal is good, the IPAD is certainly accurate enough to put you over the airport.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Absent an emergency, I'm not relying on non-IFR-certified avionics to fly an approach for anything other than situational awareness. I'd rather add it to my list of the probably more than a dozen times I've diverted for weather.

OTOH, given an IFR capable and current aircraft and a current instrument rating, I might be willing to ask ATC for a popup clearance to vector and bring me down through the cloud layer as low as they could to see if I broke out before then.
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that doesn’t help at all with this scenario.
 
This was not a non gyro aircraft. I have a functional AI and vfr gps with moving map on the panel.
 
does your scenario rule out "divert to the nearest VFR field" and all other options and only warrant a response to the one and only scenario you present?
 
Salty said:
that doesn’t help at all with this scenario.
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I guess if you can't divert to a VFR field, you've created a nice flatlander-in-the-mountains emergency for yourself, in which case violate whatever rules you want and build upon the quality of the decisions which got you into that situation.
 
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dmspilot said:
And yet you descended into the wrong valley and couldn't find the airport several times? I think there are a lot of vagaries in your scenario and it's making it difficult to relate to, understand, or analyze.
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Did he descend into the wrong valley? I don't recall that detail.
I thought he navigated between alternates in search for an acceptable VFR airport until fuel made that no longer a feasible strategy?
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Did he descend into the wrong valley? I don't recall that detail.
I thought he navigated between alternates in search for an acceptable VFR airport until fuel made that no longer a feasible strategy?
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From the other thread: "I did actually drop down into a valley a couple times where the clouds allowed, until I realized it wasn't the valley my airport was in"
 
Did you have to go through a cloud or just near them? What airspace were you in? I think the options are, in order of my preference:

1. Proceed in legal VMC
2. Ask for a special VFR clearance so you can remain clear of clouds in controlled airspace until you reach uncontrolled airspace (if applicable) and continue remaining clear of clouds
3. Divert in legal VMC
4. Declare an emergency and fly vectors until reaching legal VMC
 
What altitude were tops and bases? It was legal VFR once you were below the layer, so only constraint was to get below layer. First choice would be a legal (cloud separation) hole. Not finding that, I'd contact ATC and do one of two things. If I could see a hole that was big enough to stay visual, but not legal, ask if for a descent through the hole (SVFR). This would be only if it was a stable layer, so not likely for hole to close up while descending. Failing that, get a pop-up to descend through the layer, ideally an approach to a runway that is aligned with the valley. Both of these based on being unable to fly to an alternate that would be VFR the whole way. That last one would actually be my first choice in the aircraft with the instruments you said you had. (AI, non-WAAS GPS) unless you could descend VFR to your original destination.
 
If it's me, I'm not continuing unless I'm underneath the bases and my escape route is down valley VFR. So in your scenario I would have 180'd it until I found a hole to go underneath. Now, I wasn't sure if you had holes but they didn't meet Class E standards? That's a little different in my mind, especially if fuel was a factor. Not sure if that helps. In my head - I barely trust certified IFR instruments so flying a nonIFR bird would have me even more conservative. My decision matrix for using ForeFlight or a VFR GPS to penetrate IMC is only when everything else goes wrong and I have no other options left.
 
iamtheari said:
2. Ask for a special VFR clearance so you can remain clear of clouds in controlled airspace until you reach uncontrolled airspace (if applicable) and continue remaining clear of clouds
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Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall mention of the specific airport or that he was above a Class E or higher surface area.
 
Salty said:
This was not a non gyro aircraft. I have a functional AI and vfr gps with moving map on the panel.
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Then I would declare an emergency and excute an approach that put me in the middle of tbe circle to land protected area.
 
eman1200 said:
does your scenario rule out "divert to the nearest VFR field" and all other options and only warrant a response to the one and only scenario you present?
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The field was vfr. And it was the second alternate already. Fuel did not allow another diversion.
 
dmspilot said:
And yet you descended into the wrong valley and couldn't find the airport several times? I think there are a lot of vagaries in your scenario and it's making it difficult to relate to, understand, or analyze.
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Clouds are not uniform. A moving map does not give you the delta between the cloud bottoms at that point and the mountains at that point. There was no way to tell for sure if I was going to be able to get to the airport until I got below the cloud deck.
 
ATC will not be allowed to do your approach+1000 senario. What they can do is vector you through a layer for a visual approach. However, they have a Minimum Vectoring Altitude (which isn’t published), and can vector you to that altitude to try to get ground contact…if you are IFR rated and in an IFR equipped aircraft. I personally would attempt this in my C170 which has the min required equipment (only single VOR with no DME).

You could have asked what the MVA is for that area to see if that would get you below deck.

Breaking VFR cloud clearances and doing RNAV with handhelds is a big no no. Follow the rules, and only break them as needed in an emergency.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess if you can't divert to a VFR field, you've created a nice flatlander-in-the-mountains emergency for yourself, in which case violate whatever rules you want and build upon the quality of the decisions which got you there.
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It was a vfr field.
 
texasclouds said:
ATC will not be allowed to do your approach+1000 senario. What they can do is vector you through a layer for a visual approach. However, they have a Minimum Vectoring Altitude (which isn’t published), and can vector you to that altitude to try to get ground contact…if you are IFR rated and in an IFR equipped aircraft. I personally would attempt this in my C170 which has the min required equipment (only single VOR with no DME).

You could have asked what the MVA is for that area to see if that would get you below deck.

Breaking VFR cloud clearances and doing RNAV with handhelds is a big no no. Follow the rules, and only break them as needed in an emergency.
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I am describing an emergency situation.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall mention of the specific airport or that he was above a Class E or higher surface area.
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It wasn't stated in this thread. If SVFR isn't an option, then cross this item off the list and proceed to the next one. But if it is an option, it could be a better one than diverting or declaring an emergency.
 
Diverting was off the table. I had already diverted twice and was getting low on fuel. Svfr is not a solution. The airport was vfr, but below a deck I could not get through safely without breaking vfr cloud rules.
 
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eman1200 said:
was this the scenario?

View attachment 132626
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No. Add a cloud in the valley where the airport is, just barely above the peaks. < 500 feet and me above the cloud deck.and the same clouds in the other two valleys on each side. Then put a hole in the clouds right over the field, or at least raise the base at that point to 3000 agl
 
What was the airport? I am curious how tight the terrain was to it.

Emergencywise, call ATC, do what you need. Tell them how they can help.
 
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Again, if you’re familiar with the area, not nearly as big an issue. I had already diverted twice and had not done any planning for this airport. But the weather was a bit better there and I did eventually get in safely.
 
Salty said:
No. Add a cloud in the valley where the airport is, just barely above the peaks. < 500 feet and me above the cloud deck.and the same clouds in the other two valleys on each side. Then put a hole in the clouds right over the field, or at least raise the base at that point to 3000 agl
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Man, you draw that sht.
 
When I had to make an emergency/precautionary descent into Andrews, NC and had a broken layer, I just flew until I was over the airport, and did a tight circling descent over the airport like we did in commercial training. I would have done the same if it was overcast. I was on with center and let them know what was up. "Do what you gotta do," was their response.
 
I can't think of anything else. With a hole in the clouds, that's the choice, or go over the ridge between the cloud and ground. Not legal, but emergency.

With a vfr gps (no VOR?), you're using foreflight for the approach plate? Or you don't have one? No way I would voluntarily try to make an approach in the mountains without a plate and something to guide me.
 
Vfr on top. Above mountains. Low on fuel. Vfr panel. Not an enviable situation. Wasn't there, and didn't read the other thread. But...this vfr flatlander is probably declaring.
 
Racerx said:
Vfr on top. Above mountains. Low on fuel. Vfr panel. Not an enviable situation. Wasn't there, and didn't read the other thread. But...this vfr flatlander is probably declaring.
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Ok. But that doesn't solve your problem. Then what are you going to do?

Reminds me of

 
well you had to stay 1000' above those clouds
salty1.png


so the obvious first step is to cut your cloud clearance in half


salty2.png
 
You didn't take my advice and brush up on your incredibly wrong understanding of weather, or did this happen more than 2 years ago?
www.pilotsofamerica.com

What's going on with these clouds?

I took this time lapse yesterday after noticing that the clouds seemed to be building, but not going anywhere while out with my dog. This is in Bozeman and these mountains are the south end of the Bridger Range. I'm sure I've seen this a thousand times but this is the first time I thought to get...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
Salty said:
Ok, hopefully people will be constructive here. This is in reference to the scenario described here. I would like to discuss ways to deal with this if I had not been able to do it VFR. Again, the issue was that I could not safely get visual on the airport while remaining VFR due to the cloud bases being right around the mountain peaks.

I am going to explain the plan I was considering at the time. I would like to hear thoughts and better ideas. I honestly don't think it would have been a big deal because the cloud bases were so high. I just would have needed to violate the VFR cloud separation rules.

The airport I was going into had an RNAV approach. I had plates, a VFR gps in the panel, and foreflight on my iPad. My plan was to tell ATC what my situation was and ask for vectors for as long as I could stay in contact with them and fly the approach a 1000 feet above the numbers on the approach. Letting ATC in on the plan would allow them to keep other IFR traffic away from me. I figured, with 3000 foot AGL cloud bases, I should have broken out still being pretty darn high and following the approach with the VFR GPS would keep me close enough to have a margin for error. I think it would have been very easy to do and other than violating the VFR cloud rules, no issue at all.
Click to expand...
I doubt you could talk a Controller into that.
 
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