VFR flight put into a hold???

[jspilot]

I was flying back from KPOU( Poughkepsie) to KISP( Islip Long Island) this evening on a fantastic day to fly. The typical New York crazy skies were amazingly congested around White Plains( no surprise there!). I was cruising along and the approach controller issued an instruction for a plane to hold south of the Carmel VOR at 3,500 feet. The pilot pleaded with the controller that he was VFR only to be told that he still needed to hold do to traffic and delays at the airport due to congestion. The pilot repeated that he was VFR- to which he was told, well that puts you last in the arrivals.

My question is, how can a VFR pilot be put into a hold? I admittedly do not know any published holds because I'm not a IFR rated pilot. I said to myself, " thank goodness I was not asked to do this as I'd just do circles south of the VOR.

Any idea what happened here?

 

[AdamZ]

I think he can be told to remain clear of the Bravo and hold south of CMK but he can't be told told to hold on the 165 radial standard turns or hold at a specific intersection.

The pilot can decide to climb over the bravo or go under it or around it.

 

[frfly172]

Usually the controller tells VFR aircraft to stay out of the controlled airspace and they will call them later. Happens on a regular basis at my and ack during summer months.

 

[Shepherd]

Absolutely they can put you on hold. Happened to me in exactly the same spot, last year.

 

[fiveoboy01]

And, what action by the pilot does that entail?

I'm a VFR pilot, and would have no clue what that meant other than maybe start circling at your present altitude and location.

 

[roncachamp]

I was flying back from KPOU( Poughkepsie) to KISP( Islip Long Island) this evening on a fantastic day to fly. The typical New York crazy skies were amazingly congested around White Plains( no surprise there!). I was cruising along and the approach controller issued an instruction for a plane to hold south of the Carmel VOR at 3,500 feet. The pilot pleaded with the controller that he was VFR only to be told that he still needed to hold do to traffic and delays at the airport due to congestion. The pilot repeated that he was VFR- to which he was told, well that puts you last in the arrivals.

My question is, how can a VFR pilot be put into a hold? I admittedly do not know any published holds because I'm not a IFR rated pilot. I said to myself, " thank goodness I was not asked to do this as I'd just do circles south of the VOR.

Any idea what happened here?

KHPN is treated like it was the core airport in Class C airspace. It shouldn't be, but it is what it is. The approach controller doesn't actually have the authority to require this VFR pilot to hold, but he's not getting into KHPN if he doesn't.

 

[marcoseddi]

Interesting

 

[frfly172]

KHPN is treated like it was the core airport in Class C airspace. It shouldn't be, but it is what it is. The approach controller doesn't actually have the authority to require this VFR pilot to hold, but he's not getting into KHPN if he doesn't.

The controller has the power ,and some of them like to exercise it to the max.

 

[Approach_controller]

Controller probably should have said after that exchange, "how much fuel do you have?" Assuming the pilot wasn't cutting it close on fuel, the next thing I'd have said would have forgone the unfamiliar hold instruction and asked if several 360 could be flown VFR or remain outside the Bravo, whichever worked best for him/her.

Were I not an IFR rated pilot I would have stated I cannot hold, but I'll be glad to spin circles. I'd also be very aware of my fuel state in congested airspace. Give the controller some time to build a hole for you if you can (and lets face it. Flying minimum fuel reserves into the N90 area isn't the smartest thing) If fuel is becoming short, but non emergency, chime in again. Beyond that, declare.

 

[SkyHog]

I seem to recall reading something in the AIM about VFR holds, but for the life of me, I can't find it now.

Am I misremembering that?

 

[jspilot]

So just to clarify for the non locals. HPN( white plains- class d airport) is below the bravo and this controller was clearly sequencing arrivals into HPN as well as dealing with guys like me going south. This was not an instruction to remain clear of the bravo. It was strictly sequencing.

So if you can be put in a hold, but have no clue how to do a proper hold what do you do? I would say "I'm not familiar with the hold procedure. I'd be Happy to circle with 360's out here for a while." I guess I'm asking because I can't imagine a VFR pilot needs to know the holds for the busy airports... Or should I?

 

[poadeleted20]

I think he can be told to remain clear of the Bravo and hold south of CMK but he can't be told told to hold on the 165 radial standard turns or hold at a specific intersection.

The pilot can decide to climb over the bravo or go under it or around it.

I agree.

 

[comanchepilot]

well, now might be a good time to look at a hold procedure in an IFR manual [think AIM] and decide how you would best accomplish a 'hold' request from a controller VFR . . .

I'm being serious - it would be much easier on you and your passengers than flying 360's - want the shorthand version?

Fly a heading - note the heading. Do a 180 degree turn. Fly for a minute or so [you have a clock, right?] then turn back in a 180 degree turn and fly that same heading for a min or so - or - fly it for 2 minutes. No one is going to care VFR -

Stay out of airspace you have not been cleared into and burn some avgas . . .

Oh, and btw SLOW DOWN. This is much easier on you and your pax at 90kts / 100mph.

 

[redtail]

If I'm VFR and he knows it, I probably would have done one minute racetracks (left turns) south of the VOR. That way, I could avoid doing a continuous orbit for god knows, how long.

 

[redtail]

well, now might be a good time to look at a hold procedure in an IFR manual [think AIM] and decide how you would best accomplish a 'hold' request from a controller VFR . . .

I'm being serious - it would be much easier on you and your passengers than flying 360's - want the shorthand version?

Fly a heading - note the heading. Do a 180 degree turn. Fly for a minute or so [you have a clock, right?] then turn back in a 180 degree turn and fly that same heading for a min or so - or - fly it for 2 minutes. No one is going to care VFR -

Stay out of airspace you have not been cleared into and burn some avgas . . .

Oh, and btw SLOW DOWN. This is much easier on you and your pax at 90kts / 100mph.

Oh you beat me to it

 

[redtail]

Stay out of airspace you have not been cleared into

Good point! The other day, I had to drop from 1500 to 1400 at the Deer Park VOR, because I couldn't raise NY approach to save my life, and I wasn't about to bust Charlie!

I heard another pilot trying to reach them also. Didn't hear a controller until I was clear of the area.

 

[LifeInverted]

I think he can be told to remain clear of the Bravo and hold south of CMK but he can't be told told to hold on the 165 radial standard turns or hold at a specific intersection.

The pilot can decide to climb over the bravo or go under it or around it.

I second that, but I've also never heard of, nor thought of this situation ever before.

 

[mtuomi]

Good point! The other day, I had to drop from 1500 to 1400 at the Deer Park VOR, because I couldn't raise NY approach to save my life, and I wasn't about to bust Charlie!

I heard another pilot trying to reach them also. Didn't hear a controller until I was clear of the area.

I had similar issue last Wednesday. Tried NY Approach 4-5 times, then gave up.

 

[redtail]

I had similar issue last Wednesday. Tried NY Approach 4-5 times, then gave up.

Maybe that was you I heard! It was Wednesday afternoon, I was looking to get FF up to Hartford. I gave up too

Sometimes I actually like when things don't go as planned. I get to practice Plan-B.

 

[mtuomi]

Maybe that was you I heard! It was Wednesday afternoon, I was looking to get FF up to Hartford. I gave up too

Yep, pretty sure that was me Small world!

I eventually got my clearance to class B from LGA tower, they were a bit surprised to "see" me as well.

 

[kkoran]

Assuming he was landing at KHPN--outside of the Class Bravo--I'm more concerned about...

The pilot repeated that he was VFR- to which he was told, well that puts you last in the arrivals.

 

[bobmrg]

I remember the one time that I flew down to Reno for the air races in a ratty old Apache. There were dozens of VFR flights holding in various locations because the airport was so busy. It was night, and we used a combination of air-to-air communications and eyeball separation.

Bob Gardner

 

[wabower]

St. Louis was famous in the day for VFR holds for eastbounds, even for Spirit and other relievers. If questioned they would say "just fly in a circle at your present altitude until further instructed."

 

[TommyG]

Assuming he was landing at KHPN--outside of the Class Bravo--I'm more concerned about...

Flying anywhere around the NY airspace, FRG,HPN, TEB you can always expect some crazy stuff like this.

Flying into KFRG VFR I have been told to hold over captree. On top of busy airspace there might have been some emergency that was taking priority.

 

[mtuomi]

I've been told to hold over Captree once and Jones Beach Monument once at FRG, and I've only flown here for a couple of weeks. No big deal, circle around for a while, that's what the ATC wants from you.

 

[jspilot]

I had similar issue last Wednesday. Tried NY Approach 4-5 times, then gave up.

Just of note- frequency 118.0 seems to be out of service.( no idea if it's perminant). I had to use 120.05 yesterday.

Thanks to everyone who has helped with this. It is true that given I am VFR and told to hold south of a VOR that could mean to just practice my rectangular pattern somewhere south of the VOR. It seems like flying the standard hold is not expected. Glad I asked this question! I definately learned something new.

 

[poadeleted20]

Controller: "VFR aircraft, enter holding pattern."
VFR Aircraft: "What's a holding pattern?"

This one's entirely on the controller, who has no reason to expect a VFR aircraft to know how to enter and fly a holding pattern at a fix.

 

[flyingron]

I've had controllers (ones with clues) fit me in to class B arrivals at IAD by telling me to hold off the runway (either midfield downwind or over a significant landmark roughly where you'd turn downwind to base) and "circle." As soon as there was a gap I was cleared to proceed direct to the numbers.

Far superior to the ones who try to fit 120 knot traffic into a sequence of jets at the gate.

 

[Velocity173]

Visual hold, not an instrument hold. They shouldn't be giving you a radial to hold on.

 

[roncachamp]

Visual hold, not an instrument hold. They shouldn't be giving you a radial to hold on.

Shouldn't mention a VOR, visual holding is done at prominent geographical fixes, such as Rush Lake southwest of KOSH.

 

[rottydaddy]

I used to get "hold at Paterson NDB" often when I was based at KTEB...first time they said that, my CFI just had me circle in the vicinity of the beacon.Usuly whatever altitude I happened to be at was fine by them, and there was no need to do anything other than circle.

 

[redtail]

I used to get "hold at Paterson NDB" often when I was based at KTEB...first time they said that, my CFI just had me circle in the vicinity of the beacon.Usuly whatever altitude I happened to be at was fine by them, and there was no need to do anything other than circle.

I remember the first time I was denied entry into the KTEB airspace to land. I was on a student solo, returning from the practice area and was totally NOT expecting to hear that.

I just did a couple of 360's over the Oradell Reservoir. Tower cleared me in after the second one. Good learning experience. I really miss Teterboro.

 

[rottydaddy]

I remember the first time I was denied entry into the KTEB airspace to land. I was on a student solo, returning from the practice area and was totally NOT expecting to hear that.

I just did a couple of 360's over the Oradell Reservoir. Tower cleared me in after the second one. Good learning experience. I really miss Teterboro.

Yes, the reservoir was the other one... also got my first (and only) 360 on final at KTEB. In the late 90s, it could get very busy... with mixed traffic.

 

[redtail]

Yes, the reservoir was the other one... also got my first (and only) 360 on final at KTEB. In the late 90s, it could get very busy... with mixed traffic.

Yep, very busy! Did most of my landing practice at KMMU and KCDW.

I was there (KTEB.) during '98/'99 and my friend was a controller. He saved me a few minutes of Hobbs time, whenever he was on duty.

KTEB was so busy back then, my CFI and I flew over to KMMU on the day he solo'd me. It was a heck of a lot less stressful doing my three takeoffs & landings there.