VFR flight following with Approach not handed off to Tower

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Narwhal

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Question:

If you're inside of class C airspace getting VFR flight following with approach (2 way radio comms established, w/ squawk but not on a vector) and they fail to hand you of to tower at a Class D satellite airport (class C abutts the class D laterally) prior to entering the D, would you be required to orbit prior to entering the Class D airspace until you are able to establish 2-way radio comms with the Class D tower? or is talking to the approach controller sufficient for entry until hand-off can be facilitated?

Scenario occurs due to to frequency congestion otherwise I would've just asked for the handoff. Thanks! (yeah, I should know, AIM is not clear on what defines the "controlling agency" for a class D satellite airport).

I orbit, but just curious.
 
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Narwhal said:
Question:

If you're inside of class C airspace getting VFR flight following with approach (2 way radio comms established, w/ squawk but not on a vector) and they fail to hand you of to tower at a Class D satellite airport (class C abutts the class D laterally) prior to entering the D, would you be required to orbit prior to entering the Class D airspace until you are able to establish 2-way radio comms with the Class D tower? or is talking to the approach controller sufficient for entry until hand-off can be facilitated?

Scenario occurs due to to frequency congestion otherwise I would've just asked for the handoff. Thanks! (yeah, I should know, AIM is not clear on what defines the "controlling agency" for a class D satellite airport).

I orbit, but just curious.
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Are you arriving or transitioning thru? If I were arriving I’d prompt approach for a switch because I need to be up the “ATC facility providing air traffic services” in order to get a clearance to land. If I’m transitioning thru, then I let approach do their job. Since 91.129 (C) (1) doesn’t specifically mention tower, I’d be up the facility (approach) providing air traffic services (FF), prior to entry.

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Velocity173 said:
Are you arriving or transitioning thru? If I were arriving I’d prompt approach for a switch because I need to be up the “ATC facility providing air traffic services” in order to get a clearance to land. If I’m transitioning thru, then I let approach do their job. Since 91.129 (C) (1) doesn’t specifically mention tower, I’d be up the facility (approach) providing air traffic services (FF), prior to entry.

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Landing at the Class D satellite. Normally I'd 100% just ask for the switch to the class D tower if the handoff didn't come, but the approach frequency was so congested for several miles with blocked transmissions, etc that I couldn't get a word in before I was going to enter the adjoining class D (less than 1/4 mile). Due to the congestion, I couldn't even find enough dead air to request the freq change from approach until I was about halfway through a 360, and I guess approach had higher priorities than giving me the handoff. Similarly, when I finally swapped to the class D tower, their frequency was so buy that I couldn't get a word in until I made a second 360. I'm wondering what might've happened if I just plowed ahead, switched to tower on my own, and flown into their airspace before establishing 2 way comms with the class D tower.

On departures, I know that the class D tower hands me off to approach all the time while I'm still in the Class D airspace, but perhaps it doesn't work the same for arrivals.
 
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You’d be required to establish two way radio comma before entering the class D airspace. Sometimes NY approach does this when heading into FRG. I just be proactive and ask for a frequency change and/or I’ll start slowing down to basically slow flight so I don’t bust the airspace. They’ve been known to do late handoffs right by the boundary of the class D airspace and guys have gotten yelled at by tower because they didn’t call tower
 
If you can't get a word in on approach, switch to the class D tower, tell them you are landing and ask them to call appcon and cancel for you.
 
As Velocity173 quoted, ATC is supposed to coordinate with the class D tower. I would not do 360's or any unusual maneuvers. Just switch to tower. They are probably expecting you anyway. I don't think it is necessary to explain to them how you got there. They are in touch with the radar controllers. They'll figure it out. It may make sense to circle if the class D tower is also saturated and you can't reach them either.
 
Narwhal said:
Landing at the Class D satellite. Normally I'd 100% just ask for the switch to the class D tower if the handoff didn't come, but the approach frequency was so congested for several miles with blocked transmissions, etc that I couldn't get a word in before I was going to enter the adjoining class D (less than 1/4 mile). Due to the congestion, I couldn't even find enough dead air to request the freq change from approach until I was about halfway through a 360, and I guess approach had higher priorities than giving me the handoff. Similarly, when I finally swapped to the class D tower, their frequency was so buy that I couldn't get a word in until I made a second 360. I'm wondering what might've happened if I just plowed ahead, switched to tower on my own, and flown into their airspace before establishing 2 way comms with the class D tower.

On departures, I know that the class D tower hands me off to approach all the time while I'm still in the Class D airspace, but perhaps it doesn't work the same for arrivals.
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Well you definitely can’t go wrong by circling. Personally, like I said I’d let approach do their job and get the coordination. If they’re too busy to pick up a landline and take 5 secs, then they should terminate you or tell you to remain clear.

For arguments sake, let’s say they forgot about you and forgot to coordinate. Technically it’s not a “handoff” to tower or even a “point out” to a tower (Class D). Unless the D has an LAO to use radar for those things (doubt it) it’s just a landline coordination or “ap-req.” Now if approach forgets to coordinate, do you really think they’re going to write you up for a PD for them not doing their job? It’s a bust on their end and would be handled internally as a “Operational Deviation.” That doesn’t get sent to the FSDO. The facility QA guy reviews it and drops the hammer on said approach controller that’s responsible. Even then it’s not much of a hammer because there are controls (ATSAP) that protect controllers from punishment. Considering there isn’t any sep in the Class D for you, the controller would get a slap on the wrist (retrain, give classes, etc.)

But, if you feel uncomfortable transitioning without approach specifically telling you that they got the coordination, by all means stay clear. I would say this though, I always bring up the GCA example. When doing a radar approach, you have no idea if the required coordination is done with RFC and tower. Do you break off the approach? Do you question RFC because you’re not on tower’s freq and don’t know if coordination has been done? I don’t. I accept the fact that they’re most likely doing their jobs. If not, it ain’t gonna be on me.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well you definitely can’t go wrong by circling. Personally, like I said I’d let approach do their job and get the coordination. If they’re too busy to pick up a landline and take 5 secs, then they should terminate you or tell you to remain clear.

For arguments sake, let’s say they forgot about you and forgot to coordinate. Technically it’s not a “handoff” to tower or even a “point out” to a tower (Class D). Unless the D has an LAO to use radar for those things (doubt it) it’s just a landline coordination or “ap-req.” Now if approach forgets to coordinate, do you really think they’re going to write you up for a PD for them not doing their job? It’s a bust on their end and would be handled internally as a “Operational Deviation.” That doesn’t get sent to the FSDO. The facility QA guy reviews it and drops the hammer on said approach controller that’s responsible. Even then it’s not much of a hammer because there are controls (ATSAP) that protect controllers from punishment. Considering there isn’t any sep in the Class D for you, the controller would get a slap on the wrist (retrain, give classes, etc.)

But, if you feel uncomfortable transitioning without approach specifically telling you that they got the coordination, by all means stay clear. I would say this though, I always bring up the GCA example. When doing a radar approach, you have no idea if the required coordination is done with RFC and tower. Do you break off the approach? Do you question RFC because you’re not on tower’s freq and don’t know if coordination has been done? I don’t. I accept the fact that they’re most likely doing their jobs. If not, it ain’t gonna be on me.
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Actually this used to happen a lot at FRG and supposedly tower got ****ed and wanted to violate some pilots. Read my other post in this thread. NY approach was giving late handoffs on the border of the class D and tower was getting upset at pilots.
 
It's not supposed to happen, but sometimes controllers screw up. I apologized for the late handoff from center. The tower guy says "That's why they're called en route controllers."
 
jordane93 said:
Actually this used to happen a lot at FRG and supposedly tower got ****ed and wanted to violate some pilots. Read my other post in this thread. NY approach was giving late handoffs on the border of the class D and tower was getting upset at pilots.
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Yeah I remember reading that thread. It’s one of those things that the two facilities really need to have a conference and figure out why NY approach can’t follow their order and either get a transition or switch aircraft to tower in a timely manner.

Sometimes that sort of thing is due to the fact that some facilities are just flat out busy and they’re pushing things right up to the limits. At Miramar, occasionally we would get hand offs from SOCAL on the PAR with aircraft descending down onto the glide path. Not suppose to intercept from above but because they were so busy and the fact the hills east of Miramar prevented a lower MVA, we’d get screwed with a bad handoff. No ones fault you just make the best of it.
 
Narwhal said:
Question:
or is talking to the approach controller sufficient for entry until hand-off can be facilitated?

Scenario occurs due to to frequency congestion otherwise I would've just asked for the handoff. Thanks! (yeah, I should know, AIM is not clear on what defines the "controlling agency" for a class D satellite airport)..
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That is kinda the rub, nowhere is it clear in writing to the pilot which controllers are actually providing air traffic services to which airspace in the real world.

In practice Approach provides air traffic services to B and C, but not D. That jurisdiction lies with Tower alone in D...while there may be an agreement between Approach and Tower, that is also unknown to the Pilots.

Yes, approach is SUPPOSED to coordinate transition THOUGH other airspace (nuance reading note is says "through" AKA for a transition and not "into" AKA inbound for landing), but according to the FAA the responsibility untimely lies with the pilot to ensure they are talking to the correct agency to meet the authorization requirements to enter the D airspace so you are correct to want to query ATC prior to entering if you have not received a handoff or confirmed they coordinated transition.

En Route on expected route I blow through, their problem if they failed to do their job...inbound I confirm, my problem if they failed to do their job.
 
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Somebody oughtta throw this question out to Opposing Bases...
 
"...field in sight, request cancel radar services..."
 
This exact same thing has happened to me twice both times talking to Cleveland approach going into KCGF. Both times I just switched freq and let the tower know. Both times they knew I was coming.
 
As posted above, the D tower already knows you're coming and who you are. If I'm inside C making my way to D, I'm not going to circle or do anything different than what approach has instructed. If you can't get a word in edgewise to the C approach, then just switch to D if you enter the D airspace.
 
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