Very bad news...

gismo said:
Have any of you had occasion to abort a landing under similar conditions? I don't think I ever have done a go-around from the runway at night. I have made several night takeoffs into IMC or even just under a mid level overcast sky and have been surprised at how quickly any useable horizon disappears when the nose comes up. Steve's plane had the Avidyne PFD which is normally pretty easy to interpret WRT the horizon but I suppose there's even a possibility that a hard touchdown disabled that (or worse yet caused erroneous indications).
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I've aborted near the ground in night ground-fog conditions, not rain. We were in the clear at 200'. Wet runway? Yes.

FWW, the one time I nearly ran off a runway was after flying about 6 hours after a long day of work. I came in too hot, landed long, and missed the fence at the far end of the runway by a matter of feet. I learned a real lesson from that..... and haven't done it again.
 
I'm sorry to hear of your loss Lance. :frown3:

I remember my first approach in actual with heavy rain; I was surprised when I got to the runway and it was moderately difficult to judge your height above the pavement since the landing light was reflecting off of the standing water. Perhaps he didn't judge his flare accurately and attempted a go-around just a bit too slow and too late. Hopefully the FAA/NTSB can piece together an answer so that we can all learn from it.
 
Something Ted said sparked my curiosity. In landing ( the mooney) he said he pretty much has the nose trimed way up requiring heavy elevator inputs on a go around.

In the Mooney or a Chrokee or the like if the nose flys up you can push the yoke forward with BOTH hands. in a plane such as a diamond you can push the stick forward with both hands. The Cirrus has a side stick and in the left seat its I would assume only really accessable by the LEFT hand not both hands. I wonder if this could be a factor especially for right hand dominant folks?
 
AdamZ said:
Something Ted said sparked my curiosity. In landing ( the mooney) he said he pretty much has the nose trimed way up requiring heavy elevator inputs on a go around.

In the Mooney or a Chrokee or the like if the nose flys up you can push the yoke forward with BOTH hands. in a plane such as a diamond you can push the stick forward with both hands. The Cirrus has a side stick and in the left seat its I would assume only really accessable by the LEFT hand not both hands. I wonder if this could be a factor especially for right hand dominant folks?
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Related to that - there's a good argument to be made for not trimming on final. John Deakin had a column about it - I'll see if I can find it. He also talks about not putting the prop full forward, etc.

I don't trim on final nor do I put the props full forward. To some extent, it's certainly personal preference. But setting yourself up for a condition in which heavy control forces and both hands are required in a go-around is not wise, especially if the weather is bad and there are distractions around.
 
Nose trim is one of the very few places I disagree with John. In the P-Baron, 9 degrees or more of nose up trim on short final will really help one make a smooth landing. Not doing that causes a lot of muscling the final round out which won't be real smooth unless you're much stronger than most pilots. That being said, one must be ready to override the up trim on take off or to reach down after adding power and reduce trim.

I never had a problem forcing up trim down on take off in my A-36. Can't imagine that isn't true on the Cirrus, but as with so many accidents, it sounds like he had several things working against him; the up trim just may have been one extra factor that added up against him.

Best,

Dave
 
sba55 said:
Related to that - there's a good argument to be made for not trimming on final. John Deakin had a column about it - I'll see if I can find it. He also talks about not putting the prop full forward, etc.
Click to expand...

Dave Siciliano said:
Nose trim is one of the very few places I disagree with John. In the P-Baron, 9 degrees or more of nose up trim on short final will really help one make a smooth landing. Not doing that causes a lot of muscling the final round out which won't be real smooth unless you're much stronger than most pilots.
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I'm with John on this one. A lot of pilots like to land the 182 with partial flaps and two swipes of nose-up trim in the flare. I land with full flaps and do not re-trim in the flare.

Yes, it's a lot harder to make a nice smooth landing that way. The pitch forces required are heavy but not excessive, but pulling that hard *and* having the fine muscle control to make the landing smooth at the same time is difficult. It took me 2 years of flying that plane before I could consistently get landings that I was happy with using full flaps and no trim.

However, even without using trim, the pitch-up when adding full power for a go-around is excessive. *With* the extra nose-up trim, I'm not sure I could overpower it enough, and I'm not a small guy! As it is, I already worry about those good ol' Cessna seat rails letting go because I'm pushing so hard.

So, I'll continue landing it the hard way, because IMHO it's the right (safe) way. I've also discovered that my passengers are a lot more forgiving of my landings than I am!
 
Lance: as with some of the other posters, we haven't met, but I too am sorry for your loss. I also want to thank you for posting. This thread was very timely for me as I departed on a long trip in an archer (MSN->HPN) the next day, with a variety of weather in the forecast.

The thoughtful posts about possible factors and things to consider was in my mind as I made my choices on the way to NY.

I'm 99% sure that without this thread I still would have chosen to stop and not push on to HPN on Thursday afternoon/evening (seriously low ceilings and rain), but this discussion was prominent in my mind.

--david
 
It's a trade-off and personal preference. If you don't trim up on the Mooney (or the Aztec) on final, you end up holding back a lot of force, which makes a smooth landing more difficult and is tiring on your arm for a longer period of time. When I do go-arounds, I'll do the standard mixture/prop/throttle/flaps/gear and if there's an electric trim I'll be running that with my thumb. If manual, I may attack it earlier to give my left arm a break.

It depends on the plane and personal preference, but in the planes I fly and based on my preferences, I'll stick to trimming on final. On the Aztec, definitely it makes smooth landings much easier. I've never had a problem forcing the elevator/stabilator on planes I fly, and I'm not exactly a paragon of strength.
 
Another thought I had there - if I'm flying in the Aztec and I have an engine failure (that's likely to last longer than a minute or so), I'll set the rudder trim for the duration of the flight. Sure, it means I'll have to apply rudder forces when I adjust power settings on the remaining good engine, but that also leaves my legs much less tired than they would be otherwise. I'd rather not kill one leg for however long it takes me to get to an airport and land.
 
I ended up with a bunch of things to do today and didn't get as much time to play as I had hoped. Did fly over Edwards AFB at 6000 and I think I got some good pictures for another thread.

We did try a couple of simulated go arounds at 8,500 (10,600 DA). We both tried slowing to 65 kts with full flaps and adding full power (smoothly). With lots but not full nose up trim, it took firm but not unreasonable pressure to keep the nose level as we accelerated. Full power and 80 kts we were climbing at 500 fpm. It took a lot of rudder pressure even at that altitude to stay coordinated.

Hopefully, I'll get more time to play in the pattern tomorrow.

Joe
 
Joe, It will be interesting to hear the results of your testing. You were at 6,000 MSL so it is safe to assume a different power curve at lower alts, and the subject plane was very slow, on the mains.

Keep us informed.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's a trade-off and personal preference. If you don't trim up on the Mooney (or the Aztec) on final, you end up holding back a lot of force, which makes a smooth landing more difficult and is tiring on your arm for a longer period of time. When I do go-arounds, I'll do the standard mixture/prop/throttle/flaps/gear and if there's an electric trim I'll be running that with my thumb. If manual, I may attack it earlier to give my left arm a break.

It depends on the plane and personal preference, but in the planes I fly and based on my preferences, I'll stick to trimming on final.
Click to expand...

I should clarify: I am trimmed to my final approach airspeed when I'm on final. I do not trim any extra for the flare. :no: Generally, in the 182 I fly downwind at 100mph, and I'm trimmed for that. When I begin descending, I pull power to 12"/2000RPM which is just out of the governing range so I can push the prop lever in, and I put in 10 degrees of flaps. That requires a brief push on the yoke, but the plane slows down a hair and settles into a nice descent. When I begin the turn to base, I select 20 degrees and use the pitch-up tendency to help bring me through the turn, and by the end of the turn the plane's settled in a bit slower. Same thing for the turn to final, and if I've done everything right, I don't need to re-trim for my 80mph final approach speed. At flare time, I pull power and pull back without re-trimming.
 
Geico266 said:
Joe, It will be interesting to hear the results of your testing. You were at 6,000 MSL so it is safe to assume a different power curve at lower alts, and the subject plane was very slow, on the mains.

Keep us informed.
Click to expand...
I will.

I think that all today's experiment showed was that there was plenty of power to climb with full flaps.

The more I think about it, I think the best experiment at altitude is recovery from a power off stall, which I've done many times from left and right seat without any strange behavior.

I have seen the left wing drop in a power-on stall if the pilot wasn't on the right rudder quick enough.

The speculation on the COPA site (gosh I hate speculation about a fellow pilot's mistakes, especially a friend of a friend) is that it was a loss of control on a very wet runway in limited visibility followed by a stall/spin on the attempted go-around. To be honest I'm not going to simulate that because it scares the beejeezus out of me.

Joe
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I should clarify: I am trimmed to my final approach airspeed when I'm on final. I do not trim any extra for the flare. :no: Generally, in the 182 I fly downwind at 100mph, and I'm trimmed for that. When I begin descending, I pull power to 12"/2000RPM which is just out of the governing range so I can push the prop lever in, and I put in 10 degrees of flaps. That requires a brief push on the yoke, but the plane slows down a hair and settles into a nice descent. When I begin the turn to base, I select 20 degrees and use the pitch-up tendency to help bring me through the turn, and by the end of the turn the plane's settled in a bit slower. Same thing for the turn to final, and if I've done everything right, I don't need to re-trim for my 80mph final approach speed. At flare time, I pull power and pull back without re-trimming.
Click to expand...

Ahh, ok. That makes a bit more sense and is more what I do in the Mooney. In the Aztec, though, I trim in the flare. It makes smooth landings much easier.
 
Kent: different planes handle very differently here. You'll find the Barons do much better landing with about 9 degrees of up trim. I put that in on short final as I do my last power reductions. Didn't need to do that in the A-36. I used 3 to 6 degrees there depending on load which gave me Vx on climb if I went around.

The Baron is the same in that 3 degrees up is the takeoff setting if the back seats are full and 6 degrees up if only front seats. So, I'm only adding another 3 to 6 degrees above normal take off setting which can quickly be reduced for a go around. Last I talked to Lance, he was going to 9 to 12 degrees up on short final. I might add, on normal take off I still reduce trim on climb. The POH suggests setting for Vx climb. I do a cruise climb and wind up holding the nose down against trim until I reduce it once I clear obstacles.

I don't really flare; I round out just above the runway and let the plane slowly settle on the mains with the nose slightly up. Very easy to land with the nose a bit low if one doesn't add a bit more trim on the P-Baron.

Of course, you're not a small person and 75 to 100 pounds of back pressure with very fine small adjustments to land smoothly may not be a big deal to you <g>.

John did mention in his article that some folks did land with more up trim; he didn't like it, but he also acknowledged that if one did it, to quickly take it out when adding power for the go-around which is what I do.

I might also mention that I seldom go into short fields with obstacles with the P-Baron. A go around is pretty routine if one does things gradually. I normally add partial power to stop the descent and let the plane accelerate and check everything, then add final climb power because of the turbos (don't want to over boost them), get a positive rate of climb and clean it up as I reduce trim. I find most problems seem to arise when one rapidly adds power and tries to get a climb going before the plane is ready. With a long runway and no obstacles, one can do things smoothly and still be effective. In other situations, one might certainly make adjustments.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave, I agree with you - it depends on the plane. The nose up tendency on go around is much worse in, for example, a 182 compared to a Bonanza. But I like John's other point about this, too. Go-around should happen quickly, but they shouldn't be rushed. There's time to put the mixture and prop forward and set up your trim either way....
 
We had a similar situation a few years ago at my airport... Relatively low time IR rated pilot... A Saratoga with his family on board - he had owned it about 3 months... Coming back in after dark after a long day of flying, snow on the ground and spitting snow falling... No real horizon to to see, white sky against white ground and the falling snow reflecting his landing light back into his eyes... He wheel barrowed it onto the runway bending the nose wheel and losing his steering... The Toga bounced once and then came down hard on the left main (bent sideways) and caroomed into a deep snowbank... The plane tipped up but did not go over... No inuries...
Many accidents/incidents I have seen over the decades have similarities:
Low time pilot (relatively)
Complex aircraft (bigger/faster than trainers)
Reduced visibility
Often at the end of a long day

denny-o
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I don't really flare; I round out just above the runway and let the plane slowly settle on the mains with the nose slightly up. Very easy to land with the nose a bit low if one doesn't add a bit more trim on the P-Baron.
Click to expand...

Another plane-specific thing here. On the Aztec, you need to flare because the nose wheel sticks out far and the flare keeps you from landing nosewheel first. I noticed on Lance's Baron this wasn't required. Same goes for the Navajo.
 
Dave, I am curious, did you add nose up trim on my landing? I probably flared more than you do. Was there electic trim on the right side? If so I probably added trim subconsiously.

Written from my iPhone while in pain in the dentists chair. Which makes flying seem cheap.
 
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jesse said:
Dave, I am curious, did you add nose up trim on my landing? I probably flared more than you do. Was there electic trim on the right side? If so I probably added trim subconsiously.

Written from my iPhone while in pain in the dentists chair. Which makes flying seem cheap.
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There's no electric trim on the right side if you're talking about Dave S's 58P. And if you weren't hauling back with 20-50 lbs of force all the way down final, "someone" dialed in 9-10 degrees of nose up trim. I always trim to hold my short final speed and the trim setting and airspeed varies with weight and CG. With all seats full it only takes 6-8 degrees but with just one or two up front I end up between 10 and 12 degrees nose up. I do not add more trim in the flare and the force there isn't very high, maybe topping out at 10-15 pounds to keep the nosewheel off the ground. I can land it in a full stall but rarely do and that takes a heftier pull but it's still doable.
 
gismo said:
There's no electric trim on the right side if you're talking about Dave S's 58P. And if you weren't hauling back with 20-50 lbs of force all the way down final, "someone" dialed in 9-10 degrees of nose up trim. I always trim to hold my short final speed and the trim setting and airspeed varies with weight and CG. With all seats full it only takes 6-8 degrees but with just one or two up front I end up between 10 and 12 degrees nose up. I do not add more trim in the flare and the force there isn't very high, maybe topping out at 10-15 pounds to keep the nosewheel off the ground. I can land it in a full stall but rarely do and that takes a heftier pull but it's still doable.
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Gotcha. I don't remember any heavy control forces which means that either he or I added it. Who knows. I never really think about trim and just make constant adjustments.

Sorry for the thread drift.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm with John on this one. A lot of pilots like to land the 182 with partial flaps and two swipes of nose-up trim in the flare. I land with full flaps and do not re-trim in the flare.

Yes, it's a lot harder to make a nice smooth landing that way. The pitch forces required are heavy but not excessive, but pulling that hard *and* having the fine muscle control to make the landing smooth at the same time is difficult. It took me 2 years of flying that plane before I could consistently get landings that I was happy with using full flaps and no trim.

However, even without using trim, the pitch-up when adding full power for a go-around is excessive. *With* the extra nose-up trim, I'm not sure I could overpower it enough, and I'm not a small guy! As it is, I already worry about those good ol' Cessna seat rails letting go because I'm pushing so hard.

So, I'll continue landing it the hard way, because IMHO it's the right (safe) way. I've also discovered that my passengers are a lot more forgiving of my landings than I am!
Click to expand...

I did it relatively recently in my C182H. 30 degrees of flaps, prop full forward, and did a pretty good slam on the ground. Immediately went to full throttle and PUSHED with all my might on the yoke. Got it in the air and started fixing the trim and then dumped 10 degrees of flaps to 20 degrees.

It was a eye-opening experience...but one I lived from and I can say I can do it, but do not like it.
 
jesse said:
Dave, I am curious, did you add nose up trim on my landing? I probably flared more than you do. Was there electic trim on the right side? If so I probably added trim subconsiously.

Written from my iPhone while in pain in the dentists chair. Which makes flying seem cheap.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I did Jesse and mentioned I would do it for you on short final. Don't recall if I got 9 degrees in, but I did add up trim a couple times.

Know what you mean about the dentist.

Dave
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I should clarify: I am trimmed to my final approach airspeed when I'm on final. I do not trim any extra for the flare. :no: Generally, in the 182 I fly downwind at 100mph, and I'm trimmed for that. When I begin descending, I pull power to 12"/2000RPM which is just out of the governing range so I can push the prop lever in, and I put in 10 degrees of flaps. That requires a brief push on the yoke, but the plane slows down a hair and settles into a nice descent. When I begin the turn to base, I select 20 degrees and use the pitch-up tendency to help bring me through the turn, and by the end of the turn the plane's settled in a bit slower. Same thing for the turn to final, and if I've done everything right, I don't need to re-trim for my 80mph final approach speed. At flare time, I pull power and pull back without re-trimming.
Click to expand...

Fairly close to the technique I use in the C205 (a fairly nose heavy plane when light). I use full flaps 90% of the time -- 30 degrees the remainder (usually because I will make the aim point on the runway with the headwind component).

Once trimmed for a/s on final, there's no more trimming. The airplane was designed so that with a light load (1 or 2 up front) you still need significant back pressure to achieve a nosegear up attitude on landing.

As you add pax & load aft, the pitch control becomes MUCH lighter. If you're near gross the pitch becomes almost twitchy.

I've yet to do a go-around at MGW, though have practiced with aft CG (simulating near gross conditions). It takes some strength to keep the nose down once the power is full.

In this airplane the go-around drill is full throttle, flaps immediately to 20, then relieve trim pressure. By the time trim is taken out, airplane is positive rate, so the rest of the flaps come out (the 205 is actually a 210-205, fixed gear 210 with an IO-470 rated at 265 HP).

The flaps have no detent and no stops, so familiarity is crucial.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kent: different planes handle very differently here.
Click to expand...

Of course. :yes:

You'll find the Barons do much better landing with about 9 degrees of up trim.
Click to expand...

How much of that do you already have in on final, though? This comment by Lance leads me to believe the answer to that is "most of it, if not all":

gismo said:
And if you weren't hauling back with 20-50 lbs of force all the way down final, "someone" dialed in 9-10 degrees of nose up trim.
Click to expand...

IMHO, in *any* plane, you should be trimmed to hands-off on final, and only start pulling to level off above the runway.

The Baron is the same in that 3 degrees up is the takeoff setting if the back seats are full and 6 degrees up if only front seats. So, I'm only adding another 3 to 6 degrees above normal take off setting which can quickly be reduced for a go around.
Click to expand...

Yup - If yours is anything like Lance's, the electric trim is quite fast. There is no electric trim in the 182, and on the various Pipers I fly it's VERY slow (For example, if there were a Piper-speed electric trim in the 182, I'd be holding the hat switch in the down position for ~20 seconds on a go-around). Having that fast e-trim means you don't have to use one of your five hands to change your trim on a go-around. ;)

I don't really flare; I round out just above the runway and let the plane slowly settle on the mains with the nose slightly up.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what a flare is? :dunno:

Very easy to land with the nose a bit low if one doesn't add a bit more trim on the P-Baron.
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You know... I just KNOW that after all this discussion, next time you let me fly the P-Baron I'm gonna have a crappy landing. :rofl: Of course, I don't think it could get much better than the first time I landed it! Beginner's luck.

Of course, you're not a small person and 75 to 100 pounds of back pressure with very fine small adjustments to land smoothly may not be a big deal to you <g>.
Click to expand...

:rofl:

I normally add partial power to stop the descent and let the plane accelerate and check everything, then add final climb power because of the turbos (don't want to over boost them)
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What type of wastegates do you have?

I find most problems seem to arise when one rapidly adds power and tries to get a climb going before the plane is ready. With a long runway and no obstacles, one can do things smoothly and still be effective. In other situations, one might certainly make adjustments.
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The other thing that changes is that the more time and experience we gain, the earlier we're likely to see the potential hazards and the more time we have to initiate a successful go-around. I know I had some "panic" go-arounds as a student that I wouldn't need today.
 
tdager said:
I did it relatively recently in my C182H. 30 degrees of flaps, prop full forward, and did a pretty good slam on the ground. Immediately went to full throttle and PUSHED with all my might on the yoke. Got it in the air and started fixing the trim and then dumped 10 degrees of flaps to 20 degrees.

It was a eye-opening experience...but one I lived from and I can say I can do it, but do not like it.
Click to expand...

The 182 has a marked difference in pitch with power changes. And the elevator is very heavy and sits in the full nose-down position on the ground until power is added for takeoff.

Exercise: Next time you're up practicing, see what the opposite of a go-around does - Start in a climb attitude and airspeed at full throttle and pull the power all the way to idle. That's an eye-opener too. :eek: But, with the (I think) unusual characteristic of the 182 that Vx = Vs1, and the fact that you'd need to get that nose over in a hurry if you lose the engine on a Vx climb, it's nice to know the plane will give you some help. Another nice thing about the 182 is that with no power you simply trim all the way until you hit the nose-up stop, and the plane will *nail* best glide and stay there, leaving you more attention available to attempt a restart (with sufficient altitude, of course.)
 
I'm learning a LOT from this discussion. Frankly, I've always classified go-arounds as non-events. I think that is because I've spent all of my time flying airplanes in which they are. Hearing the discussions of how they're handled in the different aircraft has been very enlightening. One of my biggest "take aways" from this discussion is that a go around is normally urgent, but not an emergency. Full throttle may or may not be the best option for every airplane. In some scenarios and aircraft it may make much more sense to arrest your descent with partial power to buy you a few seconds to prepare for the ascent.
 
gismo said:
There's no electric trim on the right side if you're talking about Dave S's 58P. And if you weren't hauling back with 20-50 lbs of force all the way down final, "someone" dialed in 9-10 degrees of nose up trim. I always trim to hold my short final speed and the trim setting and airspeed varies with weight and CG. With all seats full it only takes 6-8 degrees but with just one or two up front I end up between 10 and 12 degrees nose up. I do not add more trim in the flare and the force there isn't very high, maybe topping out at 10-15 pounds to keep the nosewheel off the ground. I can land it in a full stall but rarely do and that takes a heftier pull but it's still doable.
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I don't know if you saw or not, but I was doing that instinctively on your plane, partly since that's how I do it in the Aztec. However I held the nose up higher than needed (another carryover from the Aztec).
 
Once trimmed for landing the IAR will pitch up enough to activate the stall horn in a heartbeat if you go to full throttle and don't shove the stick forward immediately to correct. Happened to me once early on at 50' AGL. Do not want that to happen again. There are only 5 "bumps" on the electric trim between t/o position and landing position. I understand the Cirrus is similarly sensitive in trim with large power setting changes.

FlyNE said:
I'm learning a LOT from this discussion. Frankly, I've always classified go-arounds as non-events. I think that is because I've spent all of my time flying airplanes in which they are. Hearing the discussions of how they're handled in the different aircraft has been very enlightening. One of my biggest "take aways" from this discussion is that a go around is normally urgent, but not an emergency. Full throttle may or may not be the best option for every airplane. In some scenarios and aircraft it may make much more sense to arrest your descent with partial power to buy you a few seconds to prepare for the ascent.
Click to expand...
 
FlyNE said:
In some scenarios and aircraft it may make much more sense to arrest your descent with partial power to buy you a few seconds to prepare for the ascent.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.....

Not sure which scenarios those might be...?

Even an A36 with 300HP can be held in proper attitude once full throttle is applied.
 
We probably just need to chat Kent. The landing you did in my plane at MSN was with the up trim in on final.
The P is a bit different because I use approach flaps. They change pitch about 2 degrees when added; have to add down trim when they are added or the nose pitches up. So, when I go to full flaps when the runway is made, my trim is down a bit. As I removed power, I add up trim. If I do them together, passengers don't even notice.

The P-has a different take off power setting than the continuous climb setting. I take off with 39.5" of MP. I climb at 34 to 35". My approach power is 21". So, to go around, I increase power to 30"; check the descent, check instruments; then, go to 35" and props and mixture up if they aren't already. That gives me a positive rate of climb: flaps up, gear up, trim adjusted as the plane starts to climb.

We'll give it a go next time I see you and you can tell me what's different than what you are used to.

We had a very lengthy, detailed discussion on the Beech list about landing. Guys like John Deakin and many other highly experienced folks thought calling it a 'flare' before landing was bit misleading as a flare implies nose up, bleeding off airspeed and strikes one as a more pronounced maneuver. The group settled on calling it rounding out just above the runway which gives a little different connotation. One just pulls the nose up a bit higher than level and holds the plane slightly above the runway until it settles on the mains. Not trying to change anyone's understanding; I just like calling it that.
Same thing with rotating: a jet rotates--pitches up to a set angle of attack or up pitch on the AI and flies off the ground. In a recip, we fly off the runway by unloading the weight on the front strut and letting the plane take off. Small stuff <g>. One may pull it off at a set airspeed on a short field, but a normal takeoff should just let the plane depart the runway when it's ready to fly.

BTW, we are 200 hours over TBO on turboed engines. Not many folks can say that. It's a bit different than flying with 'full rental power' <g>

Best,

Dave
 
How are you guys dialing in specific degrees of trim? (9 degrees is pretty exact!) I don't recall the trim dial having a degrees indicator, at least in the planes I typically fly... it's more a "two turns up" is about right, then tweak as needed for the control forces to feel right while maintaining desired airspeed...
 
Troy: The 58P does have digits on the trim indicator: I believe, every three degrees.

Best,

Dave
 
sba55 said:
Every Bonanza I've flown does, as well.
Click to expand...

I've never actually measured the trim tab angle but it looks pretty close to the number on the trim indicator next to the trim wheel.
 
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