Verifying runway crossing clearance

Do you verify runway crossing clearance at towered airports?

  • Yes, better safe than sorry

    Votes: 26 40.6%

  • No, ground said I was clear once and that's enough

    Votes: 29 45.3%

  • Towered airports suck

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • Pie

    Votes: 8 12.5%
  • Total voters
    64
Morne

Morne

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Morne
Inspired by the thread about runway incursion due to "Roger"...

When at a towered airport I was taught that even if ground clears you to cross a runway as part of a lengthy taxi clearance you should still stop at the runway's hold short line and verify that you are cleared to cross that particular runway at that time.

What say ye?
 
If you've been cleared to cross, then cross. If you stop and ask again, you're holding up the show. You verified it when you read back the clearance.

Of course, if you're not sure - if you're having a memory lapse - then ask again.
 
Morne said:
What say ye?
Click to expand...

How many times do you need to hear "Cleared for take off runway xx"?

Why is this different?

If you are unsure, ask. If you are sure that you have been cleared to cross, pretend you are a six year old crossing the street. Look both directions, then cross without delay.

-Skip
 
You are a pilot, you should be able to remember your clearance, or have written it down if that is what it takes.
 
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I voted yes, but generally if ground isn't busy, I'll verify en route just before the bars (only on a lengthy taxi clearance). If they're busy and I know I heard it right or wrote it down, I'll just pass on through, keeping my head on a swivel.

If I'm not mistaken don't you have to hold short on the second runway and ask for clearance. (Only one runway crossing at a time)? I remember when I used to fly out of Chino I'd get "taxi, Kilo, alpha, cross runway two one, right on papa, cross runway two six right, hold short runway two six left". If I'm not mistaken, they changed all that a few years ago. Just never came across it since.
 
From what I remember, up until about 2 years ago, permission to cross a runway was "implied" as part of your clearance, unless told specifically to hold. They changed that after some serious issues with incursions, they reversed that...now if your taxi directions have you crossing a runway, you must have implicit clearance to cross. That being said...if you have received that clearance...no need to stop.
 
I will usually give a call to ground when I am approaching the runway that I intend to cross and say "ground confirm that N***AS is still clear to cross runway 35R at G". I have had it happen on many occasions where our taxi time took just long enough for the game to change and they end up having us hold short briefly before crossing the runway in question.
 
I always get a second clearance to cross as I reach the runway. When he reads back that I'm cleared across I then ask him to confirm he said, "cleared across". By now they usually sound a bit annoyed, but better safe than sorry, so I set the brake and switch to tower and see if he can confirm that ground indeed had authority to clear me across the runway and if that clearance to cross is valid. If tower confirms it is then I ask for a light gun signal to confirm he's actually in the tower I'm talking to on the radio. Only then do I attempt to cross any and all runways.

Hey, better safe than sorry...
 
Morne said:
Inspired by the thread about runway incursion due to "Roger"...

When at a towered airport I was taught that even if ground clears you to cross a runway as part of a lengthy taxi clearance you should still stop at the runway's hold short line and verify that you are cleared to cross that particular runway at that time.

What say ye?
Click to expand...

Time at the threshold might be better spent looking out the window.
 
Captain said:
I always get a second clearance to cross as I reach the runway. When he reads back that I'm cleared across I then ask him to confirm he said, "cleared across". By now they usually sound a bit annoyed, but better safe than sorry, so I set the brake and switch to tower and see if he can confirm that ground indeed had authority to clear me across the runway and if that clearance to cross is valid. If tower confirms it is then I ask for a light gun signal to confirm he's actually in the tower I'm talking to on the radio. Only then do I attempt to cross any and all runways.

Hey, better safe than sorry...
Click to expand...

LOL. You had me going there for a bit.
 
Captain said:
I always get a second clearance to cross as I reach the runway. When he reads back that I'm cleared across I then ask him to confirm he said, "cleared across". By now they usually sound a bit annoyed, but better safe than sorry, so I set the brake and switch to tower and see if he can confirm that ground indeed had authority to clear me across the runway and if that clearance to cross is valid. If tower confirms it is then I ask for a light gun signal to confirm he's actually in the tower I'm talking to on the radio. Only then do I attempt to cross any and all runways.

Hey, better safe than sorry...
Click to expand...

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you vociferously for contributing such a mature and reasonable point of view to the discussion.
 
Morne said:
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you vociferously for contributing such a mature and reasonable point of view to the discussion.
Click to expand...

Vociferously? Gonna have to ask Siri about that one...
 
(back from Siri...)

No there's a descriptive word!
 
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cleared4theoption said:
From what I remember, up until about 2 years ago, permission to cross a runway was "implied" as part of your clearance, unless told specifically to hold. They changed that after some serious issues with incursions, they reversed that...now if your taxi directions have you crossing a runway, you must have implicit clearance to cross. That being said...if you have received that clearance...no need to stop.
Click to expand...

Should be explicit.
 
Since I write it down when I get my taxi instructions, I just look to see if I wrote "X5" (cross runway 5) along with "R32 EBA" (runway 32 via Echo, Bravo, and Alpha). If I don't see that, then I'll stop and ask. If I do, I'll look both ways and if I don't see anyone coming, I'll then motor across.
 
jdhowe75 said:
If I'm not mistaken don't you have to hold short on the second runway and ask for clearance. (Only one runway crossing at a time)?
Click to expand...
That's correct, unless the two runways are less than 1000 feet apart, in which case Ground can clear you across both at the same time.

I remember when I used to fly out of Chino I'd get "taxi, Kilo, alpha, cross runway two one, right on papa, cross runway two six right, hold short runway two six left". If I'm not mistaken, they changed all that a few years ago. Just never came across it since.
Click to expand...
They did. Here's a briefing that covers the "new" rules which have been in place for two years now.
 

Attachments

cleared4theoption said:
From what I remember, up until about 2 years ago, permission to cross a runway was "implied" as part of your clearance, unless told specifically to hold. They changed that after some serious issues with incursions, they reversed that...now if your taxi directions have you crossing a runway, you must have [explicit] clearance to cross. That being said...if you have received that clearance...no need to stop.
Click to expand...
Your memory is fine -- correct on all points with your typo corrected.
 
Morne said:
Inspired by the thread about runway incursion due to "Roger"...

When at a towered airport I was taught that even if ground clears you to cross a runway as part of a lengthy taxi clearance you should still stop at the runway's hold short line and verify that you are cleared to cross that particular runway at that time.

What say ye?
Click to expand...

If I'm close when I get to the crossing point, I go.
If I had to taxi a distance to get there, I verify.
 
As long as I remember (or better yet, can read where I wrote it) any runway crossing clearances I "verify" said clearance by looking for conflicting traffic. If I'm unsure about the clearance I ask.
 
I always confirm crossing clearances when I reach the runway to be crossed.

Every firm for which I've worked has advocated and required the same practice, and it's what I teach.

You might have been cleared to cross, but the world has changed since you got that clearance. Perhaps you're unwittingly about to have an incursion, or cause one.

I've been cleared onto a runway while others are cleared to takeoff on the same runway, or cleared to land on the same runway. It happens. I've been cleared to taxi to the ramp while on the runway, after being queried about which ramp I'm using; when I was cleared to taxi to the ramp, the controller came unglued when I approached the parallel runway. The controller had it backward; she assumed I was making a right turn and entering the ramp, when I'd already advised her mine was on the left, meaning I had to cross. Her mistake, our catch. Good catch, too, because it prevented an incursion.

Even at busy airports such as KORD, KLAX, KJFK, VHHH, EHAM, and so on, I always confirm a crossing clearance. It's a good practice.
 
Captain said:
I always get a second clearance to cross as I reach the runway. When he reads back that I'm cleared across I then ask him to confirm he said, "cleared across". By now they usually sound a bit annoyed, but better safe than sorry, so I set the brake and switch to tower and see if he can confirm that ground indeed had authority to clear me across the runway and if that clearance to cross is valid. If tower confirms it is then I ask for a light gun signal to confirm he's actually in the tower I'm talking to on the radio. Only then do I attempt to cross any and all runways.

Hey, better safe than sorry...
Click to expand...

:rofl:

Like most out there, I never verify unless there is any doubt as to what my clearance was (this is where writing things down can be of great value)
 
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Ron Levy said:
They did. Here's a briefing that covers the "new" rules which have been in place for two years now.
Click to expand...

in case anyone is unaware ground incursion prevention is now part of the Private and Commercial PTS and required to be reviewed during BFRs.
 
Jaybird180 said:
in case anyone is unaware ground incursion prevention is now part of the Private and Commercial PTS
Click to expand...
Yes -- that's in the new PP and CP PTS's -- Area II, Task F, for PP.

and required to be reviewed during BFRs.
Click to expand...
Not to my knowledge. While that is highly recommended in all FAA guidance on flight reviews and runway incursion training, it is not part of 61.56 -- yet.
 
One reason you should get a crusty old CFI to give you some cross country once in a while is that about the time you copy, write down and read back your ground clearance at Des Moines and then query for permission to cross the runway enroute, he will look at you and ask if you've ever been to O'Hare, Dulles, Atlanta or even something like Midway or Minneapolis.
Listen to ground control and movement control at O'Hare sometime. They are interested in safety. They also assume that you are competent, alert, on-task and professional. They don't get every AA or UAL flight asking for every permission when everyone has the info. They're so busy and have such a rhythm of radio traffic that such would be disruptive as well as unnecessary. Of course, if you are in doubt, ask. But don't get in the habit of cluttering up the airways unnecessarily just to feel good.
 
Captain said:
I always get a second clearance to cross as I reach the runway. When he reads back that I'm cleared across I then ask him to confirm he said, "cleared across". By now they usually sound a bit annoyed, but better safe than sorry, so I set the brake and switch to tower and see if he can confirm that ground indeed had authority to clear me across the runway and if that clearance to cross is valid. If tower confirms it is then I ask for a light gun signal to confirm he's actually in the tower I'm talking to on the radio. Only then do I attempt to cross any and all runways.

Hey, better safe than sorry...
Click to expand...

On dark, moonless nights I ask for a light gun signal too. This, just to be sure there is a tower and I'm not getting clearance from some 16 year old yuppie brat with his toy radio. :D
 
As made clear in the announcement posted by Cap'n Ron, the onus is on the controller to make sure that a pilot receive a specific clearance to cross each runway enroute to the departure runway....be wary of "old school" instructors who know only what they were taught way back when. It should not be necessary for anyone to stop and call for clearance if the controllers are on the ball.

Bob Gardner
 
FlySince9 said:
On dark, moonless nights I ask for a light gun signal too. This, just to be sure there is a tower and I'm not getting clearance from some 16 year old yuppie brat with his toy radio. :D
Click to expand...

I hope you're joking. I am aware if there is a tower or not at any airport I'm operating on. Kinda goes with the whole flying thing, being aware of where you are. As for runway crossing clearances, I keep eyes open, follow my clearance and keep traffic moving, with a quick, "N1234 crossing runway X" as I approach the hold line.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I hope you're joking. I am aware if there is a tower or not at any airport I'm operating on. Kinda goes with the whole flying thing, being aware of where you are. As for runway crossing clearances, I keep eyes open, follow my clearance and keep traffic moving, with a quick, "N1234 crossing runway X" as I approach the hold line.
Click to expand...

To which the tower responds "Roger". :D
 
bobmrg said:
As made clear in the announcement posted by Cap'n Ron, the onus is on the controller to make sure that a pilot receive a specific clearance to cross each runway enroute to the departure runway....be wary of "old school" instructors who know only what they were taught way back when. It should not be necessary for anyone to stop and call for clearance if the controllers are on the ball.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

And Training Towers...
 
FlySince9 said:
On dark, moonless nights I ask for a light gun signal too. This, just to be sure there is a tower and I'm not getting clearance from some 16 year old yuppie brat with his toy radio. :D
Click to expand...

Aww I can flog my dead horse now...

This is why I want encryption and authentication on the ADS-B data stream.

Not gonna happen, because the FAA is too short-sighted, but it's coming...
 
If I get cleared to cross runway X I take that to mean I can cross the runway without further clearance. As good practice I'll always clear left and clear right before crossing and make sure I'm keeping my speed up as I cross the runway. I think asking the tower to re-confirm a clearance is unnescasry and just clogs up the frequency. I've never heard anyone do this at my airport which is busy and has many crossing runways. Plus if two different controllers are working the two different frequencies then I'd imagine they have a system where the ground controller knows what the tower is doing and vice versa.

With all this said, I do like when ground will give me my taxi clearance and then say switch to tower frequency. That way I can keep track of where airplanes are that may be taking off or landing. My instructors always taught me situational awareness was important to avoid runway incursions.
 
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denverpilot said:
Aww I can flog my dead horse now...

This is why I want encryption and authentication on the ADS-B data stream.

Not gonna happen, because the FAA is too short-sighted, but it's coming...
Click to expand...

You can have authentication sans encryption. Encrypting ABS-B would serve little value, but I get your drift.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
I hope you're joking. I am aware if there is a tower or not at any airport I'm operating on. Kinda goes with the whole flying thing, being aware of where you are. As for runway crossing clearances, I keep eyes open, follow my clearance and keep traffic moving, with a quick, "N1234 crossing runway X" as I approach the hold line.
Click to expand...

For future reference, when I put a :D , I'm joking...YUK, YUK!
 
FlySince9 said:
On dark, moonless nights I ask for a light gun signal too. This, just to be sure there is a tower and I'm not getting clearance from some 16 year old yuppie brat with his toy radio. :D
Click to expand...
Kind of like "Die Hard 2: Die Harder". Anyone can comp the radio frequency.
I've been training at a Class D. There is one controller there who will ALWAYS tell you to hold short at the runway crossing. And it seems the other guy ALWAYS clears you to cross. Since the route is usually "Taxi to runway 28 via bravo and charlie, cross/hold short runway 35", with readback, I don't usually forget the clearance/hold.
 
FlySince9 said:
For future reference, when I put a :D , I'm joking...YUK, YUK!
Click to expand...

Sigh. I don't do smilies (I'm a modemer from the old skool). You have to understand when I'm joking out of context.
 
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