Vans Aircraft sued for $35M

Kristin said:
The attorney that signed the complaint may be young, but a decision to take a case on contingency, which this surely is, gets made at the top levels of the firm.
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Do we know that this case was taken on contingency ? It sounds like such an angry rant that it may just be that a distraught family was willing to pay for the 50hrs it took to put their gripe with Vans in the shape of a lawsuit.
 
tsts4 said:
The manual has a section on pipe threaded fittings which are used in the fuel, brake, and oil systems as they are on most, if not all, GA aircraft. The important highlights from the section germaine to this discussion, are a sealant is mandatory, a couple of examples of what to use are provided, the use of Fuel Lube is "prohibited", and use of teflon tape is "not recommended" due to the potential for a piece to cause a blockage.
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Does it make any mention of the use of RTV? Is it also prohibited? Is it mentioned at all? Just for my own information, what the hell is "fuel lube"??
 
Dav8or said:
Does it make any mention of the use of RTV? Is it also prohibited? Is it mentioned at all? Just for my own information, what the hell is "fuel lube"??
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It's sort of a grease that is safe for use in sealing the fuel system.
 
Dav8or said:
Just for my own information, what the hell is "fuel lube"??
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Its a thick greasy goop whose main property is that it doesn't dissolve in gasoline. Can be used to assemble some parts in the fuel system.
 
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weilke said:
Its a thick greasy goop whose main property is that it doesn't dissolve in gasoline
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Actually it will in automotive gas, that has alcohol, toluene, and benzene as additives.
 
Tom-D said:
Actually it will in automotive gas, that has alcohol, toluene, and benzene as additives.
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Benzene (up to 0.5%) and toluene (up to 25%) are additives in av gas as well.
 
weilke said:
The builder has many choices when building his plane. Many of the parts will be sourced from a kit, others will be sourced from other places like Spruce. Any assembly manual is a suggestion and it is the very nature of experimental that you could bolt the wings on upside down and it would still be legal. There are ACs and other knowledge sources available to mechanics on how to assemble AN fittings. EAB aircraft are built by amateurs and history shows that they are more likely to crash due to mechanical issues. The fact that many builders do a particular task for the first time is probably part of that record.
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I think the argument that could be made is in how kits are marketed and the expectations that consumers have. My experience in talking to kit plane sales people at shows who would sell you a kit is, not "I'm selling you an experiment to figure out however you like.", but rather, "I'm selling you a very safe, tested and proven new airplane when built according to our plans." So follow the plans and get a very safe airplane is the expectation.

That's why I wonder how good those plans are in detail. This accident illustrates that little details can be fatal. I really don't know as I have never seen them and I have always heard they are very good in the case of Vans, but this kind of ongoing litigation I believe will put the plans to the test.

A 'loophole' suggests that you can do something illegal just because the letter of the law doesn't allow prosecution due to a narrow legal issue that makes it not apply to a particular case. The FAA recognizes kit manufacturers as integral part of the EAB world and works with them on safety issues if they arise. If the agency that regulates aviation considered the entire kit market a 'loophole', they would have closed it a long time ago. If the IRS finds a tax shelter that they consider a loophole, they fix the regs in the next rulemaking process.

The only 'loophole' is where manufacturers build you the entire plane with their staff and just have the 'builder' come by to sign work log entries. In a couple of weeks with a few hours of his own work, a single 'builder' has now 'built' a turboprop comparable in complexity to a Socata TBM. I am not sure that that is what was intended with the EAB regs.
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Well, that's why I put "loophole" in quotes, it's not really so much a true loophole as it is just exploitation. Professional builder assist, "two weeks to taxi" programs, professional builders, all this is not quite what I think the FAA had in mind decades ago when they and the EAA came up the 51% rules. I don't think they envisioned such a large number of serial production, nor did they see planes like the Lancair Evolution as becoming a reality. It was supposed to be about hobbyists learning skills and educating themselves about how airplanes are built, not people acquiring brand new high performance airplanes at a huge discount.

Like you said, if they really didn't like what was going on, they could put the brakes on it. From what I have heard, with accident rates for E/AB being so high, there are those in the FAA that are considering just this. Changing the regs for the 51% rules. However, with GA in this country in decline, I think at this point the FAA is a little bit loath to writing new regs and are more willing to work with the GA community to improve safety without new regs first.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's sort of a grease that is safe for use in sealing the fuel system.
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weilke said:
Its a thick greasy goop whose main property is that it doesn't dissolve in gasoline. Can be used to assemble some parts in the fuel system.
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Tom-D said:
Fuel Lube is an old term, that we older guys use, they no longer make real fuel lube, it is now called "EZ turn" get it at Aircraft Spruce & Specialties.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php?clickkey=5414
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Got it. Thanks for the info! Sounds like it is to be used for moving parts within the fuel delivery system to provide lubrication that won't dissolve away in the gas, but not to be used for making pipe fitting connections.
 
weilke said:
Do we know that this case was taken on contingency ? It sounds like such an angry rant that it may just be that a distraught family was willing to pay for the 50hrs it took to put their gripe with Vans in the shape of a lawsuit.
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I am 99% certain. IMX, when rich people engage in "sport litigation", a term coined by the former general counsel of Learjet, it is to vindicate their own ego. When it involves someone in the family doing something dumb, even if you are suing someone else, they tend to avoid the publicity. I very much doubt this firm wouldn't take a case just to file a complaint and then disappear, even for the $30K it would probably take. These suits are about the money. The plaintiff likely needs the money and the law firm is willing to do whatever to see if they can get her some, and make a bunch themselves on the side. They may, or may not, believe what they put in the complaint.
 
Dav8or said:
Got it. Thanks for the info! Sounds like it is to be used for moving parts within the fuel delivery system to provide lubrication that won't dissolve away in the gas, but not to be used for making pipe fitting connections.
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Fuel selector capstans etc.
 
Dav8or said:
Got it. Thanks for the info! Sounds like it is to be used for moving parts within the fuel delivery system to provide lubrication that won't dissolve away in the gas, but not to be used for making pipe fitting connections.
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Exactly. That's why Van's says not to use as a sealant for tapered pipe thread fittings

As for RTV,, it is not referenceed in the pipe thread paragraph in the Van's buiilder's manual one way or the other.
 
Fuel lube is the bomb....I use it for sealing threads on NPT fittings. Either on fuel or vacuum lines. I've used it on o-rings in fuel selectors....for both sealing and lubing. One of my favs....:yes:
Dav8or said:
Does it make any mention of the use of RTV? Is it also prohibited? Is it mentioned at all? Just for my own information, what the hell is "fuel lube"??
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Ted DuPuis said:
It's sort of a grease that is safe for use in sealing the fuel system.
Click to expand...

weilke said:
Its a thick greasy goop whose main property is that it doesn't dissolve in gasoline. Can be used to assemble some parts in the fuel system.
Click to expand...

Tom-D said:
Fuel Lube is an old term, that we older guys use, they no longer make real fuel lube, it is now called "EZ turn" get it at Aircraft Spruce & Specialties.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/ezturnlube.php?clickkey=5414
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Checkout_my_Six said:
Fuel lube is the bomb....I use it for sealing threads on NPT fittings. Either on fuel or vacuum lines. I've used it on o-rings in fuel selectors....for both sealing and lubing. One of my favs....:yes:
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I prefer Loctite 567 on NPTs. YMMV.....
 
TangoWhiskey said:
My "point"? If you think I have an agenda, I don't. What's your point?

It simply humanizes the tragedy. Sorry for your loss.
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Thanks and fair enough. I jumped to a conclusion concerning your post, which based on your response to my query, was not valid.
 
tsts4 said:
Exactly. That's why Van's says not to use as a sealant for tapered pipe thread fittings

As for RTV,, it is not referenceed in the pipe thread paragraph in the Van's buiilder's manual one way or the other.
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Hmmm... Does the manual specifically direct what should be used?
 
Dav8or said:
Hmmm... Does the manual specifically direct what should be used?
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No. Here's the relevant sub-paragraph:

"Because we cannot always fully tighten tapered thread fittings, and because even after fully tightening the fitting a small spiral leak path remains along the full length of threads, a thread sealant must be used during assembly. Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2. Teflon based pipe dopes and sealants, and some of the anaerobic thread sealants are also used by some builders with success. Do not use Fuel Lube. It is not a sealant. It is meant for lubricating moving parts in fuel valves, etc. Teflon tape is also not recommended. Small pieces of this tape may be cut by the threads, become loose, and cause all kinds of problems in aircraft systems. Teflon tape has even been the cause of engine stoppages."
 
tsts4 said:
No. Here's the relevant sub-paragraph:

"Because we cannot always fully tighten tapered thread fittings, and because even after fully tightening the fitting a small spiral leak path remains along the full length of threads, a thread sealant must be used during assembly. Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2. Teflon based pipe dopes and sealants, and some of the anaerobic thread sealants are also used by some builders with success. Do not use Fuel Lube. It is not a sealant. It is meant for lubricating moving parts in fuel valves, etc. Teflon tape is also not recommended. Small pieces of this tape may be cut by the threads, become loose, and cause all kinds of problems in aircraft systems. Teflon tape has even been the cause of engine stoppages."
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Really?? That's it? I guess it must be part of Vans "CYA" strategy to not just tell you what to use. Hmmm... We'll see how this goes now... I can see how the plaintiffs might have a case. They make no actual recommendations. They leave it up to the "builder" who is actually just an assembler of their design.

This guy chose wrong and now here we are...
 
I'd still like to know how the RTV and Vans made the plane fall out of the sky after the engine quit. Is there something about the RV-10 that makes it prone to loss of control when you dead-stick it?
 
Loss of power should not induce loss of control. We train for this.

Why are pilots losing it when the S hits the fan?

Fly it all the way into the crash. Don't stall dog gone it!
 
txflyer said:
Loss of power should not induce loss of control. We train for this.

Why are pilots losing it when the S hits the fan?

Fly it all the way into the crash. Don't stall dog gone it!
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:yeahthat:
 
Dav8or said:
Really?? That's it? I guess it must be part of Vans "CYA" strategy to not just tell you what to use....

This guy chose wrong and now here we are...
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??? They said Tite-seal and Permatex #2 and then named some alternatives. Now if it's me building and I see that, I get on Aircraft Spruce and look at the prices of Tite-seal and Permatex #2 and then order one of them. I don't play around with guessing whether or not RTV is good enough.

Whatever I use, it will say "thread sealant", not just a generic sealant. And there won't be enough on there to goop up and form a plug on the inside of the fuel line.
 
weilke said:
Fuel selector capstans etc.
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And then only ones designed for it. We've been all over this with Navion fuel valves that were designed to be used dry and people slathering fuel lube in them.
 
ollopa said:
I'd still like to know how the RTV and Vans made the plane fall out of the sky after the engine quit. Is there something about the RV-10 that makes it prone to loss of control when you dead-stick it?
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Seriously, the defense does not want to go there. That just opens up another door of "Why does this plane stall so easily?" "Why weren't safety devices designed to prevent a stall?" and of course the obvious- "If the motor hadn't stopped, this never would have happened." The stall is kind of irrelevant to this case.
 
txflyer said:
Fly it all the way into the crash. Don't stall dog gone it!
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When you must actually must do this, the urge is strong to pull..

You won't know how strong until you've BTDT.
 
OkieAviator said:
Seems pretty straight forward right there...
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Really?? What the hell is this crap??!!--

Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2.
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As a builder, I wouldn't want to know which products are "popular" amongst mechanics, I would want to know what product Vans aircraft recommends and uses on their airplanes. It is far too vague and obviously written by the legal department. We'll see if they were right or wrong in this strategy.

It reminds me of the "tech support" you get from just about any internet, software, or computer company these days. When you have a problem with their products they direct you to web forum and tell you to find a new friend and ask them.
 
Dav8or said:
Really?? What the hell is this crap??!!--

As a builder, I wouldn't want to know which products are "popular" amongst mechanics, I would want to know what product Vans aircraft recommends and uses on their airplanes. It is far too vague and obviously written by the legal department. We'll see if they were right or wrong in this strategy.
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I'm sure their lawyers wisely counseled them to NOT tell the builder what to use. That opens a much bigger can of worms.
 
LDJones said:
I'm sure their lawyers wisely counseled them to NOT tell the builder what to use. That opens a much bigger can of worms.
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That is silly, and simply untrue. Van's specifies specific products to use all the time. They also refer to the aircraft spandards book for products, techniques and other specs. RTV is not listed for thread sealant. This is a simple case of the builder using the wrong product in the wrong application.
 
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Dav8or said:
Really?? What the hell is this crap??!!--
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Means that I would do what Brian mentioned and look online at where to buy one of those two products. If after that I'm still confused about what to use I would call Vans builder support and ask them.
 
OkieAviator said:
Means that I would do what Brian mentioned and look online at where to buy one of those two products. If after that I'm still confused about what to use I would call Vans builder support and ask them.
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What amazes me is grown up people who decide to build a plane and have NEVER mated NPT fittings in their life....:confused::confused:......:redface:
 
N801BH said:
What amazes me is grown up people who decide to build a plane and have NEVER mated NPT fittings in their life....:confused::confused:......:redface:
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So what makes you think they are grown up people?
 
N801BH said:
What amazes me is grown up people who decide to build a plane and have NEVER mated NPT fittings in their life....:confused::confused:......:redface:
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:yeah that:

I wonder if the guy had trouble placing a new key on his ring. ?
 
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