V-Tail gear-up at DVT

Just another view point.... when I was flying in Alaska and landing on other than paved runways, we put up the flaps as soon as the mains touched down to help reduce damage to the flaps from flying gravel.

2 habits I picked up in Alaska that I will probably never stop doing.....

1. For landing mains touch down on the threshold.
2. Flaps come up when the mains touch down.

And I use my pinkie finger to move the flap handle.
 
Zeldman said:
Just another view point.... when I was flying in Alaska and landing on other than paved runways, we put up the flaps as soon as the mains touched down to help reduce damage to the flaps from flying gravel.

2 habits I picked up in Alaska that I will probably never stop doing.....

1. For landing mains touch down on the threshold.
2. Flaps come up when the mains touch down.

And I use my pinkie finger to move the flap handle.
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While I’ve never landed a retract on a runway so short that getting the flaps up for max brake effectiveness was an issue, I’ve done lotsa T&G’s in retracts. I don’t remember CFI’s making a big deal about it. They probably should have. Anyway, from reading about the issue here on POA I adopted a new SOP for myself. I point at the gear lever and say “that’s the gear” then I point to the flaps and say “this is the flaps” and retract them.
 
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The drunk monkey football bat panels of bOnAnZaS? Sure.
All retractable aircraft operations? Hell no. That'd be reductionist and uninformed.
 
"Placard says flaps, shaped like a flap, I see the gear switch over there (pause for dissenting opinions in the cockpit).....Flaps Up."
 
I do touch and goes in my bonanza V35. The flap lever is shaped completely different than the round gear handle AND I have to reach for the gear handle. The flap lever is super close. Would be hard to miss that in a later model bonanza. Earlier ones with the piano keys can be a huge problem as they look and feel the same.
 
simtech said:
I do touch and goes in my bonanza V35. The flap lever is shaped completely different than the round gear handle AND I have to reach for the gear handle. The flap lever is super close. Would be hard to miss that in a later model bonanza. Earlier ones with the piano keys can be a huge problem as they look and feel the same.
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If you are an ABS member, I suggest you do the BPPP new on line "BEST" course. It is excellent and free to members. I have owned my V35A for over 42 years and am a BPPP instructor and never do touch and goes in my Bonanza or in anyone else's for that matter.
 
simtech said:
I do touch and goes in my bonanza V35. The flap lever is shaped completely different than the round gear handle AND I have to reach for the gear handle. The flap lever is super close. Would be hard to miss that in a later model bonanza. Earlier ones with the piano keys can be a huge problem as they look and feel the same.
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And yet people with all years of -35s still manage to yank the gear up on the pavement, hence the BPPP recommendation to avoid altogether.

It’s your airplane, you are free to do what you want, but John’ Collins’ advice is sound.
 
Fearless Tower said:
And yet people with all years of -35s still manage to yank the gear up on the pavement, hence the BPPP recommendation to avoid altogether.

It’s your airplane, you are free to do what you want, but John’ Collins’ advice is sound.
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Why on earth does anyone design a retractable gear aircraft without a weight-on-wheels lockout on the gear?
 
Half Fast said:
Why on earth does anyone design a retractable gear aircraft without a weight-on-wheels lockout on the gear?
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The Mooney with the Johnson bar doesn't have a weight on wheels protection. All the Bonanzas and those that have electrically activated extension systems do have a weight on wheels. In most cases the weight on wheels will work if you have come to a full stop, but if you rely on it to keep the wheels down, we have a phrase for that, one of those who did have a gear up or one who will. The weight on wheels is based on a switch interrupting power when the struts are extended. Struts are often extended well into the landing roll and can be extended enough on the takeoff roll to make contact and power the gear motor. Have you ever landed and had one or more strut still extended and hung up when you taxi off the runway? They do occasionally hang up extended, sometimes with the lightest and sweetest touchdown.
 
Doug Reid said:
Squat switches are installed, but are not a guarantee ..see post #15.

It is hard to make anything idiot proof because idiots are very ingenious.
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Exactly.

Several years ago a CFI at the flying club I was with raised the gear while the Duchess was still in the tiedowns…..and then the idiot tried to say it wasn’t her fault.
 
When I went to flying complex aircraft, I was always taught not to do touch-and-gos and have stuck with that. We always did full stops, taxi back, and then a full takeoff. Given the number of gear ups that happen every year on otherwise perfectly good airplanes, I think the statistics for GA pilots show that it's not a great idea.

Maybe I'm just speaking as someone who's forgotten what it's like to have 100 hours, but it seems like much past private the benefits of touch-and-gos are fewer anyway. When you're working on the basics of trying to land and re-takeoff in a 172 it's one thing, but as you get into faster, more complicated aircraft, I tend to think that more of the general flow/checklist/briefings associated with landing and full stops are more logical.

Then again, the military does expensive touch-and-gos in quad engine jets, so maybe I'm not thinking right, but I don't think comparing a Bonanza to a KC-135 is fair. Maybe if it's an A36.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly.

Several years ago a CFI at the flying club I was with raised the gear while the Duchess was still in the tiedowns…..and then the idiot tried to say it wasn’t her fault.
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And there was the pilot that claimed he could not hear the tower calling him about his gear issue because there was some sort of loud horn blowng.
 
Rgbeard said:
doing touch and goes in a retractable is a risky endeavor and requires lots of attention.
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Ah, that is a good point. I've never flown complex, so that is something I haven't had to think about before.
 
Doug Reid said:
I fly an old 1955 F35. I was taught not to flip any switches on the airplane till off the runway and stopped. I hate it when this happens.
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For what it's worth, I learned to fly in a 172N. The POH has "retract flaps" as part of the procedure for short field landing. But you're not going to accidentally retract the gear in a 172N. Between that, and doing so many T&G's I've gotten in the habit of retracting the flaps once I'm on the runway and everything is slowed and stabilized.

But this entire thread is causing me to re-think that. I'd like to learn to fly complex someday, and it certainly appears this is a habit I need to change.
 
It ain't all that hard....heck even I can do it. You just need to implement a few safety prevention measures and habits. Don't be scared out of the thought. There are a few other things you'll need to add to your "routine"....but you'll learn those. the simpler you make it....the safer it will be. Touch and goes gets complicated and lots of arms moving and hand grabbing....while you're looking out the window. I train a "go-round"....but with the plane in the air....not on the roll.
azpilot said:
For what it's worth, I learned to fly in a 172N. The POH has "retract flaps" as part of the procedure for short field landing. But you're not going to accidentally retract the gear in a 172N. Between that, and doing so many T&G's I've gotten in the habit of retracting the flaps once I'm on the runway and everything is slowed and stabilized.

But this entire thread is causing me to re-think that. I'd like to learn to fly complex someday, and it certainly appears this is a habit I need to change.
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Checkout_my_Six said:
It ain't all that hard....heck even I can do it. You just need to implement a few safety prevention measures and habits. Don't be scared out of the thought. There are a few other things you'll need to add to your "routine"....but you'll learn those.
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Right now the only think stopping me is money - lol. I had to take a couple of years off as kids were getting older and more expensive. But I've trimmed expenses in another area and I'm back to renting a 172. I need to get my legs back under me, and then I'll keep working on progressing from there.
 
How to avoid a gear up while doing touch and go? Don't do touch and go in a plane with retracts. Seriously. You're not saving all that much time or gas.

Complex is a fun and pretty simple endorsement.
 
Who gets paid to do touch and go's, except flight instructors and the military?
 
Most gear up landings are unlikely If the mfgr provides enough warning devices to make it dummy proof. One that I'm familiar with has the gear up horn and light wired into: The RADALT. Engine power. A transducer in the pitot line that blows the horn below a set speed. Also a pilot who has a check list and a sterile cockpit.
 
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Maxnr said:
Most gear up landings are unlikely If the mfgr provides enough warning devices to make it dummy proof. One that I'm familiar with has the gear up horn and light wired into: The RADALT. Engine power. A transducer in the pitot line the blows the horn below a set speed. Also a pilot who has a check list and a sterile cockpit.
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Nothing can be guaranteed. Sometimes a pilot can go all the way to the slide with the horn blowing ...

 
Zeldman said:
Just another view point.... when I was flying in Alaska and landing on other than paved runways, we put up the flaps as soon as the mains touched down to help reduce damage to the flaps from flying gravel.

2 habits I picked up in Alaska that I will probably never stop doing.....

1. For landing mains touch down on the threshold.
2. Flaps come up when the mains touch down.

And I use my pinkie finger to move the flap handle.
Click to expand...

And don't forget to land with the water rudders up.
 
IK04 said:
And don't forget to land with the water rudders up.
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Not a problem with forgetting the water rudders either up or down...... I don't swim well so I stay far away from water, unless it is frozen water...:lol::lol:
 
Daleandee said:
Nothing can be guaranteed. Sometimes a pilot can go all the way to the slide with the horn blowing ...

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Incidentally that's a horrible approach and landing - nevermind the gear not being lowered. They're nosediving the runway, look to land fast, and are no where near the centerline.
 
Tantalum said:
Incidentally that's a horrible approach and landing - nevermind the gear not being lowered. They're nosediving the runway, look to land fast, and are no where near the centerline.
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I dunno, looked like a pretty well executed short field approach. Just look how quickly they stopped! :D
 
Let me just say....it can happen to ANYONE. A few weeks ago I was asked by the tower to extend down wind. For some strange reason I "didn't" follow my usual routine of putting the gear down mid-field. I thought, I'll put the gear down on base. When base came tower was on me for looking for traffic and I was now number three. I got busy looking for traffic and didn't do the gumps check....turned final....and again more traffic to deal with and my elec trim was acting up. I somehow got flaps in.....and it wasn't slowing normally.....still no gumps.... Hmmmm. Fortunately the taxiway turn offs were closed for construction and I was planning on landing long. As I crossed the numbers about 100 ft high....I hear....."check gear...check gear". That's when arms and legs went flying and the gear came down....and we performed a go around.

Never did I think I could even do that....cause I thought my "routine" was imprinted well....but it did. No metal was bent and we will fly another day....but, with a bit more humility. ;)
 
Tantalum said:
Incidentally that's a horrible approach and landing - nevermind the gear not being lowered. They're nosediving the runway, look to land fast, and are no where near the centerline.
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Good thing it was a GU landing as the wheel brakes would not likely have kept them from rolling off the end. The belly brake sure was effective. LOL
 
I do T&Gs on occasion, to stay sharp and maybe get out of someone's way. If I need to go around I usually see it far before the rubber meets the pavement. I don't do landing cycles ever, too easy to think you put the gear down when you didn't. Not much point to them in a complex aircraft anyway. If I want to do landings I want to do through the whole procedure, which includes some energy management and other things way past the level of GUMPS.

Last time I talked to the controllers at my drome they told me about a Bo that came in gear up. They felt badly they didn't have time to tell him.
 
robin ardoin said:
Good thing it was a GU landing as the wheel brakes would not likely have kept them from rolling off the end. The belly brake sure was effective. LOL
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Wouldn't have been a problem. Megève is short, but has a hefty slope of 7% and up to 9,3%
Except for the gear the approach wasn't quite as bad as it looked, there is some optical illusion there because of the slope.
 
Spinka said:
Wouldn't have been a problem. Megève is short, but has a hefty slope of 7% and up to 9,3%
Except for the gear the approach wasn't quite as bad as it looked, there is some optical illusion there because of the slope.
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They did look high at the beginning, but at the end they certainly didn't look fast. Actually, they looked kinda slow.
 
My old instructor used to smack my hand if I so much as reached for flaps or any switch till clear of runway, and that was in fixed gear. My hand still stings. Thanks Woody (RIP Sir).
 
Can't imagine having my hand 'slapped' going over very well.... maybe it's a cultural thing.
 
He was an old Vietnam era, F4 Marine pilot. I had, and still do, the upmost respect for that man. You did things by the book, numbers, and procedure. He drove every point home because he saw blood from those who deviated. But you are right. If you took offense he was at a minimum done with you. Trust me, that’s the best outcome you could hope for. No one messed with Woody. Nobody. I owe my life to that man.
 
Salty said:
They did look high at the beginning, but at the end they certainly didn't look fast. Actually, they looked kinda slow.
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I may be wrong, but it looked to me like they were following a hill down to an airport in a valley. If so, they may have been high initially with respect to the airport, but not very high above the local ground.
 
I must be taking crazy pills. Nothing about that approach looked right. If you check out the airport on the map the runway is lined up with the canyon, even if you have to come in a little steeper this looks severe

Followed by the abrupt flare and the way left of centerline landing..

Nevermind the whole gear issue. Could there be more to that part of the story ?
 
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