Utah lowering DUI limit

Tantalum said:
outside of my immediate family everyone else in my family still lives in Hungary.. when visiting they're I've always been taught basically the same as you.. that if you drive and even think about booze you'll be locked up in the Gulag. They take drinking and driving REMARKABLY seriously

...BUT: they also have a working infrastructure system.. where, from my grandmother's house (which is on a dirt road in the boonies) I can walk half mile to a bus stop, ride it a few stops, and take the train all the way into downtown Budapest.. under 50 minutes to make it from her house into downtown. And, even after the train stops around midnight, you still have busses running all night

the reason we have drinking and driving here is that the same infrastructure doesn't exist here..
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I couldn't agree more. When my mother was dying in Tampa, and I was there to be with her, taking public transportation was like a huge FU to anyone unlucky enough to need to use it. Seems like the folks using it were all very poor, and resigned to "my time is not at all valuable" as conn toons were hideously bad, you'd get to a connection and the bus "just left" and then...1.5 Hours til the next one or something like that.

When my mother was still alive we were in key west and I suggested taking public transportation, and it was like I suggested something terrible. "Normal" people don't take busses apparently. It's messed up.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I couldn't agree more. When my mother was dying in Tampa, and I was there to be with her, taking public transportation was like a huge FU to anyone unlucky enough to need to use it. Seems like the folks using it were all very poor, and resigned to "my time is not at all valuable" as conn toons were hideously bad, you'd get to a connection and the bus "just left" and then...1.5 Hours til the next one or something like that.

When my mother was still alive we were in key west and I suggested taking public transportation, and it was like I suggested something terrible. "Normal" people don't take busses apparently. It's messed up.
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For the first 17 years of my life i lived in a country where a personal car was almost non-existent. Everything was public transpiration. It was extensive in cities(I lived in a very large city) and traveling between cities. Subways, buses, light rail, trolleys, electric buses, even minibuses, not to mention taxis. We had it all. It was dirt cheap(practically free) too. We did not own a car. Couldn't afford it and really didn't need it. IT SUCKED! I do not care how extensive public transpiration is. It still sucks compared to a private car. The only way to make it appealing is to make car owning or using very affordable or very inconvenient.

So yeah, i do not cry for a better public transportation.
 
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genna said:
For the first 17 years of my life i lived in a country where a personal car was almost non-existent. Everything was public transpiration. It was extensive in cities(I lived in a very large city) and traveling between cities. Subways, buses, light rail, trolleys, electric buses, even minibuses, not to mention taxis. We had it all. It was dirt cheap(practically free) too. We did not own a car. Couldn't afford it and really didn't need it. IT SUCKED! I do not care how extensive public transpiration is. It still sucks compared to a private car. The only way to make it appealing is to make car owning or using very affordable or very inconvenient.

So yeah, i do not cry for a better public transportation.
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That is your prerogative. But the simple truth is, sure...everyone that can afford an automobile thinks it is easier to drive than use public transportation. But you can't drive drunk. That leaves public or other bad alternative. Further, in Europe, they make driving a penalty, with raising prices, getting rid of parking places and the few that remain cost enormously, toll roads, etc. it becomes very costly to drive. Then you need an alternative.

I'm not saying what I think of it, but it is what it is. A few years back I realized taking a Ryanair flight to Dublin cost less than traveling from outside Oslo into Oslo.
20 km vs. whatever it is from Oslo to Dublin, cost less to take an airplane to Dublin than to go to the center of Oslo. We are insane.
 
LongRoadBob said:
taking public transportation was like a huge FU to anyone unlucky enough to need to use it
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..it really is though. Even in a "clean" city like Boston it's a complete disaster. You'll wait 25 minutes for your train at Kenmore square, then have 6 in a row one behind the other. It seems like there is no actual strategy management behind it, just under paid people driving crappy equipment on crappy tracks with crappy (sometimes literally) riders.. and like you said, the only people riding it are the downtrodden, degenerate, unstable, etc. I'm often embarrassed for tourists who visit this country and see how pathetic our public infrastructure is

genna said:
It still sucks compared to a private car
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What country? The one in Budapest runs great.. and depending on your "mission" it is easier to get into downtown that way and not worry about parking, traffic, etc. Plus, want a beer or three with lunch? No big deal. It makes a big difference when the people riding the public transport with you are largely normal every day people, vs wearing soiled pants waving a stick around speaking in gibberish with vomit in half the seats and graffiti everywhere

genna said:
I do not care how extensive public transpiration is
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..but you should, because that also keeps congestion off the roads so people like you have less traffic to contend with... there should be enough money in the coffers collected from gas taxes, registration fees, parking violations, speeding tickets, metro passes, plus a host of other taxes and "green energy funds" that there should be plenty of money out there to make the system not suck
 
LongRoadBob said:
That is your prerogative. But the simple truth is, sure...everyone that can afford an automobile thinks it is easier to drive than use public transportation. But you can't drive drunk. That leaves public or other bad alternative. Further, in Europe, they make driving a penalty, with raising prices, getting rid of parking places and the few that remain cost enormously, toll roads, etc. it becomes very costly to drive. Then you need an alternative.
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Now there's Uber/Lyft. I live in a city where many people don't have cars, and public transportation is doable. But ridership on public transportation is down because of the people using ride-sharing services. I can't see myself not owning my own car, unless I become unable to drive it. However I grew up and spent most of my adult life in locations where a car was a necessity. On the other hand, if I'm going somewhere in the city, I often use public transportation because of the lack (or expense) of parking at the destination.
 
LongRoadBob said:
But you can't drive drunk
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..exactly! which was the point of this thread anyway and why public transportation came into the mix. Drinking and driving is a problem here because people really have no other (reasonable) means of transportation to get to and from a dinner, bar, etc.

For some statistics:
In 2016 roughly 10,500 people died from alcohol related car crashes, that's almost 30 people per day. Compared to flying, there were just 408 fatalities total, according to NTSB. Gun related homicides in 2016 were about 11,000.. generally similar to drunk driving (and that statistic is hugely skewed because a lot of that comes from gang related violence or mass casualty events).. so I never really understood why we give drunk driving a pass. That's got to be one of the most pointless ways to die, take a family of four out in a minivan by a drunk driver T-boning them because they ran a red light. The best part is, the drunk driver usually survives with minimal injuries
 
Tantalum said:
What country? The one in Budapest runs great.. and depending on your "mission" it is easier to get into downtown that way and not worry about parking, traffic, etc. Plus, want a beer or three with lunch? No big deal. It makes a big difference when the people riding the public transport with you are largely normal every day people, vs wearing soiled pants waving a stick around speaking in gibberish with vomit in half the seats and graffiti everywhere
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The country was USSR. But i never said that it didn't run great. It ran GREAT. It still sucked. Everyone was using it. Short of a few people that were a lot more equal then others. My point was that even a GREAT public transpiration is still completely inferior to a personal car. UNLESS you are in places where personal car is too expensive and too inconvenient.

As a person who used to often visit NYC and have used its subway, i'd still take driving and parking in Manhattan over using its public transportation. However, if i lived in Manhattan, I wouldn't own a car at all.
 
Everskyward said:
However I grew up and spent most of my adult life in locations where a car was a necessity.
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..same here, that's why the prospect of autonomous cars is exciting to me. Uber / Lyft are great, but in some places aren't readily available. But an autonomous car? Now we're talking. Sure the current tech is not perfect.. but I'd still feel safer being on the road with someone who is drunk but being driven autonomously than someone who is drunk but behind the wheel "eh don't worry about it, Waze told me where the checkpoint is, I only had 6 beers and 2 shots, I'm fine"
 
genna said:
The country was USSR.
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Interesting, I never rode in a Soviet, or Russian public transport but my friend from Moscow would rave about it. I am pretty sure most of Hungary's transport system was either built by, or with the help of Soviets

Either way, a healthy infrastructure does help all involved. For people like you who prefer to drive it still makes the roads less congested for them.. and I'd rather a bigger portion of my automobile related expenses go to public transport infrastructure than some other uses
 
Tantalum said:
Interesting, I never rode in a Soviet, or Russian public transport but my friend from Moscow would rave about it. I am pretty sure most of Hungary's transport system was either built by, or with the help of Soviets

Either way, a healthy infrastructure does help all involved. For people like you who prefer to drive it still makes the roads less congested for them.. and I'd rather a bigger portion of my automobile related expenses go to public transport infrastructure than some other uses
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I'm sure he would rave about it. I think i said it a few times already. It was great. But even great is a lot worse to car. Ask your friend if he prefers Moscow's pt or his car.
 
genna said:
USSR
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Speaking of Moscow and the USSR, is your avatar a TU-104? I always had a sweet spot for the Russian Tupolev airliners. A friend of mine was doing some contract oil pipeline work in Russia and they chartered (?) a TU-154.. he actually got the chance to fly it left seat for a few minutes.. pretty freaking cool!
 
Tantalum said:
Speaking of Moscow and the USSR, is your avatar a TU-104? I always had a sweet spot for the Russian Tupolev airliners. A friend of mine was doing some contract oil pipeline work in Russia and they chartered (?) a TU-154.. he actually got the chance to fly it left seat for a few minutes.. pretty freaking cool!
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Yes, TU-104. The first "successful" passenger jet :). Although Russians do make a lot of jokes about it being a coffin in the sky(and it is). I've flown in a 134 and 154 as a kid. 104s were not in service by then. After that my first western plane experience was in a PanAm 747. Bit of a shocker :)...
 
genna said:
Yes, TU-104. The first "successful" passenger jet :). Although Russians do make a lot of jokes about it being a coffin in the sky(and it is). I've flown in a 134 and 154 as a kid. 104s were not in service by then. After that my first western plane experience was in a PanAm 747. Bit of a shocker :)...
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Sounds like you have a pretty interesting life, would love to hear more!!
 
In both Norway and Hungary the draconian approach to DUI is an exaggerated response to the negative role alcohol used to play in daily life. The 0.05 threshold now in force in Utah is in line with what most other european countries have been using for many years.
 
The whole BAC thing is a scam and makes zero sense.
 
Matthew said:
This may be why some attorneys recommend (depending on the State) declining the roadside sobriety test. Take the breathalyzer at the station or the blood test, but don't incriminate yourself by agreeing to stagger around on the side of the road.
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Exactly correct!

Zeldman said:
I know a couple people that do not drink or use drugs to get impaired, and they still can't walk a straight line....
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This is very true as well. I handle DUI cases and the field sobriety tests with the exception of the PBT are BS. I know too many perfectly sober folks who can’t pass .

weilke said:
The problem with repeat offenders are the judges. Even when the law calls for jail sentences, they will frequently ''suspend' everything but the few hours the offender may have spent in detention.
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You can’t generalize. May jurisdictions have mandatory minimums where the Judge must give a sentence of incarceration.
 
azblackbird said:
Yep, times have definitely changed. I remember 35 years ago I was quite the social drinker. I drank Crown Royal like it was water. I've been pulled over more times than I can count while my friends and I were sloshed out of our minds. Never ever got a DUI though. I was always able to talk my way out of it. I remember being pulled over 3 times in one night with a car load of my buddies. Cops told us to get our asses straight home. Back then were very tolerant and understanding. Wasn't long after I had my "come to Jesus moment" about drinking and driving when I flipped my car 6 times end over end. Luckily I was so drunk I walked away with just a scratch on my ear. Thankfully I didn't have anybody with me.

Nowadays it's a different story. I'll have a couple glasses of wine with dinner or at a social gathering and that's about my limit if I know I'm going to be driving. Way too risky and way too expensive these days to even think about driving while impaired.
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6 times end over end? Yeap. Did you come up with the idea of a 1500 mile long distance cross country while somersaulting through the air? How do you know how many times if you were that drunk and nobody with you?

Sad.
 
AdamZ said:
You can’t generalize. May jurisdictions have mandatory minimums where the Judge must give a sentence of incarceration.
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Sure they have to give '18 months' but then turn around and suspend '17 months, 30 days and 18hrs'. And we know what a joke 'suspended' sentences are. You would think that another criminal act means you now serve the remaining 18 months. No, all you get is some joke like 30 days of 'backup time' rather than the full remaining sentence. Our courts don't really mean it.
 
weilke said:
Sure they have to give '18 months' but then turn around and suspend '17 months, 30 days and 18hrs'. And we know what a joke 'suspended' sentences are. You would think that another criminal act means you now serve the remaining 18 months. No, all you get is some joke like 30 days of 'backup time' rather than the full remaining sentence. Our courts don't really mean it.
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Perhaps where you are but there are jurisdictions such as mine where you can’t suspend a sentence, so again one can’t generalize.
 
Salty said:
6 times end over end?
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Actually 5 1/2 times because I ended up on my roof and had to crawl out through the back window. Pretty easy to figure out how many times I flipped given the distance from where I went off the road to where I ended up out in the middle of a corn field.

You're pretty sharp... tell me the year/make/model of my car. :rolleyes:

wreckedcar.png
 
azblackbird said:
Actually 5 1/2 times because I ended up on my roof and had to crawl out through the back window. Pretty easy to figure out how many times I flipped given the distance from where I went off the road to where I ended up out in the middle of a corn field.

You're pretty sharp... tell me the year/make/model of my car. :rolleyes:

View attachment 70440
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Holy mackerel. You are lucky to be alive!!!
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm not saying what I think of it, but it is what it is. A few years back I realized taking a Ryanair flight to Dublin cost less than traveling from outside Oslo into Oslo.
20 km vs. whatever it is from Oslo to Dublin, cost less to take an airplane to Dublin than to go to the center of Oslo. We are insane.
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You can fly from Geneva to Marrakech, Morocco for less than is costs to take a train to Zurich. The flight to Morocco is also cheaper than having dinner for two in Geneva.
 
Eric Stoltz said:
I would like to know more. I have never heard this side before.

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Because if you can pass the roadside olympics, have your balance, arnt sluring your speech, etc, than who cares.

All I care about is if you can actually drive the car, some people can drink like a fish and still out preform a sober housewife in a minivan, some people can’t even manage to walk down the road after only a few.
BAC might be important for your doc, but I only care about your performance, and if you can mentally and physically walk the line, balance on one foot and all that jaz, I really don’t care about what some little box says.
 
James331 said:
Because if you can pass the roadside olympics, have your balance, arnt sluring your speech, etc, than who cares.

All I care about is if you can actually drive the car, some people can drink like a fish and still out preform a sober housewife in a minivan, some people can’t even manage to walk down the road after only a few.
BAC might be important for your doc, but I only care about your performance, and if you can mentally and physically walk the line, balance on one foot and all that jaz, I really don’t care about what some little box says.
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So you are OK with alcoholics that have developed tolerance to high BACs? Because that is likely the only group that does so.
Though I do agree with you on one thing: it's the behavior that counts. I'm not a fan of check points; if you are so sloppy that you get pulled over, you've asked for it.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
So you are OK with alcoholics that have developed tolerance to high BACs? Because that is likely the only group that does so.
Though I do agree with you on one thing: it's the behavior that counts. I'm not a fan of check points; if you are so sloppy that you get pulled over, you've asked for it.
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It’s none of my business,

I hope they slow their drinking before they hurt their guts too much, but if they can drive to spec, I really don’t care.
 
Years ago, my wife had a sample personal breathalyzer from a prospective client. To test my BAC, I drank some alcohol, then blew into the breathalyzer. It registered nothing, but registered for her. It doesn't matter - I only need 1/2 oz. of alcohol to feel buzzed, and I'd rather not.
 
James331 said:
It’s none of my business,

I hope they slow their drinking before they hurt their guts too much, but if they can drive to spec, I really don’t care.
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I like to think it's a bit of my business. I like to have the freedom from being hit by a drunk driver on a public road. I don't care what test one thinks they should be able to pass, taking any drug and then driving is counter intuitive to reason.

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Eric Stoltz said:
I like to think it's a bit of my business. I like to have the freedom from being hit by a drunk driver on a public road. I don't care what test one thinks they should be able to pass, taking any drug and then driving is counter intuitive to reason.

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For sure!
But as you said some people can have a high BAC and fully function, some low and can hardly walk a straight line.

My point is a real DUI check, as in one that’s about logic and safety, not about power/control and being your parent, should only involve motor function, if you can pass a physical test made up from docs and professional drivers (like balance, walking a line, etc) than that should be that. I think we should also not allow police to keep ANY of the money generated via tickets and fines.
 
James331 said:
It’s none of my business,

I hope they slow their drinking before they hurt their guts too much, but if they can drive to spec, I really don’t care.
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Here's hoping they can fly to spec.
 
I have no problem with the lowered limit. People shouldn't drink and drive. However, I really don't believe that the roadside sobriety testing alone should be sufficient for charging a DUI. First of all, the testing is subjective. Secondly, not all police departments these days have cameras, and police have been known to make facts fit their narrative. I will give an example which happened to me. I am a physician and got called into the hospital at 1 am on a Saturday night. On the way back from the hospital I got a flat tire. Changed the tire and drove on. Unfortunately the spare slowly went flat about a mile from my house. Being that it was 2:30 am, I was tired and just wanted to get home, I decided to drive up the shoulder of the 2 lane road the last mile. At this point I was "pulled over". The deputy was sure he had a DUI stop, and didn't believe my explanation. He asked for me to do a sobriety check and I complied so that I could just go home to bed. Now, walking a straight line is no big deal most of the time. However, do it on a dark night, in front of a police cars bright headlights, bright spot light, and painfully bright flashing lights, when you are extremely tired, and it is a different story. I wasn't falling over, but the strobe effect from the lights was disorienting and I had to step off the line a few times. Then I was given the nystagmus test and apparently had mild nystagmus, which can be caused by sleep deprivation as well as caffeine. Based on these tests he felt he had sufficient probable cause and asked for breathalyzer which was 0.0%. Then he started asking about drugs and said he was going to arrest me and take me in for a blood test. Before he did that apparently he called in a more experienced officer and another squad car rolled up. I went through my story again and eventually they let me go home. However, it could have been much different, and even an unfounded arrest for suspicion of DUI is a big deal, and would have caused me huge problems with my job, my medical license, and my hospital privileges, not to mention my reputation. In any event, unless you have corroborated (video taped) evidence of severe impairment, the basic roadside testing they do is insufficient to stand alone in my opinion.
 
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