Upcoming Piper Announcement @ SnF

[Tantalum]

Well if you think there is a buck to be made in that market boldly go forth and certify something new.

I think about 95% of the people who say they'll buy a new 140kt 180hp kinda-4-seater for $150k right now will be the same ones saying "but you can buy a grumman tiger that does the same thing for $50k" the day you hit the market.

Oh for sure! Outside of the avionics market and experimental world, there really hasn't been much innovation in general aviation since the 1960s and 70s.. so there really is not much incentive to buy something new

 

[atbroome]

Well if you think there is a buck to be made in that market boldly go forth and certify something new.

I think about 95% of the people who say they'll buy a new 140kt 180hp kinda-4-seater for $150k right now will be the same ones saying "but you can buy a grumman tiger that does the same thing for $50k" the day you hit the market.

Where are these $50k Tigers with modern avionics? I must be looking in the wrong places.

 

[Ventucky Red]

One of the guys on the Piper fourm did some sleuthing and came up with a tail # N8051V registered as a PA 28.....

Piper did something like this in the late 80s.... it was called a Cadet. I don't think it took off for them... But, having a brand new Cherokee does sound appealing.

Here is an up-close look at one...

https://www.flyperformance.com/aircraft/1989-piper-pa-28-161-cadet-n91834-2/

 

[atbroome]

Modern avionics will be extra on either the new one or the old one.

I doubt you would be able to dig up enough working Century 1s and Narcos to outfit more than a few prototypes of the new one

 

[frfly172]

A pa 28 two door trainer? Hope they have the prototype,on display.

 

[Pilawt]

One of the guys on the Piper fourm did some sleuthing and came up with a tail # N8051V registered as a PA 28.....

FAA registration database says N8051V is a PA-28-181 -- in other words, an Archer.

Piper did something like this in the late 80s.... it was called a Cadet.

And the Cadet was just a re-hash of the concept of the bare-bones, fleet-spec Cherokee 140 Flite Liner (1971-74). Flite Liners were all sold as two-seaters (though many had the rear-seat package installed later), and the only factory options available were a 360-channel Genave navcom instead of the standard 100-channel unit, and blue trim paint instead of red.





Piper sold a bunch of Flite Liners to Piper Flite Centers and other schools. If you see an early '70s Cherokee 140 with a registration ending in "FL", chances are it started out as a Flite Liner.

The Cadet was based on the PA-28-161 Warrior. It had rear seats as standard, but like the Flite Liner it had no baggage door and there was no baggage area behind the rear seats ... and the only trim colors available were red and blue.

 

[aggie06]

I'm hoping for a new IO-720 single and maybe even a twin.

 

[zaitcev]

they also started the M10 which fizzled but they 'tried', I guess....

Same thing happened to Cirrus SR18, apparently.

 

[Dav8or]

PA-28, bold new graphics, the latest Garmin glass everywhere, diesel engine, composite prop, new cowl and wheel pants, insane price tag.

I hate to burst all the hopes, but you heard it here first.

 

[zaitcev]

The extra door may be helpful to them. I was very much interested in Sundowner for that reason. That said, I'm not going to buy a new piston single, not even an LSA.

 

[N1120A]

Let's assume they do a G3x, instead of the now standard G1000. How much will that really save? $10k? $20k? I can't imagine they're going to do something without GPS. I don't see how making it a retract would save money. Remember, with regards to retracts, other countries still mandate them for CPL training. I'm trying to figure out how they are going to drop the price. Do an experimental version of the Cherokee?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Let's assume they do a G3x, instead of the now standard G1000. How much will that really save? $10k? $20k?

I wouldn't be surprised if it saved $50K or even more.

I can't imagine they're going to do something without GPS.

Likewise.

I'm trying to figure out how they are going to drop the price. Do an experimental version of the Cherokee?

Build it in China.

 

[Ventucky Red]

PA-28, bold new graphics, the latest Garmin glass everywhere, diesel engine, composite prop, new cowl and wheel pants, insane price tag.

I hate to burst all the hopes, but you heard it here first.

My take... PA28, pretty bland on the paint to help keep the cost down " a little" and allow for flight school personal touches. Yes, a glass cockpit as you stated, but maybe an option to go with steam gauges for a lessor price.. Avionics... for sure an IFR GPS duel nav/comm set up as the starting point. I understand the diesel to accommodate the fuel issues in "other" countries... but Cessna dropped this???? Maybe an option between the two? Cowl and wheel pants... Lopresti comes to mind..

As for the price... I agree it will be lofty but I would hope to see it under $200K.... This may be possible if they are built in China or Amerika Sud. It is not like they don't have the tooling, jigs, and type certificate in hand. Sadly I don't think Piper is really looking at the domestic market with this roll out...

I am wondering if they were already approached by some flight school or some other organization to run a special production on the Cadet or something and they're piggy backing this to garner some additional sales... Wouldn't be surprised if there is a big announcement in a week or so that some flight school in China purchased 100 of them..

 

[mondtster]

My take... PA28, pretty bland on the paint to help keep the cost down " a little" and allow for flight school personal touches. Yes, a glass cockpit as you stated, but maybe an option to go with steam gauges for a lessor price.. Avionics... for sure an IFR GPS duel nav/comm set up as the starting point. I understand the diesel to accommodate the fuel issues in "other" countries... but Cessna dropped this???? Maybe an option between the two? Cowl and wheel pants... Lopresti comes to mind..

As for the price... I agree it will be lofty but I would hope to see it under $200K.... This may be possible if they are built in China or Amerika Sud. It is not like they don't have the tooling, jigs, and type certificate in hand. Sadly I don't think Piper is really looking at the domestic market with this roll out...

I am wondering if they were already approached by some flight school or some other organization to run a special production on the Cadet or something and they're piggy backing this to garner some additional sales... Wouldn't be surprised if there is a big announcement in a week or so that some flight school in China purchased 100 of them..

They already built essentially what you describe. My friend had a 201x Archer that was originally built for Purdue but never delivered. Plain paint, vinyl stripes, glass panel, etc. He just sold it used for a price point over $100k more than what you’re hoping for.

So, unless you can manufacture it somewhere else I don’t see the price point going lower on a similar airplane. How did the Chinese manufacturing work out for Cessna and the sky catcher?

 

[Pilawt]

My take... PA28, pretty bland on the paint to help keep the cost down " a little" and allow for flight school personal touches. Yes, a glass cockpit as you stated, but maybe an option to go with steam gauges for a lessor price.. Avionics... for sure an IFR GPS duel nav/comm set up as the starting point.

They already built essentially what you describe. My friend had a 201x Archer that was originally built for Purdue but never delivered. Plain paint, vinyl stripes, glass panel, etc. He just sold it used for a price point over $100k more than what you’re hoping for.

Yeah, that's already in the catalog. https://www.piper.com/aircraft/trainer-class/archer/

I understand the diesel to accommodate the fuel issues in "other" countries... but Cessna dropped this????

Cessna dropped it, but Piper has been offering the "Archer DX" and "DLX" with the Continental CD-155 as an option for years.

Sadly I don't think Piper is really looking at the domestic market with this roll out...

Actually, the growing number of US-based airline training academies, owned by or contracted to foreign carriers, is probably their #1 target market. Several of them here in the Phoenix area already use Archer IIIs, and Lufthansa's school at my home field is in the midst of converting their fleet of F33A Bonanzas to Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Piper wants a bigger slice of that pie.

 

[Ventucky Red]

THow did the Chinese manufacturing work out for Cessna and the sky catcher?

I was under the impression that the Skycatcher like the Piper Sport and a few other big name LSA ventures was a dud from the start.... There is a Skycatcher at Santa Paula.... looks real nice, but from what I am told... with full fuel it is a 180lbs person airplane...

 

[DaleB]

Chinese manufacturing had almost nothing to do with the Skycatcher's failure. Design decisions, chief among them the O-200 choice, did it in very quickly. It was just too porky to be a contender in the LSA market.

 

[N1120A]

I mean, I guess they could also be bringing back the Warrior, though it isn't particularly less expensive to build.

I was under the impression that the Skycatcher like the Piper Sport and a few other big name LSA ventures was a dud from the start.... There is a Skycatcher at Santa Paula.... looks real nice, but from what I am told... with full fuel it is a 180lbs person airplane...

The Piper Sport is a SportCruiser with Piper marketing. They still sell those, and they do decently. I've flown one - they are gutless and a bit squirrely in the pattern, but actually pretty fun to fly. The 162 was just a porky pile of junk.

 

[midwestpa24]

As for the price... I agree it will be lofty but I would hope to see it under $200K.... This may be possible if they are built in China or Amerika Sud. It is not like they don't have the tooling, jigs, and type certificate in hand. Sadly I don't think Piper is really looking at the domestic market with this roll out...

I don't think we will ever see a factory built 4 place airplane for that pricepoint, regardless of how they are outfitted. Even the new LSAs were $100k-$150k.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I don't think we will ever see a factory built 4 place airplane for that pricepoint, regardless of how they are outfitted. Even the new LSAs were $100k-$150k.

A trainer doesn't not need to be a four place airplane... I believe the AMD Alarus CH2000 hit the sub $150K price point.. and that came equipped with a 430 duel Nav/Comm set up...

Why Piper and Cessna/Beech for that fact, just don't bring back the bread and butter trainers in the way of the Tomahawk, 152, and the Skipper befuddles me.. But then again, I am not looking at the corporate spreadsheets and market anaylsys everyday... so what do I know?

 

[midwestpa24]

Why Piper and Cessna/Beech for that fact, just don't bring back the bread and butter trainers in the way of the Tomahawk, 152, and the Skipper befuddles me.. But then again, I am not looking at the corporate spreadsheets and market anaylsys everyday... so what do I know?

The issue with those particular models is the limited usefulness of them. Two hefty adults can't fly in one together. They cruise at half the speed of smell. Really limits the market for them, which drives up the unit cost. Most GA planes need 4 seats to be a very useful two person full fuel airplane.

 

[Brad Smith]

Piper is doing a pretty good job of keeping this new plane under wraps. They must have had a TSA-style shakedown of every employee entering or leaving the Piper factory to keep this a tight secret before the April introduction. Whatever it is, it's only an oddity to the average pilot as who is goimg to spend a couple hundred thou for a basic aircraft that doesn't perform any better than a 40 year old spam can? Flight schools with deep pockets will be thier main customer on this one.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Well if you think there is a buck to be made in that market boldly go forth and certify something new.

I think about 95% of the people who say they'll buy a new 140kt 180hp kinda-4-seater for $150k right now will be the same ones saying "but you can buy a grumman tiger that does the same thing for $50k" the day you hit the market.

Not me; having "been there, done that" with old planes, I want something new.

 

[FormerHangie]

Having read the release, it seems pretty obvious that whatever they're revealing is going to be a primary trainer marketing to the big flight schools and university aviation programs. I would assume any such aircraft will have fixed (and quite sturdy) landing gear. Just because there are no landing gear visible in the picture doesn't mean it's a retractable.

As an aside, it's pretty amazing that the first step to flying an airliner is learning to fly a Cherokee or 172.

Edit: Maybe this aircraft will have the landing gear attached to the fuselage instead of the wings.

 

[RyanShort1]

It's high time they released a Piper version of the Cub... and start all the airline pilots out right. I mean, that's still one of their most famous products, right?

 

[Gerhardt]

I learned to fly in a 150, so when the sports came out I kinda figured they'd be the new training aircraft. But that didn't happen. Probably because most of us have put on a few pounds. Still, this is kind of like Christmas in April, waiting to unwrap the surprise.

 

[Crashnburn]

I was under the impression that the Skycatcher like the Piper Sport and a few other big name LSA ventures was a dud from the start.... There is a Skycatcher at Santa Paula.... looks real nice, but from what I am told... with full fuel it is a 180lbs person airplane...

That's about right.

 

[Crashnburn]

Chinese manufacturing had almost nothing to do with the Skycatcher's failure. Design decisions, chief among them the O-200 choice, did it in very quickly. It was just too porky to be a contender in the LSA market.

but it did have a cute nickname: SkySratcher!

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Does anyone build a ~200 hp turboprop? Turbine PA28...

 

[Todd82]

My first solo was in 2006 in ABE in one of those FL Flight liners. Without pulling out the old log I believe it was N586FL. Had the window crank style trim up in the headliner, and had the backseat / flight bag holder.

And it out climbed all the other PA28-140's in Gus's fleet by a couple hundred FPM!

 

[Pilawt]

Does anyone build a ~200 hp turboprop? Turbine PA28...

If you don't mind tandem seating, I got yer 300-hp Arrow right here (ENAER PA-28R-300/T-35 Pillan) ...

Piper's licensee in Argentina cobbled up an Arrow with a sliding canopy and 260 hp IO-540 as another proposed military trainer. There were no takers, and the prototype was rebuilt into a conventional civilian Arrow.

 

[Ventucky Red]

The issue with those particular models is the limited usefulness of them. Two hefty adults can't fly in one together. They cruise at half the speed of smell. Really limits the market for them, which drives up the unit cost. Most GA planes need 4 seats to be a very useful two person full fuel airplane.

So why are 152s, Skippers, and Tomahawks being scooped up for some ridiculously high prices.

 

[GRG55]

Dakota retract with composite wings and 2 doors.

Quityerbitchin. The Dakota always had 2 doors. The fact one is for baggage is merely a technicality.

Was a very attractive design.. they even had at least one sharp looking example built. No idea why they cancelled it.

Probably because Mooney didn't have the capital capability to see a new product all the way through design, certification, production, marketing and after-sales support. When you sell barely more than a half dozen of your existing airplanes each year there ain't any discretionary cash left over for things like new products, and raising or borrowing that type of money for a new GA plane might be a difficult venture for a company like Mooney these days. I'm not even sure Mooney has a sales network or dealers left, does it?

oh I totally get the business model, but given that I'm not in the market for a 7 million dollar private jet as a consumer I'm disappointed that my, albeit shrinking demographic, has been abandoned and I'm told that if I want a new piston single airplane that's either got to be a Cirrus or a 1960s s***box with a Garmin in it

Your demographic hasn't been abandoned. Cirrus makes a suite of piston aircraft (and now a jet), with logical step-up from one model to the next, and geared entirely to the private new airplane purchaser. Right down to the Cirrus Vision Center, where your plane gets delivered to you with musical accompaniment. That's what the near-infinite financial capacity of the Chinese government can do for us.

Seriously, this piston market for individual private owners is maybe 500 airplanes of all models annually, worldwide. There really isn't room for more than one large player, and maybe a few specialty airplanes like the aerobatic Decathlon and the Extras, and the pressurized Piper Malibu (which consistently sells in lower volume every single year compared to its turbine Meridian counterpart). And there is absolutely no evidence a new entrant could actually materially expand the market, instead it'll be a futile effort to take market share away from Cirrus. Who in their right mind would waste their time on that.

Cessna and Piper have correctly targeted the volume training market. Unlike the high net worth hordes, no Vision Centers needed to sell to those customers.

This pitch doesn't make any sense. Frankly I'm surprised they would attempt to re-brand a piston retract single trainer in this day and age, considering the changes to the commercial ACS effectively killing the Piper Arrow market. Furthermore, the time to have done the "Dakota RG" have frankly come and gone too, as much as that would have been more up my alley (Piper Comanche replacement.... which I still contend the Lance was never a suitable nor comparable replacement for)...

Lately the annual number of new single piston retractable aircraft of all types being sold is less than the total number of new piston twins sold each year. As I posted in this thread I started almost exactly two years ago, the retractable piston single is the real endangered species these days.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ed-species-retractable-piston-singles.102288/

Unless Piper's surveying of training academies has uncovered a real demand for a retractable single engine trainer, I would be surprised if that is what it announces.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm not even sure Mooney has a sales network or dealers left, does it?

They do. There's a nationwide network of service centers (about 40). Premier Aircraft is probably the largest dealer (they're also a Diamond and Husky dealer), but I can't find a list of the dealers.

 

[hindsight2020]

Unless Piper's surveying of training academies has uncovered a real demand for a retractable single engine trainer, I would be surprised if that is what it announces.

Agreed on all counts. So then, what's up with the ridiculousness of photo-shopping the silhouette to make it appear as a retract? Who the eff does that when attempting to pitch confidence in your own product? If this thing is indeed a FG Cherokee, my gawd what an embarrassment of a PR team.

 

[BrianNC]

Even the side view is at least made to look like a retractable:

https://www.piper.com/aircraft/trainer-class/pilot-100-coming-soon/

Over the past five years, sales of Piper training aircraft have increased more than 93%, with the single engine Piper Archer leading the demand. As a result of this growth and given the current industry forecast for the next twenty years, Piper Aircraft has identified a need for a new primary trainer aircraft. One that incorporates the robust pedigree of a true training platform and at a price point that can support the growing demand for pilots at training academies of all sizes.

Not sure how that could be a retractable "at a price point that can support the growing demand for pilots at training academies of all sizes."

 

[Salty]

but it did have a cute nickname: SkySratcher!

I jokingly call my buddies 162 a guycatcher or flycatcher.

 

[GRG55]

Agreed on all counts. So then, what's up with the ridiculousness of photo-shopping the silhouette to make it appear as a retract? Who the eff does that when attempting to pitch confidence in your own product? If this thing is indeed a FG Cherokee, my gawd what an embarrassment of a PR team.

It's a teaser promotion. I doubt it's a photo. More likely a completely computer rendered image for the advert.

Piper wouldn't appear to be certifying a new airframe (expensive, time consuming, and word would have leaked out by now) so almost certainly yet another derivative of the venerable Cherokee. But with an aging fleet the training mills have a need for New trainers, and demand now exceeds the maximum output of 172s Cessna is willing to allocate resources to manufacture each year.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I But with an aging fleet the training mills have a need for New trainers, and demand now exceeds the maximum output of 172s Cessna is willing to allocate resources to manufacture each year.

I think the issue with the new 172 is the price and the lack of "local" dealer support. Cessna is selling direct to the end user in the lower 48... there was a brand new one at the AOPA fly in last year at KCMA... the price was north of $400K and these are decked out aircraft with all the goodies, leather seats, G1000, etc.... It was sweet, but....... A few steps down from that was the AOPA Sweepstakes 172 that just had a total rebuild... I would be hard pressed to think that plane carried a retail price of more than $175K.. Even if I could write the check for the new one, the AOPA plane looked pretty nice.. and what the hell., it's a 172... I am sure Cessna could come out with a 172N or M version that is a basic aircraft that would hit the sub $300K market... But then again, there is Yingling Aviation that is refurbishing them with a starting price of $160K. If I were in the business of training pilots and renting aircraft... to me this is a no brainier... Case and point

https://generalaviationnews.com/2018/01/16/university-adds-ascend-172-to-fleet/

 

[mondtster]

I think the issue with the new 172 is the price and the lack of "local" dealer support. Cessna is selling direct to the end user in the lower 48... there was a brand new one at the AOPA fly in last year at KCMA... the price was north of $400K and these are decked out aircraft with all the goodies, leather seats, G1000, etc.... It was sweet, but....... A few steps down from that was the AOPA Sweepstakes 172 that just had a total rebuild... I would be hard pressed to think that plane carried a retail price of more than $175K.. Even if I could write the check for the new one, the AOPA plane looked pretty nice.. and what the hell., it's a 172... I am sure Cessna could come out with a 172N or M version that is a basic aircraft that would hit the sub $300K market... But then again, there is Yingling Aviation that is refurbishing them with a starting price of $160K. If I were in the business of training pilots and renting aircraft... to me this is a no brainier... Case and point

https://generalaviationnews.com/2018/01/16/university-adds-ascend-172-to-fleet/

To me the rebuilt planes are a no brainer too, Yet every time the topic gets brought up here and elsewhere you get people coming out of the woodwork claiming their $50k 172 with new paint, interior, and radios is the same. Quite frankly, they aren’t, but the refurbished planes aren’t going to make it with these people’s mentalities.

As far as the current offerings from Piper go, pricing is roughly the same as Cessna. As I alluded to in an earlier post my friend recently sold a lightly used Archer. It sold for a price in excess of $300k because new ones are around $400.

As someone else mentioned, Piper should really reintroduce the PA-18. The demand for those planes is obviously there, as evidenced by all the copies being sold. They would also make great training airplanes if prospective pilot’s priorities get slightly realigned.