Upcoming Piper Announcement @ SnF

Kudos to Piper for continuing to work to innovate their offering to GA!
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I haven't seen any real innovation from Piper (or Cessna, or Mooney) for decades. Hopefully it won't be another $700K single to compete with Cirrus.
Click to expand...

mooney added a second door...……….WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo

they also started the M10 which fizzled but they 'tried', I guess....
 
"... support the growing demand for pilots at training academies of all sizes ... "

"The 2018 Boeing Pilot & Technician Outlook currently projects that 790,000 new civil aviation pilots will be needed to fly the world fleet over the next 20 years."

" ... so that a wide spectrum of training provider’s [sic] can have access to real world training platforms. Future professional pilots need professional training equipment as do all training programs.”

Once upon a time the Cherokee 180/Challenger/Archer was a step-up cross-country airplane for families and small businesses. Now it's nothing more than a primary trainer for the airline puppy mills. Same with the Skyhawk.

So much for Piper's commitment to grass-roots general aviation, the industry that the name "Piper" once symbolized. That sound you hear is not a turbine ... it's Bill Piper spinning in his grave.

<sigh>
 
Last edited:
Kenny Phillips said:
I haven't seen any real innovation from Piper (or Cessna, or Mooney) for decades. Hopefully it won't be another $700K single to compete with Cirrus.
Click to expand...
Let's hope not. My biggest beef is with Cessna. They've pivoted hard to the corporate commercial turbine market. Their booth at Oshkosh was pathetic. A 210, Baron, and Bonanza sitting outside in the grass with virtually no fan fair.. when I was there I couldn't even find a brochure to either of the planes and no sales associate mingling. All of their attention was inside their tent, which was hopelessly empty save for a few 8th grade science project poster boards about the Denali and a very poorly done plastic mock up of the Denali fuselage that they were inviting people up into. It was honestly a very disappointing tent

Piper just feels like there's more passion still in there GA product. It's all relative of course. But you are right that aside from what Garmin has given us there's been very little actual advancement in piston GA (excluding Cirrus and the vast experimental market, which most recently gave us the crazy capable, crazy affordable Mako)
 
Tantalum said:
Let's hope not. My biggest beef is with Cessna. They've pivoted hard to the corporate commercial turbine market. Their booth at Oshkosh was pathetic. A 210, Baron, and Bonanza sitting outside in the grass with virtually no fan fair.. when I was there I couldn't even find a brochure to either of the planes and no sales associate mingling. All of their attention was inside their tent, which was hopelessly empty save for a few 8th grade science project poster boards about the Denali and a very poorly done plastic mock up of the Denali fuselage that they were inviting people up into. It was honestly a very disappointing tent

Piper just feels like there's more passion still in there GA product. It's all relative of course. But you are right that aside from what Garmin has given us there's been very little actual advancement in piston GA (excluding Cirrus and the vast experimental market, which most recently gave us the crazy capable, crazy affordable Mako)
Click to expand...
They had an ancient 210 on display?
 
If it's a $150K 180 HP glass cockpit primary trainer that cruises at 140 kts and can also hold four skinny people, I'm in.
 
They’re bringing back the Tomahawk!
 
I'm going with piper Cherokee tri-motor
 
Plug-in hybrid with a pilot side door. And a chute.
 
This pitch doesn't make any sense. Frankly I'm surprised they would attempt to re-brand a piston retract single trainer in this day and age, considering the changes to the commercial ACS effectively killing the Piper Arrow market. Furthermore, the time to have done the "Dakota RG" have frankly come and gone too, as much as that would have been more up my alley (Piper Comanche replacement.... which I still contend the Lance was never a suitable nor comparable replacement for).

In any event, if they don't do something about the PA-28 cabin width, it'll be a non-starter for the private market. 41.5" (unless it comes with 170KTAS or better, a la Bonanza) is just for the birds. Even for the trainer market, people are just fat these days, you need 45inches min, especially with non-openable windows.

Hell, I'm an Arrow owner, and I think Piper has no business keeping that line alive. I actually fully expected a formal announcement killing the Arrow and any further interest in piston retracts, in light of the ACS change. Them posting a teaser with a silhouette of a single retract with the slow cross section of a Cherokee just makes no sense to me. What training market are they even talking about? None currently supports complex singles, at all. I guess we'll see what kind of fumble these guys pitch this time around. It wouldn't be the first time Piper boneheads market pivots wholesale (Turbo dakota, non-retract dakota, lance for the comanche, no six cylinder engine on the arrow, et al ad nauseam). Piper fan here, but yeah this goose looks cooked already.
 
You know what I'm gonna give them credit, maybe it's a completely redesigned arrow with a jet-a powered engine and composite construction... with a chute.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This pitch doesn't make any sense. Frankly I'm surprised they would attempt to re-brand a piston retract single trainer in this day and age, considering the changes to the commercial ACS effectively killing the Piper Arrow market. Furthermore, the time to have done the "Dakota RG" have frankly come and gone too, as much as that would have been more up my alley (Piper Comanche replacement.... which I still contend the Lance was never a suitable nor comparable replacement for).

In any event, if they don't do something about the PA-28 cabin width, it'll be a non-starter for the private market.
Click to expand...
I don't think Piper is marketing its low-end planes to the private market. (Is there really such a thing, anymore?) Their few private sales they're making are at the top of their lines, where the profit margin is sufficient to maintain a production line that builds only handfuls of airframes a year.

Their high-volume orders are coming from flight schools. ATP here, and whoever is buying them in China. Whatever they're introducing at the low end of their model lines, it's going to be what the flight schools of the world want, not Joe Sixpack.
 
Jim_R said:
I don't think Piper is marketing its low-end planes to the private market. (Is there really such a thing, anymore?) Their few private sales they're making are at the top of their lines, where the profit margin is sufficient to maintain a production line that builds only handfuls of airframes a year.

Their high-volume orders are coming from flight schools. ATP here, and whoever is buying them in China. Whatever they're introducing at the low end of their model lines, it's going to be what the flight schools of the world want, not Joe Sixpack.
Click to expand...

i understand all that. the trainer market is chucking complex airplanes though. So that leaves international orders. i ask again, what training market is buying complex singles? seminoles maybe, not arrows thats for sure. and if indeed it is the chinese begging for arrows 2.0 (no evidence of this either btw), dafooq does making that announcement at sun n fun have anything to do with the price of tea in china, pun very much intended.

we ll see i suppose, hard to get excited about this from a domestic recrestional pov.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This pitch doesn't make any sense. Frankly I'm surprised they would attempt to re-brand a piston retract single trainer in this day and age, considering the changes to the commercial ACS effectively killing the Piper Arrow market. Furthermore, the time to have done the "Dakota RG" have frankly come and gone too, as much as that would have been more up my alley (Piper Comanche replacement.... which I still contend the Lance was never a suitable nor comparable replacement for).

In any event, if they don't do something about the PA-28 cabin width, it'll be a non-starter for the private market. 41.5" (unless it comes with 170KTAS or better, a la Bonanza) is just for the birds. Even for the trainer market, people are just fat these days, you need 45inches min, especially with non-openable windows.

Hell, I'm an Arrow owner, and I think Piper has no business keeping that line alive. I actually fully expected a formal announcement killing the Arrow and any further interest in piston retracts, in light of the ACS change. Them posting a teaser with a silhouette of a single retract with the slow cross section of a Cherokee just makes no sense to me. What training market are they even talking about? None currently supports complex singles, at all. I guess we'll see what kind of fumble these guys pitch this time around. It wouldn't be the first time Piper boneheads market pivots wholesale (Turbo dakota, non-retract dakota, lance for the comanche, no six cylinder engine on the arrow, et al ad nauseam). Piper fan here, but yeah this goose looks cooked already.
Click to expand...

I agree - you hit the nail on the head. If this is an arrow redux it's like... guys, they literally just killed the need for a retract trainer.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
All electric that can do a whole lap in the pattern before a recharge is needed?







All for the low cost of $599,000. Delivery extra.
 
Tantalum said:
Was a very attractive design.. they even had at least one sharp looking example built. No idea why they cancelled it.
Click to expand...

Same thing I was going to say. Pretty sharp looking airplane.
 
Tantalum said:
My biggest beef is with Cessna. They've pivoted hard to the corporate commercial turbine market. Their booth at Oshkosh was pathetic. A 210, Baron, and Bonanza sitting outside in the grass with virtually no fan fair..
Click to expand...

Um... Do you go to the same Oshkosh as the rest of us? OSH, Oshkosh Wisconsin, not OKS Oshkosh Nebraska?

'Cuz what I've seen there since it became Textron is usually about 8-10 products. Yes, generally a 182 and/or 206, sometimes a Caravan on amphibs, always at least one King Air, usually two (a 90 and one of the bigger ones), and usually a jet or two (usually a CJ3/CJ4, maybe an M2).

Yes, I was also unimpressed by the Denali mockup, but that's because I'm unimpressed by any mockup. Show me something that flies.
 
^unless I completely missed it I don't recall seeing anything there other than the Denali mock up and a handful of piston singles. Would have been nice to see some jets there and the King Air
 
Given what Piper is saying on their web site, I'm guessing it's this:

Either an "Archer IV" or "Arrow V" variant on the PA28 series, or both, with the updates designed specifically for high dispatch rates and low maintenance, worldwide operations, and cost as low as possible.

That means it'll likely be a diesel, probably a Continental CD-155, so the limited avgas availability (and high price) in other countries isn't a problem, and the low per-gallon cost and low consumption (5 gph) keeps costs down. It also has a single power lever - No need for future airline pilots to learn about prop and mixture in a piston engine, not to mention that likely helps with longevity and fuel burn as well.

It'll have cloth seats that are engineered for durability (kevlar maybe).

It'll have modern avionics, likely Garmin, but probably as cheap as possible - Not a G1000+GFC700, but more like a G3X Touch/G5/GFC 500 combo, with maybe a GNX375/GNC255 package with optional upgrade to GTN 650/GNC255/GTX345.
 
Tantalum said:
^unless I completely missed it I don't recall seeing anything there other than the Denali mock up and a handful of piston singles. Would have been nice to see some jets there and the King Air
Click to expand...

Did you go on Sunday?
 
Tantalum said:
Was a very attractive design.. they even had at least one sharp looking example built. No idea why they cancelled it.
Click to expand...

Economics. They probably couldn't afford to build it for less than X price and given that price, they'd have very few sales. I mean, if it was more expensive than the DA-20, well they're screwed.
 
Matbe they are going to make an aircraft that you can see down.
 
DenverDave said:
Let's see, dink around trying to please a tiny group of tightwads who want a new plane but can't afford a new Cirrus or dominate the business jet market.
Click to expand...
oh I totally get the business model, but given that I'm not in the market for a 7 million dollar private jet as a consumer I'm disappointed that my, albeit shrinking demographic, has been abandoned and I'm told that if I want a new piston single airplane that's either got to be a Cirrus or a 1960s s***box with a Garmin in it
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Did you go on Sunday?
Click to expand...
I was there for a couple days, neither day did they seem impressive. Might as well have called it the Denali booth. The Piper tent was packed and they had a cool vibe there, as did Pilatus and just about everyone else. Mooney's space was small, but they brought energy

But I'm just one person. Ultimately irrelevant. When the right financial conditions prevail I'll be purchasing either a Cirrus, TBM, or PC24.. maybe in that order?!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top