Univeristy of Illinois Aviation Program recomended to be closed

ScottM

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iBazinga!
UIUC also own the airport, KCMI

As part of an effort to cut costs at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, top officials announced today their recommendation to shut down the Institute of Aviation.
The 54-year-old program provides students with pilot certification as well as degrees in aviation human factors, a psychology-based discipline that focuses on improving the safety of airplanes and pilots.

It is the first academic program recommended for elimination under the "Stewarding Excellence" process to find ways to reduce costs and generate more revenue. The faculty senate and board of trustees would have to agree before it is discontinued.
The relatively small program has 156 undergraduate and graduate students this fall, and officials said they will be allowed to complete their studies. Closing the program will save at least $500,000 to $750,000 a year, but it could take years before those savings are realized, said Interim Chancellor Robert Easter, who co-wrote the letter announcing the recommendation.
"From our perspective, this is what we have to do," Easter told the Tribune. He said there has not been "enormous pushback" to the decision, adding that "there is a general understanding of the challenges we are facing."
The Institute of Aviation submitted a letter to officials earlier this year advocating retention of the program. The unsigned six-page letter argued that there would be no cost savings, a unique program would be lost, more than 60 employees would lose their jobs and it would negatively affect the local Willard community airport.
Easter said officials looked into whether the human factors degree programs could transfer to another college, such as engineering, but so far no home has been found for them. He also said the non-degree pilot certification program could continue if there is a way to make it self-supporting.
U. of I. and other public universities have been struggling with delayed payments from the state, leading to furloughs, pay freezes and other cost-cutting measures.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/...:+ChicagoBreakingNews+(Chicago+Breaking+News)


UIUC may then also be closing or more likely selling the airport. One of the things I really like about the airport is that it has bus service right to the FBO. As a student I get free bus service, well not free, it is part of my tuition. When I do have to go to campus it is nice to catch the bus right to where I need to go.
 
Wasn't that the default airport in the Flight Simulator program before MicroSoft bought it? Back when Bruce Artwick wrote the program and ran the company?
 
This could be a good thing for SIU-C's (my alma mater) aviation program. That program has recently began construction on a new facility to house both the aviation program and automotive program (my program).
 
Maybe they need to teach the kids about fees. Reserved seats in the front of the class, $20. Credit card fee for tuition, $50. Bring a soda to class, $10. Slot on the coat rack, $15.

:wink2:
 
This is the way of all things Illinois. The State subsidy to the U system is so small that many parents send their kids to an out of State Big 10 for not much more.

It a heinous situation.
 
Can't say I blame them. I'm going to guess that an aviation program is considerably more expensive than, say, English Lit, or Geology.

Of course, if you are a niche university, you might want to keep the programs that distinguish you from other niche universities. Is UIUC's comparative advantage over other schools producing Geology majors, or Aviation majors? Maybe they should dump a bunch of programs with little to distinguish them (say, Sociology, or English, or Chemistry) and save the ones that do.
 
Wasn't that the default airport in the Flight Simulator program before MicroSoft bought it? Back when Bruce Artwick wrote the program and ran the company?

It was included, but Meigs was the default.
 
I flew into that airport last summer to meet with my daughter for a college visit. The bus to campus made it easy. I think I'll vote against U of IL if that going to go away. FWIW, Purdue had a nice airport right on the main campus! I hope she picks that one.

UIUC also own the airport, KCMI

UIUC may then also be closing or more likely selling the airport. One of the things I really like about the airport is that it has bus service right to the FBO. As a student I get free bus service, well not free, it is part of my tuition. When I do have to go to campus it is nice to catch the bus right to where I need to go.
 
This is indeed how things are going at Universities all over the country. Enrollments are up, subsidies are down, and small specialized (and expensive) programs are on the block,
 
This is the way of all things Illinois. The State subsidy to the U system is so small that many parents send their kids to an out of State Big 10 for not much more.

It a heinous situation.
It is the 2nd most expensive public school in the Big 10. Penn State cost more.

I know a lot of guys who send their kids to UIowa as the out of state tuition is less the UIUC's instate.
 
I flew into that airport last summer to meet with my daughter for a college visit. The bus to campus made it easy. I think I'll vote against U of IL if that going to go away. FWIW, Purdue had a nice airport right on the main campus! I hope she picks that one.
I have flown into Purdue but I seem to recall the airport is not on main campus, but not too far away, like a block or two or maybe just across the street. But you are right it is closer than the UIUC airport to main campus.

I did see that UIUC is stating the airport will be unaffected in another report. There is commercial air service into the airport. But one really has to ask the question why the university would be interested in keeping the airport if they do not have an aviation program?

Also in another report they mentioned that the College of Engineering or College of LAS will likely take over the human Factors graduate programs. But both have said NO to the undergrad aviation sciences. SIU has a vibrant aviation program and it is likely that is who would pick up the slack.
 
we used to fly into purdue twice a week. very close to campus. many of the aviation students just walk to the airport.
 
It occurs to me - could this be an unintended consequence of the recent law that requires the ATP for 121 pilots? Pretty much tells all the folks considering a University aviation program that they're NOT gonna get a 121 flying job immediately after graduation. That may make traditional universities see a reduction in demand for the programs.
 
who has gotten a 121 job right of college in the last 9 years anyway?
 
who has gotten a 121 job right of college in the last 9 years anyway?

I know of a few who went to the right seat at places like Colgan, when business was booming. But the new law says that even if demand is way up again, we won't see the 300-hour first officers again. And there were LOTS of University programs (still are) that went after that market.

Edit: I just wonder how the new law is affecting the forecasts of the various flight training institutions. There are a lot of non-traditional places like Utah Valley that will continue to be good for folks who already have the flight time and need the degree, and ones that do a lot of foreign flight training. Places like the ComAir Academy or other schools that used to produce folks with 5-700 hours for the regional carriers will probably suffer as a result of this law. Not saying that's a bad thing for the industry overall - there's an oversupply of qualified airmen for the market right now. But I wonder what will happen if we ever see the boom times again and the smaller carriers are hurting for folks to hire. The FAA can't change this rule on their own anymore - one of the problems with legislating a thing that should be done via regulation.
 
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oh yea, Teller got in at the perfect time. That was about a 6 month window. 99% of pilots who go through a college or other 141 training program spend a couple years instructing or doing whatever else to build time until they can get to the right seat anyway.
 
we used to fly into purdue twice a week. very close to campus. many of the aviation students just walk to the airport.
Lewis University in Romeoville, IL has a good aviation program, and the airport is right on the edge of campus. They might benefit from the proposed closure at UIUC too.
 
I know of a few who went to the right seat at places like Colgan, when business was booming. But the new law says that even if demand is way up again, we won't see the 300-hour first officers again. And there were LOTS of University programs (still are) that went after that market.
There have been very few times, historically, when 300 hour first officers were a reality. I don't think they have ever been the norm except perhaps back in the 1960s.
 
There have been very few times, historically, when 300 hour first officers were a reality. I don't think they have ever been the norm except perhaps back in the 1960s.
In the mid-late nineties they were common. I had three instructors head for regionals with less than 500 hours and all of them made it through training and out onto the line.
 
In the mid-late nineties they were common. I had three instructors head for regionals with less than 500 hours and all of them made it through training and out onto the line.
But you are cherry-picking a very small slot of time. That probably only lasted from about 1998-2000. I remember because I was looking for another job at that time. The previous 10 years were a pretty bad time for finding a pilot job. I know lots of people who graduated from aviation programs in the late 1980s-early 1990s who had a very hard time finding a job other than CFI.
 
But you are cherry-picking a very small slot of time. That probably only lasted from about 1998-2000. I remember because I was looking for another job at that time. The previous 10 years were a pretty bad time for finding a pilot job. I know lots of people who graduated from aviation programs in the late 1980s-early 1990s who had a very hard time finding a job other than CFI.
OK. How does this affect my point about what happens the next time there's a hiring boom like that?

Do you think that the law had no effect on the training industry?

Edit: 1000 hour, or 1200 hour part 121 F/Os are no longer possible - does that make a difference?

I'm just glad they didn't do this to 135 too. Guess they figure the public that flies charter doesn't need the same "protection" that the public that flies airlines does.
 
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Wasn't that the default airport in the Flight Simulator program before MicroSoft bought it? Back when Bruce Artwick wrote the program and ran the company?

The company that wrote Flight Simulator came from a UI incubator...as did Marc Andresen who wrote the Mosaic browser, which gave birth to Netscape, Mozilla Firefox and through a company called Spyglass, Microsoft Internet Explorer.
 
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OK. How does this affect my point about what happens the next time there's a hiring boom like that?

Do you think that the law had no effect on the training industry?

Edit: 1000 hour, or 1200 hour part 121 F/Os are no longer possible - does that make a difference?
I don't think it has no effect but I don't think as great an effect as you think it does because college aviation programs have been around for a long time even when hiring was bad. Now it might cut down on some of those 0 to airline seat in six months programs but I don't necessarily see that as being a negative.

I'm just glad they didn't do this to 135 too. Guess they figure the public that flies charter doesn't need the same "protection" that the public that flies airlines does.
People wanting to work for 135 companies have another problem, though. There are a couple different auditing companies (ARG/US and Wyvern) which 135 operators use in order to get a "seal of approval". This is not FAA mandated but is an internal industry thing to supposedly prove to your customers that you have certain standards. Here are the Wyvern requirements. If you scroll down to the SIC portion you will see that although they don't require an ATP, you need 1500 hours with certain exceptions. Since these standards are not a regulation they are not set in stone but many charter operators will look for people who at least come close to meeting them.

http://www.charterx.com/mediafiles/store/58773/128340154179577025.pdf
 
Bummer to see this happen (I'm a UofI grad, and got my PPASEL there. My wife went through the human factors graduate program).

But, in these economic times, it isn't too surprising. The State of Illinois is very close to bankrupt and isn't writing too many checks these days.

A few months ago, I received a (mass) email from the office of one of the key University executives (cannot remember if it was Chancellor, President)... it said the State had paid like 1/5th of its annual obligation to the university, and as a result the University was having extreme difficulty with cash flow. They asked us to contact our State reps, senators, etc to beg them to release funds for the university.
 
Damn! My daughter just applied to a boat load of vet schools, and UIUC was on my preferred short list in part because of that airport.

First, the loss of Chief Illiniwek, and now this! Is Richy Daley looking to be U of I chancellor after the mayoral gig is up, and this is the first step in providing him an environment safe from GA terrorism?
 
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Damn! My daughter just applied to a boat load of vet schools, and UIUC was on my preferred short list in part because of that airport.
Don't sweat the airport. It looks like for the time being it will remain open. But even if it were to close Cham-bana has another airport, Frasca Field. It is just to the north of campus. I keep thinking of flying in there and mean to see if there is bus service.

And I wish her luck getting into any vet school. That is a tough field to get accepted into no matter where you apply.
 
And I wish her luck getting into any vet school. That is a tough field to get accepted into no matter where you apply.

Thanks. It's a brutal process just getting in. She wants to go the large animal route and has some experience there, so that should help, but you never know. We've spoken about the need for a plan B.
 
I have flown into Purdue but I seem to recall the airport is not on main campus, but not too far away, like a block or two or maybe just across the street. But you are right it is closer than the UIUC airport to main campus.

Well yeah, it's not literally inside the campus boundary but IIRC you can see some of the buildings from the terminal and I'll bet it's further from one corner of the campus to another than it is from the airport to the campus boundary.
 
Damn! My daughter just applied to a boat load of vet schools, and UIUC was on my preferred short list in part because of that airport.

And I wish her luck getting into any vet school. That is a tough field to get accepted into no matter where you apply.

Thanks. It's a brutal process just getting in. She wants to go the large animal route and has some experience there, so that should help, but you never know. We've spoken about the need for a plan B.

My Dad taught small animal surgery at the veterinary school at Washington State University for 30 years. He spent some time as the head of the admissions committee. I doubt things have changed much since then (30+ years ago), but then they typically had 700 applicants for 70 openings in the freshman class. And they wanted 70 who would graduate 4 years later, because every person who didn't make it took the place of someone else who might have. It was harder back then to get into veterinary school than it was to get into medical school.

Best of luck to your daughter. It takes more than just a 4.0 gpa to get in. Good that she has some experience. Working for a veterinarian, I hope.
 
It was harder back then to get into veterinary school than it was to get into medical school.
It still is.

There are 29 schools of veterinary medicine in the US and well over 160 schools of human medicine. Last year's statistics show that around 16,000 people applied for 2500 spots. But once you make it in then the real work starts. It is a really tough program.
 
Funny. My dad just retired after 45yrs at one of the leading Vet schools (teaching anatomy, physiology, neurophysiology). He was involved with admissions for the last 10-15yrs or so, and constantly bemoaned the decline in the quality of applicants. Quantity, sure, but in his view there isn't a lot of quality.

Not to say your kid isn't qualified. If he/she's good in science, there should be no problem getting accepted. Too many folks applying who want to be vets because they like petting dogs.
 
I'm surprised that there aren't more vet schools... it seems like there's a demand for more veterinarians, at least where I live, and if there's only 2000-ish vets graduating a year, maybe there's room for more.
 
I'm surprised that there aren't more vet schools... it seems like there's a demand for more veterinarians, at least where I live, and if there's only 2000-ish vets graduating a year, maybe there's room for more.

I wonder. I bet a vet school program isn't cheap, and I wonder what kind of incidental revenue it brings in. Medical schools generally have a lot of research that goes on, which brings in huge amounts of government and industry funding. I wonder if the same is true for veterinary programs. I'm just speculating, though. I really don't know what the economics of a veterinary program are.
 
Most vets don't make much money. Tough to pay back the loans.
 
That's hard to believe. Vet bills come behind only FBO bills in my household :p
According to a survey by the American Veterinary Medical Association, average starting salaries of veterinary medical college graduates in 2008 varied by type of practice as follows:

Small animals, exclusively $64,744
Large animals, exclusively 62,424
Small animals, predominantly 61,753
Mixed animals 58,522
Large animals, predominantly 57,745
Equine (horses) 41,636
I am really surprised about the horse docs. I would have thought they would earn the most.




And from the BLS

Median annual wages of veterinarians were $79,050 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $61,370 and $104,110. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,610, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $143,660.
No horrible but not MD ranges.
 
I think this is another case, somewhat like being a pilot, where being a vet is an appealing sounding job.
You might be right. But the BLS sure does not make it sound appealing

Work environment. Veterinarians in private or clinical practice often work long hours in a noisy indoor environment. Sometimes they have to deal with emotional or demanding pet owners. When working with animals that are frightened or in pain, veterinarians risk being bitten, kicked, or scratched.
Veterinarians who work with food animals or horses spend time driving between their offices and farms or ranches. They work outdoors in all kinds of weather and may have to treat animals or perform surgery, often under unsanitary conditions.



Veterinarians working in nonclinical areas, such as public health and research, work in clean, well-lit offices or laboratories and have working conditions similar to those of other professionals who work in these environments. Veterinarians in nonclinical areas spend much of their time dealing with people rather than animals.


Veterinarians often work long hours. Those in group practices may take turns being on call for evening, night, or weekend work; solo practitioners may work extended hours (including weekend hours), responding to emergencies or squeezing in unexpected appointments.
 
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