Univeristy of Illinois Aviation Program recomended to be closed

steingar said:
I actually got into a school of veterinary medicine many years ago, but chose a research track instead, and am very glad of it. From what I've gleaned from my colleagues in the vet school, there is quantity, but as another poster said, the quality is not evident. I do remember taking the veterinary aptitude test many years ago after lighting a show and drinking all night with no preparation whatsoever. I scored off the charts on a violent hangover. That experience gave me a particular disdain for the applicant pool of the day.

Veterinary schools are now mostly female, which give me pause when thinking about the field. Female-dominated professions have been historically underpaid and overworked, which certainly sounds like the veterinary field today.

And to continue the drift of this thread back toward its original subject, I doubt OSU will be closing it's aviation program or it's aeronautical engineering program any time soon. My own nephew is considering the latter.
Click to expand...

Years ago when my dad was the head of the admissions committee for the Veterinary school at Washington State University they typically had 700 applicants for 70 openings in the Freshman class. They could afford to be very picky about who they accepted, and they were. They wanted 70 incoming Freshmen who would be 70 graduating Seniors, because every one that didn't make it took the place of someone else who might have. And I hear it is every bit as competetive to get in now. Just having an undergraduate 4.0 isn't enough.
 
Everskyward said:
Here's an aviation school that is expanding...

http://www.rrstar.com/businessrockf...ry-Riddle-seeks-growth-other-schools-cut-back
Click to expand...

Yeah, but from stories I've heard, they're also charging more money than a professional pilot can make back in the first ten years of their career... if they're not furloughed and/or don't have to start over at another airline after a bankruptcy.

Students at ERAU with $250K in student loans are not out of the ordinary. Any school can afford to expand if people are crazy enough to pay those prices to have ERAU stamped on a sheepskin just hoping to garner those very few $25K/year FO slots that are hard enough to come by that being able to "ring-knock" with other ERAU (or... let's just face it... UND) students in the hiring department, makes all the difference between hired and not hired.

So the real question is, and always has been in aviation... is having an ERAU or UND on your resume' worth 10 or more years of indentured servitude to the Federal Student Loan program plus numerous non-Federally backed loans, probably on the backs of parents and other family who've put up their equity in their homes (well, back when they had equity anyway) to finance your career...? Or do you roll the dics and take your chances that you can squeak into a job from a cheaper school and hold on and luck out on the timing just long enough to get seniority, and hope that you hit the lotto jackpot of an airline that doesn't go under?

My suspicion here is that we're seeing consolidation in the Aviation University "market". State-run small schools are being squeezed out by the "Corporate Giants", just like in many other industries. ERAU, UND, Purdue... all names you're likely to see on Pilot applicant's job applications these days. Illinois Champagne-Urbana? Not really. You expect Computer Scientists from there.
 
denverpilot said:
So the real question is, and always has been in aviation... is having an ERAU or UND on your resume' worth 10 or more years of indentured servitude to the Federal Student Loan program plus numerous non-Federally backed loans, probably on the backs of parents and other family who've put up their equity in their homes (well, back when they had equity anyway) to finance your career...? Or do you roll the dics and take your chances that you can squeak into a job from a cheaper school and hold on and luck out on the timing just long enough to get seniority, and hope that you hit the lotto jackpot of an airline that doesn't go under?
Click to expand...
I don't know much about hiring in other fields but my guess is that the school where you got your degree and even your major are less important in aviation than many other professions. The area where students from these kinds of aviation programs have an advantage is in the networking and internship opportunities, plus they get indoctrination in the aviation culture early. I'm not sure you can put a monetary value on this but I think it gives these students an edge. I'm also of the opinion, which may be seen as anachronistic, that you don't just go to college in order to increase your potential paycheck. I've flown with a number of ERAU graduates and graduates from other university programs but most of them were 5-10 years or more past school. They were, as a group, indistinguishable from anyone else. The pilots I have known who were eventually hired by major airlines had many varying educational backgrounds.
 
Ghery said:
Years ago when my dad was the head of the admissions committee for the Veterinary school at Washington State University they typically had 700 applicants for 70 openings in the Freshman class. They could afford to be very picky about who they accepted, and they were. They wanted 70 incoming Freshmen who would be 70 graduating Seniors, because every one that didn't make it took the place of someone else who might have. And I hear it is every bit as competetive to get in now. Just having an undergraduate 4.0 isn't enough.
Click to expand...

It is super competitive. Of the 28 vet schools in the US, most have class sizes of 80-90 students. For those slots, the number of applicants are usually north of 1,000. At Mississippi State's College of Veterinary Medicine, there were 905 applicants for 85 slots. 847 of those were competing for 45 out of state slots.

In addition to the academics and GRE tests, vet school applicants have to have substantial hands-on veterinary experience, or experience working with animals. My daughter worked one summer (40 hours/week) at a "Wildlife in Need" caring for injured wild animals, from bard owls, hawks, raccoons (filthy critters which, in my opinion, can be treated with a .22 bullet), etc. The next summer she worked for a mixed animal / large animal rural veterinarian (again, 40 hours/week) assisting with farm calls for hoof rot, castrations, de-hornings, etc., and in-clinic work including assisting with surgeries, dental work, and euthenasia. She is currently working at a very large, 6 or 8-vet clinic. And when I say "worked" in all these cases, it really means full-time volunteering, without pay. That's the price to pay for being a qualified applicant.

This is necessary because the schools don't want applicants who just want to play with kittens and puppies, but who pass out when they do gross anatomy on a cow cadaver. As you correctly said, Ghery, they want every one of the incoming 1st year students graduating as DVMs in 4 years.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't know much about hiring in other fields but my guess is that the school where you got your degree and even your major are less important in aviation than many other professions. The area where students from these kinds of aviation programs have an advantage is in the networking and internship opportunities, plus they get indoctrination in the aviation culture early. I'm not sure you can put a monetary value on this but I think it gives these students an edge.
Click to expand...

I think we're saying the same thing, I'm just asking if it's worth ... well, let's say the flight training portion of an ERAU degree is roughly... very roughly... $100K of the total cost... so with students paying roughly... again, very roughly... $250K... are those connections worth $150K?

Everskyward said:
I'm also of the opinion, which may be seen as anachronistic, that you don't just go to college in order to increase your potential paycheck.
Click to expand...

At some point the cost/benefit analysis has to be done. General education is great, but it doesn't pay the bills. Especially not for those of us aspiring to remain aircraft owner/operators, since aircraft aren't cheap. I don't like always being pragmatic, but something as expensive as $250K (plus interest, a lot of interest) chosen as a path before age 25, has to have a cooling effect on your overall earning potential throughout your lifetime.

As an airline pilot at age 25, you only have 40 more years to earn it back (assuming the retirement rules don't change for Part 121 again in my lifetime), and try to build up a retirement nest egg. The numbers for these kids aren't good, but they're not looking that far ahead yet, most of them.

Those that do plan ahead, often won't sign up for a $250K "education", no matter how "educated" they might be, because at the end of the day, you gotta live in a lot of crash-pads and hotel rooms to make that nut back.

You can be excellently educated, and broke. Conversely, you can be an idiot and own assets that generate wealth. The averages show that educated folk make more in "jobs" -- which is what the majority of us do, but there's not nearly the correlation between education and wealth in the most wealthy entrepreneurs.

It all depends on how hard you want to work for it, I suppose. If life hands you moldy cheese, make some Blue Cheese dressing and sell it, ya know?

Everskyward said:
I've flown with a number of ERAU graduates and graduates from other university programs but most of them were 5-10 years or more past school. They were, as a group, indistinguishable from anyone else. The pilots I have known who were eventually hired by major airlines had many varying educational backgrounds.
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward. Utilizing the latest news that the trend is for the smaller State schools to downsize, and saying that I don't believe this will be the case in the future.

My prediction:

Unless pilot hiring demand goes way up, the majority of people in airline cockpits will probably be graduates of the big schools. If pilot demand goes up for a short period of time, those who work their network connections hard who aren't graduates of these big schools, will get in, and assuming the industry remains totally a "senority-based" system vs. say, a "talent-based" system -- which it probably will, since a large percentage of folks CAN be trained to fly a modern airliner, if they have the will and a small amount of aptitude -- those who "snuck in under the wire" will get to stay.

Granted, I'm not in the industry and it's all just a big guess on my part, but I enjoy thinking about patterns and paths that the industry might take. The trend is toward "Name Brand" pilot training for airlines, at high cost to the student.
 
denverpilot said:
You can be excellently educated, and broke. Conversely, you can be an idiot and own assets that generate wealth. The averages show that educated folk make more in "jobs" -- which is what the majority of us do, but there's not nearly the correlation between education and wealth in the most wealthy entrepreneurs.
Click to expand...
I don't think I put as much stock in "wealth" as you do. You can be wealthy and do all kinds of fantastic things with your money for yourself and other people. You can also be wealthy, bitter, unhappy, and very hard to be around. I have had the chance to observe various examples of this. I think that once you get past a moderate income where you are able to take care of your needs and a little bit more that wealth has no correlation with happiness.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think I put as much stock in "wealth" as you do. You can be wealthy and do all kinds of fantastic things with your money for yourself and other people. You can also be wealthy, bitter, unhappy, and very hard to be around. I have had the chance to observe various examples of this. I think that once you get past a moderate income where you are able to take care of your needs and a little bit more that wealth has no correlation with happiness.
Click to expand...

Actually we probably agree here. "Wealth" in my case is saving up for a retirement someday with no children to back-stop us or even invite us into their home, trying to avoid awful Medicare/Medicaid retirement homes in retirement, having every loan paid off, and no plans to actually see a dime of Social Security...

...while still keeping enough free cash-flow going... to be an aircraft owner during both my "earning" and retirement years. :)

I consider THAT... "wealthy". Anything beyond that is just gravy. :)

So... that "little more" has to also include investments for the future that's coming for all of us...

If I have to dump the airplane or flying to make sure the retirement nest is feathered, then that's "Just gettin' by", and not real livin'! :D

Most of those kids starting off with $250K in student loans (again, don't forget the interest payments... they've started a backwards trend in Net Worth before they've even earned a penny) ... need to plan for at least one furlough and drop in salary in their lifetimes as airline pilots, and will only be able to retire comfortably at that level you described... needs met, a little more... if they are VERY frugal in their late 20s and early 30s and invest.

Compound interest won't be helping them nearly as much after their 20s and early 30s. Compound interest can completely kick "education's" butt if you start early enough and keep adding.

And I mean a real plan... not just a "let's hope it'll all work out", kum-bah-yah attitude toward how to live in retirement... show me the spreadsheet. Plans with real numbers can always change... A lack of a plan is just a lack of a plan.

The fact that "educators" show kids how to do the math, but don't show them how to apply it to their own finances, is completely appalling to me.

The secondary fact that educators can say with a straight face that a $250K bill with interest is an "investment in your future" right after teaching a math class, makes me want to hurl. Seriously. No honor in selling the next generation down the river.

Especially needed are more discussions about the effect of compound interest... as it relates to the compounding frequency... for our young people.

Credit cards... MONTHLY compounding... 28%+ interest (more for these kids with no credit history and little income)...

Credit cards are some of the most evil financial tools on Earth. If the card swiper at the store were to calculate the total price of the purchase at the cardholder's interest rate, if they continued paying for the item at the minimum payment, people would run screaming away.

Taxes too. A "1%" increase in annual taxes sure doesn't sound all that bad does it? How about if we calculate the effect of that 1% on lifetime earnings. Not so good then, is it? Same effect, just wage-slaves to a different master.

My favorite "weird things to make note of" in finance, is that Federally backed student loans are not collectible in full at death.
 
nddons said:
She has, and while it won't be an easy or really profitable profession, she does see opportunities for large animal vets. She worked for a large animal vet in a small Illinois town two years ago, and feels that large animal is her calling, primarily food animal vs. equine. It also fits in Wisconsin with such a large dairy industry.

I heard last summer that there are over 500 rural counties in the US that have no large animal vet. We have friends who raise hogs and sheep in El Paso, IL, and their vet comes from another county.

Here's some interesting information for what it's worth: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm
Click to expand...


A lot of that is because the margins in ranching are so low you can't afford a vet for your livestock. If you can't cure them yourself with what you buy at the feed store, you're financially better off just replacing the animal or absorbing the loss. How much sense does it make to pay a $300 vet bill on an animal that will make you a $50 profit if you're lucky?
 
So you're aware of where vets put their arms on a regular basis?

Everskyward said:
No offense to dentists here but you couldn't pay me enough to look in people's mouths all day, however, being a vet is one thing I considered doing (briefly) when I was younger. Diff'rent strokes I guess. :dunno:
Click to expand...
 
denverpilot said:
...And I mean a real plan... not just a "let's hope it'll all work out", kum-bah-yah attitude toward how to live in retirement... show me the spreadsheet. Plans with real numbers can always change... A lack of a plan is just a lack of a plan.....
Click to expand...
Of COURSE it's going to work out. Inflation so favors the gub'mnt with our current tax system, and so favors unlimited National Debt, that the kum-bah-yah-ers are just planning on $1 being 0.10 in true value ten years from now....and you can count on it.

They printed 600B as "quantitative easing" and what happend to the real currency (1 bbl of oil)? It went from $60 to $90 the next week.
 
Last edited:
bbchien said:
I do have to say that our foreign student population has some very very top notch students therein. Our domestic population, though...OMG.
Click to expand...

Bruce, I've put two (and am putting one more) through school, and I'll tell you we've got plenty of bright and highly motivated types; home-grown, well-prepared, and smart. There's no shortage at all.

Very few of these are planning on being doctors, though. :eek:
 
wabower said:
So you're aware of where vets put their arms on a regular basis?
Click to expand...
For whatever reason that doesn't bother me at all. An animal is different than a human. I wouldn't mind looking in a cow's mouth.... or the other end.
 
Everskyward said:
For whatever reason that doesn't bother me at all. An animal is different than a human. I wouldn't mind looking in a cow's mouth.... or the other end.
Click to expand...

My daughter feels the same way. She is completely grossed out by the idea of human medicine, but had no problem cleaning maggots off of an open wound on a steer or going shoulder deep on a pregnant cow. They're sick people.
 
wabower said:
So you're aware of where vets put their arms on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

You don't keep one of these in the back of the 170 just in case?

VC126930l.jpg


:wink2:
 
denverpilot said:
Students at ERAU with $250K in student loans are not out of the ordinary. Any school can afford to expand if people are crazy enough to pay those prices to have ERAU stamped on a sheepskin just hoping to garner those very few $25K/year FO slots that are hard enough to come by that being able to "ring-knock" with other ERAU (or... let's just face it... UND) students in the hiring department, makes all the difference between hired and not hired.
Click to expand...

I don't think I could recommend that someone go to ERAU, in order to study aviation, and I graduated from the place this past fall. Its just too darn expensive. Yes, you can save some money by doing flying somewhere else and getting the academics there, but even still, it's expensive. If they wanted to go for engineering or something of that nature, sure, take a look at it.

I'm lucky enough that I only have about a year's worth of pay in loans to pay off. I got a lot of support from my family and then got into an excellent flying job that pays very well for entry level pilots (with little to no expenses). I know tons of people who are stuck doing something for peanuts and massive loan payments to cover.
 
The proposal to close the aviation program failed passage last night

The Urbana-Champaign Senate voted Monday afternoon against the proposal to close the Institute and eliminate the Bachelor of Science in Aviation Human Factors. The vote, 57-54, stood against the Educational Policy Committee’s formal recommendation to shut down the Institute.
However, Interim Chancellor Robert Easter and Interim Provost Richard Wheeler could still bring this proposal up to the Board of Trustees at its June 9 meeting in Chicago.
Click to expand...
http://www.dailyillini.com/index.php/article/2011/04/proposal_to_close_aviation_fails_to_pass
 
ScottM said:
The proposal to close the aviation program failed passage last night

http://www.dailyillini.com/index.php/article/2011/04/proposal_to_close_aviation_fails_to_pass
Click to expand...
Yeah!

What's with all these interim people there, anyway?

However, Interim Chancellor Robert Easter and Interim Provost Richard Wheeler could still bring this proposal up to the Board of Trustees at its June 9 meeting in Chicago.
Tom Emanuel, interim director of Aviation, said he expects Easter and Wheeler to take the proposal to the board, and thus, Aviation is still at risk of closure.
Click to expand...
 
Two random comments:

1. Anecdotally, the inspiration of Bruck Artwick was a similar program written by Brand Fortner for the PLATO system. If you were at UofI during the 70s or 80s you may remember PLATO...

2. I had a buddy who used to fly from Chicago (Clow?) with his golf clubs in the back, park, grab his clubs and jump the fence onto the adjacent Blue and Orange golf course, play in, pay his green fee, play out until he reached his starting point, jump back over and fly home.
 
The proposal to close the Institute of Aviation will not resurface at the Board of Trustees meeting in Chicago on Thursday.
The board would have discussed the proposal under new business if Interim Chancellor Robert Easter and Interim Provost Richard Wheeler had decided to present it before the trustees.
Cole Goldenberg, Aviation student senator, said he has spoken with Easter, and Easter has confirmed that it would not appear on the agenda.
However, it is still possible that the proposal could be brought up to the board at a future meeting.
Click to expand...


Safe for a little while longer.



http://www.dailyillini.com/index.php/article/2011/06/two_vice_presidents_to_be_appointed
 
The end is nigh

http://www.dailyillini.com/index.php/article/2011/07/trustees_set_to_make_final_decision_on_aviation

Thursday’s meeting for the Board of Trustees could close the Institute of Aviation.
The vote on the agenda item, sponsored by interim Chancellor Robert Easter and President Michael Hogan, to close the Institute will probably be the final analysis of the issue, trustee Karen Hasara said.
Some controversy, however, surrounds when the item was added to the agenda. While most of the agenda was finalized and released Thursday, the item to close the Institute was added Friday.
Click to expand...


The issue is basically a cost one. The cost per student is the highest in the aviation department and with declining enrollments in the program the university wants to close a money loser. The other side of the coin is that their human factors graduate programs are some of the best and are well funded. Those programs have been or are being moved out of the aviation program.
 
They shut it down

The University Board of Trustees voted 6-2 to pass a resolution closing the Institute of Aviation. The three student trustees, who each receive an advisory vote, all voted to keep the Institute open.
Interim Chancellor Robert Easter said after the meeting that he supports a plan to transfer the Institute to a different college, and the University has already had conversations with community colleges, like Champaign’s Parkland College, about making the switch.
“Ideally, the Institute will be able to continue to have some form of flight training available to students, although maybe through a very different program,” he said.
Under the proposal, the Institute will be kept open until the end of the 2013-14 academic year.
Click to expand...
http://www.dailyillini.com/index.php/article/2011/07/ui_board_of_trustees_shuts_down_aviation

The university also owns the airport. Without any aviation program one has to wonder what interest they would have in keeping that property. KCMI may be headed for a housing track in the future.
 
i'd be really surprised if (when) the university no longer wants to own the airport the city or other local governments don't step in. There is a lot of non college aviation going on there and it is the only major airport for a pretty large community.
 
tonycondon said:
There is a lot of non college aviation going on there and it is the only major airport for a pretty large community.
Click to expand...
I would not call it 'a lot' but definitely some. There is the commercial air terminal, but there is an airport proposal for a 3rd Chicago airport at Peotone that is well past planning. If that actually happens commercial subsidized air travel from KCMI will go bust because a short 1.5 hour drive from the city will be cheaper hub originated airfare. There already is good train and bus transport between Champaign and Chicago that eats into airline travel from the city. With that gone KCMI will be a large mostly unused class C airport.

I think that is why the university is also looking at getting one of the community colleges involved in the airport.

BTW Jimmy John's keeps their corporate jet at KCMI.

My comment was just that, a comment. I have no idea what the future for KCMI is. But I know from flying in and out of there a lot that most of the traffic was U of I school planes. Without that it can be very lonely there.
 
i used to fly there every other month or so in a 182RG, always seemed like there was one or two jets on the ramp at flight star. without the college program (if it doesn't go to a community college) they probably won't need the tower or class C anymore. The college big wigs will still need a place to base their flight department though :)
 
tonycondon said:
i used to fly there every other month or so in a 182RG, always seemed like there was one or two jets on the ramp at flight star. without the college program (if it doesn't go to a community college) they probably won't need the tower or class C anymore. The college big wigs will still need a place to base their flight department though :)
Click to expand...
Definately gotta have a place for the college president to fly in and out of. As well as the football team! :D:D

But I think that Class C will be a memory. My guess is that a year or two after the closure and no pick up by a community college, the airspace becomes class D.
 
Putting the Aviation program to a 2 year school is setting the kids up for long term failure.
 
ScottM said:
Even if they have, those commitments expire. Last I heard AIP is not a in perpetuity commitment. Hence the "in the future" comment.
Click to expand...

True enough - nothing is "forever."
 
tonycondon said:
why do you say that?
Click to expand...

The good jobs all require a 4 year degree. If the program has them ready to go in 2 years, they'll start their trip down the rabbit hole at a regional and they won't finish the next 2 years of school because they won't be able to afford the time or money.
 
when i went through a 2 year aviation program i was able to get all the same ratings in less than half the time and spend the rest of my college career working and getting paid instead of paying for long drawn out training. no regionals were hiring pilots with a wet commercial multi anyway, and even when they do dip that low it doesn't last long. Everyones plan was to get the ratings done and build time while finishing their 4 year degree.

not to mention that not only did it take half the time but cost about half as much too. But i guess i was at the "disadvantage" of not being able to say I graduated from Riddle.
 
tonycondon said:
when i went through a 2 year aviation program i was able to get all the same ratings in less than half the time and spend the rest of my college career working and getting paid instead of paying for long drawn out training. no regionals were hiring pilots with a wet commercial multi anyway, and even when they do dip that low it doesn't last long. Everyones plan was to get the ratings done and build time while finishing their 4 year degree.

not to mention that not only did it take half the time but cost about half as much too. But i guess i was at the "disadvantage" of not being able to say I graduated from Riddle.
Click to expand...
+1. It's amazing how "long and drawn out" the training is at some of the 4 year programs.
 
tonycondon said:
when i went through a 2 year aviation program i was able to get all the same ratings in less than half the time and spend the rest of my college career working and getting paid instead of paying for long drawn out training. no regionals were hiring pilots with a wet commercial multi anyway, and even when they do dip that low it doesn't last long. Everyones plan was to get the ratings done and build time while finishing their 4 year degree.

not to mention that not only did it take half the time but cost about half as much too. But i guess i was at the "disadvantage" of not being able to say I graduated from Riddle.
Click to expand...


I wasn't comparing to Riddle, more like UND. I guess you're right, they aren't going to get hired anyway so they'll hopefully stay in school.
 
there were several people from my school who went to UND and worked there as CFI's while they finished up their degree.
 
tonycondon said:
when i went through a 2 year aviation program i was able to get all the same ratings in less than half the time and spend the rest of my college career working and getting paid instead of paying for long drawn out training. no regionals were hiring pilots with a wet commercial multi anyway, and even when they do dip that low it doesn't last long. Everyones plan was to get the ratings done and build time while finishing their 4 year degree.

not to mention that not only did it take half the time but cost about half as much too. But i guess i was at the "disadvantage" of not being able to say I graduated from Riddle.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm the better part of the way through my commercial. Started the program in January because I did my private back home with my dad so it's going to be a 1.5 year program for me. People tell me Riddle makes some crappy pilots anyway. Something about no "bad weather" flying days down there.
 
Arbiter419 said:
This is exactly what I'm doing right now. I'm the better part of the way through my commercial. Started the program in January because I did my private back home with my dad so it's going to be a 1.5 year program for me. People tell me Riddle makes some crappy pilots anyway. Something about no "bad weather" flying days down there.
Click to expand...

As in they don't allow the students to go up in it? Because there is plenty of bad, even dangerous weather here in Florida. The other day coming up on Cape Canaveral Orlando told me "Ignore all airspace restrictions, cleared into the B as required, heading and altitude at your discretion, just find your best route through there. And that's common for half the year is to have afternoon weather like that.

The only thing that's wrong with Riddle outside the absolute dearth of females is they are overpriced for what you get. They charge a hefty premium for perpetuating the belief that graduating from Riddle will make a meaningful difference in your career path over going to any other university and doing equivalent pt 61 training. In other words, the Riddle name is not really worth the premium you pay for it in the pilot arena. Outside of the aviation arena, the Riddle name doesn't buy you an advantage either. So, as a recap, no chicks, over priced, no "network" advantage over any other school.
 
Last edited:
i think most of the big schools insurance policies preclude flying in real weather. i know that when i was training i talked to some UND students. actual IFR and grass runways were verboten.
 
tonycondon said:
i think most of the big schools insurance policies preclude flying in real weather. i know that when i was training i talked to some UND students. actual IFR and grass runways were verboten.
Click to expand...
If that is true, that is just insane...CFII's without actual experience, training more CFII's to instruct without actual experience, etc. etc. Pilot inbreeding...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top