United CEO says it's passenger's fault regarding seat pitch

[strangebird]

Delta is a solid product and I travel with them whenever realistically possible. Not just comfortable but everyone I've dealt with, from gate agent to flight attendant to telephone customer service has been a pleasure and made me feel like I'm valued. When we got our puppy we flew back cross country with him in the cabin and they were extremely accommodating. Family and friends have all said the same.

UAL was a complete and utter disaster each time I've taken them. Not only are they unfriendly, I found the whole experience to be hostile. Apologies to anyone reading this who works there, that's not my intent to offend, just the experience I've had.

And when things go south (delays, etc) DL has gone above and beyond in making it right and keeping folks comfortable.

Having said that.. as long as the majority of VFR (visiting friends and relatives) travellers go to Orbitz and buy the cheapest ticket then he is not wrong.

After having been a 25 year loyal Airtran customer who overall was pretty good, with the SWA buyout it is total differerent experience, the passengers are different, I see fewer business travelers, the way you board is insane and there is only three seats with any leg room in the exit row, flight attendants not that customer friendly, and fewer non stops out of Atlana,

I recently started taking Delta and found that fares are not always higher and in fact lower than SWA in many cases, the crew is great and the cleanliness of the cabin good, unlike SWA where you had no clue what you were sitting in.

SWA has us all convinced they are the low cost carrier, I look at SWA and the others like public transportation with the masses, the one thing SWA has the no fee and refund if you change or cancel which has saved me a few times.

SWA has some 737-800's that have the new seats that are like sitting on a 2X6 they are terrible , yet another 800 had more comfy seats, on long trips it is Delta for me now.

On Delta I can up grade if i want to pay a few buck more to the comfort class, nice seats and legroom, each has it pluses and minuses.

 

[Tantalum]

SWA has us all convinced they are the low cost carrier

I recently took SWA for the first time after booking a Vegas trip last minute (wind forecast was a tad on the high end in the Vegas area and I didn't want/need to subject my wife to another bumpy ride over mountains).. not sure what I was expecting, but after hearing so many positive things from so many loyal customers, and them being the perceived industry standard as them being "THE" low cost carrier I wasn't really impressed at all. The boarding process seemed wonky (had a low number in the B group and still didn't get a good seat at all), the overhead bin space was tiny, and plane was in "okay" shape but definitely not as clean as DL, there was no IFE, and while the attendants were nice enough I didn't understand the logic behind the drink service where they take individual orders and walk up and down the aisles for an hour (and which resulted in my Coke being forgotten). So I probably wouldn't take them again to be honest

the crew is great and the cleanliness of the cabin good

Yup, as @Ryanb said Delta sets the industry standard. Delays and cancellations will happen, but there's a definite perception to me that DL cares the most about their customer base. Basic economy is actually not terrible and the upgrade process to Comfort Plus is not that much more money and definitely is a big upgrade in service. The IFE is also great, even the handful of planes they have left without TVs in the seats the WiFi has a great selection of free movies, shows, etc. The loyalty program I have found as well makes it pretty easy to move up in status, especially if you have their Amex card

 

[jordane93]

I recently took SWA for the first time after booking a Vegas trip last minute (wind forecast was a tad on the high end in the Vegas area and I didn't want/need to subject my wife to another bumpy ride over mountains).. not sure what I was expecting, but after hearing so many positive things from so many loyal customers, and them being the perceived industry standard as them being "THE" low cost carrier I wasn't really impressed at all. The boarding process seemed wonky (had a low number in the B group and still didn't get a good seat at all), the overhead bin space was tiny, and plane was in "okay" shape but definitely not as clean as DL, there was no IFE, and while the attendants were nice enough I didn't understand the logic behind the drink service where they take individual orders and walk up and down the aisles for an hour (and which resulted in my Coke being forgotten). So I probably wouldn't take them again to be honest


Yup, as @Ryanb said Delta sets the industry standard. Delays and cancellations will happen, but there's a definite perception to me that DL cares the most about their customer base. Basic economy is actually not terrible and the upgrade process to Comfort Plus is not that much more money and definitely is a big upgrade in service. The IFE is also great, even the handful of planes they have left without TVs in the seats the WiFi has a great selection of free movies, shows, etc. The loyalty program I have found as well makes it pretty easy to move up in status, especially if you have their Amex card

Richard Anderson definitely put in some work at Delta. Hopefully Ed keeps up the good work.

 

[RyanB]

I recently took SWA for the first time after booking a Vegas trip last minute (wind forecast was a tad on the high end in the Vegas area and I didn't want/need to subject my wife to another bumpy ride over mountains).. not sure what I was expecting, but after hearing so many positive things from so many loyal customers, and them being the perceived industry standard as them being "THE" low cost carrier I wasn't really impressed at all. The boarding process seemed wonky (had a low number in the B group and still didn't get a good seat at all), the overhead bin space was tiny, and plane was in "okay" shape but definitely not as clean as DL, there was no IFE, and while the attendants were nice enough I didn't understand the logic behind the drink service where they take individual orders and walk up and down the aisles for an hour (and which resulted in my Coke being forgotten). So I probably wouldn't take them again to be honest


Yup, as @Ryanb said Delta sets the industry standard. Delays and cancellations will happen, but there's a definite perception to me that DL cares the most about their customer base. Basic economy is actually not terrible and the upgrade process to Comfort Plus is not that much more money and definitely is a big upgrade in service. The IFE is also great, even the handful of planes they have left without TVs in the seats the WiFi has a great selection of free movies, shows, etc. The loyalty program I have found as well makes it pretty easy to move up in status, especially if you have their Amex card

I've had mostly positive experiences with SWA. The only thing I don't like is the open seating arrangements. It's annoying and makes the boarding process sluggish. If they would quit doing that, I'd like them a whole lot better.

 

[Tantalum]

Richard Anderson definitely put in some work at Delta.

For sure. His experience at NW I am sure also helped keep employee moral relatively good throughout the NW/DL merger. Ed seems to have kept up that "we value our employees, and in turn we value our customers." The little video they play has a very good balance of that, and I have asked flight attendants before and it's not actors in their videos, their real employees.

Everything starts at the top... even a massive company like Google/Apple/Tesla/Amazon/Microsoft all embody to some degree their CEOs vision of the company and even their personality, right down to the bottom person on the totem pole. If employees are happy and feel valued that generally translates into good customer service. The "us vs you" hostility I've personally come across many times at UA I believe stemmed from an unhappy workforce, largely post merger.

 

[deonb]

The free market is demanding one thing and one thing only: Price.

Except it doesn't. The free market demands value. If it only demanded price you'd see a lot of Nissan Versa's on the road. Instead what do you see? You see F150's. It costs twice as much but its twice as useful.

Believe me if airlines offered seats with 41% more pitch and 41% more width for twice the price (1.41 x 1.41 = 2), people would be all over that. Instead what they offer in most first classes is something like 30% more pitch and 2% more width for 3 times the price. And that's not a good deal.

 

[Tantalum]

Except it doesn't. The free market demands value. If it only demanded price you'd see a lot of Nissan Versa's on the road.

I agree with you on principle. BUT, with airlines the individual ticket pricing generally has very little correlation to value. Prices will depend on route, density, time of day, etc. So while people can definitely see and perceive a price AND value difference between a Versa, Altima, and F150 they don't see that with the airlines... a plane ticket from BOS to LGA on JBU might cost more than a ticket on DAL from SAN to nowhere, Montana

I think that's why unless people have loyalty to a brand (due to reasons X, Y, Z) they'll just buy the cheapest ticket... because in their experience "that-one-time-I-spent-more-money-I-didn't-get-a-better-product"

 

[Goofy]

I've had mostly positive experiences with SWA. The only thing I don't like is the open seating arrangements. It's annoying and makes the boarding process sluggish. If they would quit doing that, I'd like them a whole lot better.

One of the best things about SW! Check in early and you always have an opportunity to get a window or aisle near the front. Trying to plan a couple trips right now on AA and naturally the best prices are middle seats only....

 

[Cap'n Jack]

All of the things you mention are coming as the technology advances. New capabilities are constantly being added both in the customer-facing technology and the tools that we use behind the scenes.

Again, the airline employee isn't listening to the customer! The technology is there- the capabilities are there- it is already in the app- we agree about that!
Why isn't that technology being given to the line staff so they could be pro-active? Why do I need to threaten to cancel a trip for a refund so they could re-route me via another city without weather problems to get to the same place?

Here's another reason to roll out the technology to the line staff-My trips take me on UAL most of the time, I've only flown Delta twice in the past several years. So I have the UAL app on my phone, but not the Delta app. Likewise, most of the occasional flyers won't have the app either. Most of probably don't install the app from our local super-market we visit weekly.

 

[RyanB]

One of the best things about SW! Check in early and you always have an opportunity to get a window or aisle near the front. Trying to plan a couple trips right now on AA and naturally the best prices are middle seats only....

Or pick your seat during the reservation process and guarantee yourself a window seat. That's how Delta does it and the price remains the same for any window or aisle seat in the economy cabin.

 

[Tantalum]

One of the best things about SW! Check in early and you always have an opportunity to get a window or aisle near the front. Trying to plan a couple trips right now on AA

The open seating, or sort of assigned seating (like SWA) doesn't seem superior to me than just assigning the seat at ticket purchase... I think instead it's a way to charge a bit of a premium for some early board A group nonsense. Flying alone the seating in SWA may not be bad, and I'm sure the group thing you get used to, but going with a family that suddenly becomes much more difficult and I didn't find it to be a superior (IE, faster and more convenient to passenger) way to board a plane

You mentioned AA, that is another airline I avoid, I haven't flown them in years (full disclosure) but the last few times I did the planes were remarkably beat up and abused, the service was very ho-hum, and when things went south (baggage issues, delays, cancellations, etc.) there wasn't much they did in the way of helping the customer or "trying to make things right"

The Wall Street Journal puts out a pretty good airline ranking scorecard each year. I haven't seen 2016's yet but otherwise find these to be very accurate. Delta consistently ranks in the top 3 overall with Alaska and Virgin. UA and AA consistently rank in the bottom 3 spots

Interestingly enough SWA is somewhere in the middle, part of their perception as "the low cost carrier" probably comes from their marketing and advertising. Might be my geographic location but I only ever see SWA running TV ads

 

[Larry in TN]

there was no IFE

Southwest has IFE. It streams to your device (phone, tablet, or laptop) via the airplane's wifi. Several dozen live DirecTV channels for free and on-demand movies for a fee.

Again, the airline employee isn't listening to the customer!

This airline employee, over the past seven or eight years, has been has A-List status on Southwest, Platinum Medalian status on Delta, and Premier Platinum status on United. These days I flew at least twice a week as a non-rev. I'm very familiar with the product of those three airlines in particular and the US airline industry in general.

The technology is there- the capabilities are there- it is already in the app- we agree about that!

The technology isn't there yet. The capabilities are constantly expanding.

Why isn't that technology being given to the line staff so they could be pro-active?

They are regularly adding such new technology. You say you fly on UAL. About a year ago UAL gave each FA the iPhone-based Lynk device. That device, which is connected while in flight via the wifi, gives the FAs a number of new capabilities to help the passengers that didn't exist before. Mobile devices are currently being deployed to mechanics, ramp workers, and agents so that they can interact with the IT systems where they are doing their jobs instead of being tied to a computer terminal. This allows a mechanic to find/order parts quicker, access maintenance procedures quickly, then finish "the paperwork" that must document the work he has done on the airplane and will get the repaired airplane pushed and on its way sooner. It allows the ramp workers to have better information about the baggage that needs to be loaded to reduce bag mishandling and prevent issues where cargo compartments are loaded out of limits which would generate delays. It allows customer service agents to address customer's issues wherever they are instead of requiring passengers to go to an agent at a terminal. Paper maintenance logbooks have been eliminated on most fleets and are being eliminated on the remaining fleets. This gives the pilots access to their aircraft's maintenance status and history prior to arriving at the airplane and allows a repaired airplane to depart faster. All of this has happened/is happening in the last year.

Why do I need to threaten to cancel a trip for a refund so they could re-route me via another city without weather problems to get to the same place?

You shouldn't. Such re-accommodations are routine.

 

[Tantalum]

Southwest has IFE. It streams to your device (phone, tablet, or laptop) via the airplane's wifi. Several dozen live DirecTV channels for free and on-demand movies for a fee.

I used it for the short flight to LAS, but DL doesn't charge a fee to watch their on demand stuff. I have nothing against SWA, we left on time and landed early and I got to my destination safely.. so the experience was fine. But, it certainly felt more like bus riding than airline traveling. I didn't really understand what all the hype was about to be frank, JBU seems like a superior low cost carrier and really as far as plane condition and overall comfort there was no comparison to DAL. But that's just one man's observation

 

[Goofy]

Or pick your seat during the reservation process and guarantee yourself a window seat. That's how Delta does it and the price remains the same for any window or aisle seat in the economy cabin.

IF they are available. In SW with that Boarding A "nonsense" they are always available.

 

[deonb]

I agree with you on principle. BUT, with airlines the individual ticket pricing generally has very little correlation to value. Prices will depend on route, density, time of day, etc. So while people can definitely see and perceive a price AND value difference between a Versa, Altima, and F150 they don't see that with the airlines... a plane ticket from BOS to LGA on JBU might cost more than a ticket on DAL from SAN to nowhere, Montana

I think that's why unless people have loyalty to a brand (due to reasons X, Y, Z) they'll just buy the cheapest ticket... because in their experience "that-one-time-I-spent-more-money-I-didn't-get-a-better-product"

I agree with that. But I think the airlines aren't doing enough of a job to market the difference.

Even if you've never been in any of the models, most people can describe the difference between a Versa, a F150 and a BMW, just based on marketing. I highly doubt most people can describe the difference between JetBlue and Spirit. Also, the actual difference isn't big enough that you can even tell from a picture. Instead, airline marketing is virtually never based on the equipment that they fly, and even less about the seats you're going to be spending 6 hours in. It focuses on stuff that makes no material impact to your journey.

Seats that are twice as big also don't make the tickets cost twice as much. It would cost maybe 50% more to provide. Fuel & taxes are constant, number of FA's require are halved etc. It's hard to argue that the market won't go for that, because AFAIK it has never been tried before. I know all-business-class Airlines don't do as well, but those are 3x prices.

I'd like to see an airline run an ad like this where they just put pictures like this side-by-side with a caption saying "twice as much space for not that much more". THEN let's see if customers still "vote" that they only want to be offered the cheapest option. (PS: Picture on right is Premium Economy on Air New Zealand.)

 

[Tantalum]

In SW with that Boarding A "nonsense" they are always available.

Is it guaranteed, or just available? Not meant to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious. Do they only give out enough A group priorities to ensure those folks can all get window or aisle?

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Haven't read any comments, but just based on the article -

I do not care who they punch and drag off their flights, but I will not fly United again until they increase legroom space. It does not matter to me if it's the cheapest flight listed on Kayak or where ever, I'll buy my seat with a carrier like JetBlue instead. I flew United twice in April and was so horribly uncomfortable... I actually had bruises on my right knee from being so cramped after the second flight.

I'm more than happy to pay a bit extra for extra space - but I shouldn't have to buy a 1st Class/Business class seat to not feel like a sardine.

 

[Tantalum]

I flew United twice in April and was so horribly uncomfortable...

Seems like most of us (at least those posting here) pretty much have terrible experiences with UA due to a cornucopia of reasons. Wondering if anyone would actually care to sing their praises, or have any positive stories to share? I have positive stories to share from JBU and DAL (more than just one for each too!) but can't say that for AA or UAL

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

And what's up with that 2-4-2 seating in United business class, with 4 seats in the middle?

8 across sleeping nose-to-nose with the big dude next to me did not seem worth the multi thousand $$ price premium over 9 across in economy.

And half the seats are rear facing.

 

[jordane93]

And what's up with that 2-4-2 seating in United business class, with 4 seats in the middle?

8 across sleeping nose-to-nose with the big dude next to me did not seem worth the multi thousand $$ price premium over 9 across in economy.

And half the seats are rear facing.

That seems silly. On all of the Delta's wide bodies, they offer direct aisle seating in every seat in First Class (now called Delta One I think).

 

[jordane93]

Seems like most of us (at least those posting here) pretty much have terrible experiences with UA due to a cornucopia of reasons. Wondering if anyone would actually care to sing their praises, or have any positive stories to share? I have positive stories to share from JBU and DAL (more than just one for each too!) but can't say that for AA or UAL

I've jumpseated on them a few times and they have always been good to me. I haven't traveled on anyone besides Northwest and Delta. Very occasionally on Alaska and American but its been years since I've traveled on them.

 

[Everskyward]

Is it guaranteed, or just available? Not meant to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious. Do they only give out enough A group priorities to ensure those folks can all get window or aisle?

I have never not gotten a window or aisle even when boarding towards the end of the B group. I rarely buy the Early Bird boarding even though it's only $12.50/leg. Granted, it would be different when traveling with a group or family, but I almost always travel alone. The recent exception was when I traveled with a couple who got a free seat assignment because one of them is handicapped. I had to pay something like $60 to sit next to them because I am not immediate family. That was on British Airways.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

That seems silly. On all of the Delta's wide bodies, they offer direct aisle seating in every seat in First Class (now called Delta One I think).

Silly is a mild word to describe this. Even Business Class is now approaching Greyhound Class.

 

[RyanB]

IF they are available. In SW with that Boarding A "nonsense" they are always available.

If there's no seats available, then that flight option won't appear as one to choose from. I like to be able to choose my seat ahead of time and know exactly where I'll be sitting.

 

[RyanB]

Is it guaranteed, or just available? Not meant to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious. Do they only give out enough A group priorities to ensure those folks can all get window or aisle?

It's basically selected on who checks in first. SWA designates a select number of passengers to fill groups A,B and C. Once one boarding zone fills, the next passenger who checks in will fall into the next group and so on.

 

[Tantalum]

It's basically selected on who checks in first.

Thanks, so that makes some sense, and makes sense why "early bird checkin" would be desired. But, is there also no reward for loyalty?

 

[RyanB]

Thanks, so that makes some sense, and makes sense why "early bird checkin" would be desired. But, is there also no reward for loyalty?

I'm sure they have some type of frequent flier program, but if I recall correctly, there is no "first class" seating with SWA. Basically a one size fits all.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm sure they have some type of frequent flier program, but if I recall correctly, there is no "first class" seating with SWA. Basically a one size fits all.

There is a frequent flyer program that gets you a slot in the beginning of the A group. But all the seats are the same size with the exception of the exit row. There is no first class or economy.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Thanks, so that makes some sense, and makes sense why "early bird checkin" would be desired. But, is there also no reward for loyalty?

Confession - I don't pay attention to what "group" I'm in... I just start boarding once they are done with military, people w/kids and business class. Never once been stopped or told I can't board.

 

[RalphInCA]

This. Some people showed up in sweats for the business jet flights. Also, in a group of business people, the highest ranking, so to speak, often was dressed the most casually.

Also remember we are in the "IT age". Some of the most highly compensated, smartest, and worst dressed business people I've ever met are information technology people.

 

[RyanB]

There is a frequent flyer program that gets you a slot in the beginning of the A group. But all the seats are the same size with the exception of the exit row. There is no first class or economy.

IOW SWA isn't the best airline to be a frequent flier member of.

 

[mscard88]

Richard Anderson definitely put in some work at Delta. Hopefully Ed keeps up the good work.

And in his pockets! Ed already has too. Just saying....

 

[Everskyward]

IOW SWA isn't the best airline to be a frequent flier member of.

Maybe not, but I'm not someone who's ever interested in upgrading my seat. I also prefer their boarding method and lack of change fees.

 

[RyanB]

Maybe not, but I'm not someone who's ever interested in upgrading my seat. I also prefer their boarding method and lack of change fees.

Yeah I'm not either, I've never paid any extra for first class or other on-board amenities. I just like knowing where I'll be sitting and having the option to pick the seat ahead of time. It really becomes frustrating when traveling with friends and family, as having a row of seats for each of us is not always possible.

 

[Goofy]

Confession - I don't pay attention to what "group" I'm in... I just start boarding once they are done with military, people w/kids and business class. Never once been stopped or told I can't board.

Amazing the disgusting behavior some people are proud of....

 

[jordane93]

Confession - I don't pay attention to what "group" I'm in... I just start boarding once they are done with military, people w/kids and business class. Never once been stopped or told I can't board.

Which airlines let you board out of priority? I guess you had some pretty nice gate agents!

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Southwest has IFE. It streams to your device (phone, tablet, or laptop) via the airplane's wifi. Several dozen live DirecTV channels for free and on-demand movies for a fee.


This airline employee, over the past seven or eight years, has been has A-List status on Southwest, Platinum Medalian status on Delta, and Premier Platinum status on United. These days I flew at least twice a week as a non-rev. I'm very familiar with the product of those three airlines in particular and the US airline industry in general.


The technology isn't there yet. The capabilities are constantly expanding.

"This airline employee" still isn't listening! I really don't care if you are A-listed or have status on anything- that only means that the airlines take care of you better.
The technology exists! You said so earlier in the thread! It is the same technology that allows me to use an app to take an alternate flight. But the gate agents should have this technology too. They don't! Look at the bolded text below...

They are regularly adding such new technology. You say you fly on UAL. About a year ago UAL gave each FA the iPhone-based Lynk device. That device, which is connected while in flight via the wifi, gives the FAs a number of new capabilities to help the passengers that didn't exist before. Mobile devices are currently being deployed to mechanics, ramp workers, and agents so that they can interact with the IT systems where they are doing their jobs instead of being tied to a computer terminal. This allows a mechanic to find/order parts quicker, access maintenance procedures quickly, then finish "the paperwork" that must document the work he has done on the airplane and will get the repaired airplane pushed and on its way sooner. It allows the ramp workers to have better information about the baggage that needs to be loaded to reduce bag mishandling and prevent issues where cargo compartments are loaded out of limits which would generate delays.

And how about the UAL flagged regional jets operated under "United Express"? I know they are separate airlines, but from a customer point-of-view, they are all United Airlines. A lot of these planes still don't have wifi, based on recent experience, roughly half of them do not. All of those people mentioned above? They work for the regional partner under the "united express" flag. Not for United Airlines. Some of those regional airlines serve both Delta and United.

It allows customer service agents to address customer's issues wherever they are instead of requiring passengers to go to an agent at a terminal. Paper maintenance logbooks have been eliminated on most fleets and are being eliminated on the remaining fleets. This gives the pilots access to their aircraft's maintenance status and history prior to arriving at the airplane and allows a repaired airplane to depart faster. All of this has happened/is happening in the last year.

The bolded part is the technology that is claimed to not exist yet (your statement, quoted above). Why aren't they using it? Better yet, start the machinery for re-routing as soon as the delay is known.

You shouldn't. Such re-accommodations are routine.

Again, "this airline employee" isn't listening! If it were routine, I wouldn't be complaining about it. The trip to KSFO was one instance, I had another earlier in the year going to KPHL and wound up in KEWR to make my meeting. Maybe such re-accommodations are routine for A-list Medallion Premier Platinum customers. But they aren't for someone who travels a lot, but doesn't quite reached those exalted levels. I agree the technology is getting better. But as someone mentioned earlier in the thread, they need to look at their business rules and determine if they could be more flexible. I don't mind calling to get an itinerary changed beyond what the server's programming currently allows, or going to a gate agent or the customer service agent listed in bold above, and and asking them to make the change. However, they don't have the authority to do so! No amount of technology will help unless the airlines allow their employees to use the technology.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Which airlines let you board out of priority? I guess you had some pretty nice gate agents!

I've flown JetBlue, American and United over the last year and none seem to care. If they don't care, why should I? If the gate agents want me to wait, they'd stop me and tell me to. Honestly, I had no idea people were actually paying more money to board earlier. That's crazy. Thought it was just randomly determined which group you get.

 

[SkyDog58]

Confession - I don't pay attention to what "group" I'm in... I just start boarding once they are done with military, people w/kids and business class. Never once been stopped or told I can't board.

It's that damn VE popping up again.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Amazing the disgusting behavior some people are proud of....

Never claimed to be proud of anything. Just saying I don't care or pay attention to my group. What's disgusting is that airlines are apparently now charging people to board before others... but I guess people are willing to pay for that kind of thing, so whatever.

It's that damn VE popping up again.

It's magical!