Two Questions

[MDeitch1976]

When going through the ASA Private Pilot Oral Book I came up with a couple of questions:

1) It gives three different communication issues, and how you would handle them when entering to a towered airport. It has three scenarios.
a) Receiver failure, transmitter works.
b)Transmitter failure, receiver works.
c)Receiver and Transmitter failed.

If my receiver fails, how do I know that the transmitter has not also failed?


2)In regards to the anti collision lights. The LSA plane I am using only has strobes, and position lights. One of the three planes we use does have a white anti collision at the rear. The other two do not. One of my instructors and myself did take one of the planes without the light at the rear on a night flight. Was this flight not legal? Do the strobes count as white anti collision lights?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I like your question on the first. There may be signs of whether the transmitter has failed or not depending on the set up. Ultimately the way to test it in the presented scenario is to call the tower, indicate you are not receiving and ask them to flash a light if they receive you.

On the second, both the "rotating beacon" and the strobes are anticollision light systems. For example, the FAA Chief Counsel recently opinied that if you have both, both must be on to satisfy the 91.209(b) requirement (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2011/Murphy.pdf)

 

[MDeitch1976]

I like your question on the first. There may be signs of whether the transmitter has failed or not depending on the set up. Ultimately the way to test it in the presented scenario is to call the tower, indicate you are not receiving and ask them to flash a light if they receive you.

On the second, both the "rotating beacon" and the strobes are anticollision light systems. For example, the FAA Chief Counsel recently opinied that if you have both, both must be on to satisfy the 91.209(b) requirement (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2011/Murphy.pdf)

Thank you for the answer to the first.

The second, still need input. If the plane only has strobes and position lights, will the strobes fulfill the requirement for red or white anti collision lights?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The second, still need input. If the plane only has strobes and position lights, will the strobes fulfill the requirement for red or white anti collision lights?

Yes. The strobe is the "or white" anti-collision light.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Yes. The strobe is the "or white" anti-collision light.

Thank you.

I imagine then the beacons or any other additional lighting, is just an added safety to the anti collision lighting system.

 

[Captain]

There are other ways to test the receiver failed transmitter working scenario.

First, try another radio. Ask if they heard you on the testing radio. If they say 'yes' and you couldn't hear them then it's receiver failed.

Also, you could call FSS on a VOR. Listen to the nav aid and xmit on the radio. If that works then again, receiver failed.

Also, you could bench test the thing.

Also, you could get two planes on the ramp on a Unicom freq.

Also, you could look to see if the little 'xmit' light lights up when you xmit.

Also, you could...well, I'm out of ideas now.

 

[livitup]

There are other ways to test the receiver failed transmitter working scenario.

Yes, but the question is "coming in for landing at a towered airport..."

Of course a portable is a great idea, if you have one. Transmitting in the blind and asking for a light gun would work. Calling FSS on a VOR is an inspired idea. The rest of your suggestions require a cessation of flight not inferred by the question.

 

[flyingron]

Yes. The strobe is the "or white" anti-collision light.

White strobes are anti collision lights.
The nonflashing white light at the back of the airplane is on of the navigation (position) lights.

 

[MDeitch1976]

There are other ways to test the receiver failed transmitter working scenario.

First, try another radio. Ask if they heard you on the testing radio. If they say 'yes' and you couldn't hear them then it's receiver failed.

Also, you could call FSS on a VOR. Listen to the nav aid and xmit on the radio. If that works then again, receiver failed.

Also, you could bench test the thing.

Also, you could get two planes on the ramp on a Unicom freq.

Also, you could look to see if the little 'xmit' light lights up when you xmit.

Also, you could...well, I'm out of ideas now.

The LSA I fly in only has 1 radio. I thought about looking for the transmit light. However, does that verify that I actually transmitted something out of the Aircraft?

How far away can you actually view the light gun? If I were operating outside a Delta Airspace. I believed that I was having receiver problems, but wanted to test if I am transmitting. Could I see the signal from 15 to 20 miles out. I guess I could also fly over, and look down. In the area I fly, I would probably divert with all the available non tower airports, and get it fixed.

 

[MDeitch1976]

White strobes are anti collision lights.
The nonflashing white light at the back of the airplane is on of the navigation (position) lights.

Good knowledge.

 

[AggieMike88]

For question one, my CFI and I discussed landing at a non-towered airport within easy reach of the towered field (15 minutes away ish). Then call the tower at the final destination and explain our radio situation and work up a game plan for arrival and use of light gun signals for making the landing.

The game plan would include description of my aircraft, the direction of my arrival, altitude, and how to acknowledge I saw the signal (such as rock the wings).

Basically, the idea discussed was not to "just show up" as a surprise to the tower crew. Give them a chance to prepare for your arrival and help them to help you.

 

[AggieMike88]

How far away can you actually view the light gun?

Within the pattern, it's easily seen.

Next time you and your instructor are out doing laps at a local towered field, ask the tower to employ the light gun.

The times I asked for light gun at KAFW, the controller was very accommodating. They need to stay sharp on certain skills for their certifications, so if the activity level permits, they like it when pilots ask for the not so routine simple items like light gun usage or a particular approach.

 

[MDeitch1976]

For question one, my CFI and I discussed landing at a non-towered airport within easy reach of the towered field (15 minutes away ish). Then call the tower at the final destination and explain our radio situation and work up a game plan for arrival and use of light gun signals for making the landing.

The game plan would include description of my aircraft, the direction of my arrival, altitude, and how to acknowledge I saw the signal (such as rock the wings).

Basically, the idea discussed was not to "just show up" as a surprise to the tower crew. Give them a chance to prepare for your arrival and help them to help you.

The question in the book states landing at the towered airport.

I agree that I would not just show up to the Towered airport unless it was my only option.

 

[MDeitch1976]

If the white light at the rear is considered a position light, is it an optional Position Light, or required?

 

[MAKG1]

The LSA I fly in only has 1 radio. I thought about looking for the transmit light. However, does that verify that I actually transmitted something out of the Aircraft?

Not necessarily.

With only one radio, you can't be sure your transmitter is working. However, it's a good bet it isn't if it popped the circuit breaker and started smoking, or if your electrical system quit.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Not necessarily.

With only one radio, you can't be sure your transmitter is working. However, it's a good bet it isn't if it popped the circuit breaker and started smoking, or if your electrical system quit.

If something is smoking, I am making an emergency descent, and getting on the ground right away. If I am in the vicinity of the towered airport, 7700, land.

 

[Captain]

Yes, but the question is "coming in for landing at a towered airport..."

Of course a portable is a great idea, if you have one. Transmitting in the blind and asking for a light gun would work. Calling FSS on a VOR is an inspired idea. The rest of your suggestions require a cessation of flight not inferred by the question.

You are correct. In flight going to a towered field was stipulated. I missed it.

Me, in order of prefrence, would first trouble shoot the radio outside the class D or C. In an LSA with one radio that would be quick. Check the xmit light and ensure the volume is turned up. Squelch off ect.

If I'm convinced the radio has failed receive only then I'd just go to a non-towered airport. Once there you can call the towered airport tower and arrange an arrival time and set up and confirm light gun signals. I know there are standard signals, but from experiance, I'd recommend going over them with the tower guy if a planned no comm flight is going to occure.

If diverting isn't an option for some reason I'd orbit the field just above the tower (above the class D) but at enough angle to see the light gun. Ir squak 7600. Many towers won't see this but approach or center will and will call the tower on the land line to advise them. Once notified light gun signals should start.

As a last resort I'd squak 7600 and just blast into he controlled airspace.

Assuming I think the xmit works I'd make reports in all scenarios.

 

[MAKG1]

If something is smoking, I am making an emergency descent, and getting on the ground right away. If I am in the vicinity of the towered airport, 7700, land.

If you're making an emergency descent because you suspect an electrical fire, how do you squawk 7700? The transponder doesn't work with the master switch off.

 

[Jeanie]

Although its against FCC rules if push came to shove and you had their number you could call the tower from the plane.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If the white light at the rear is considered a position light, is it an optional Position Light, or required?

If you fly between sunset and sunrise, you need the always on white (rear), green(right) and red(left) navigation lights in additition to the flashing or rotating anti-colision light. If you are flying during the day, you don't need any of those - just the anti-collision light which no one will actually see during the daytime.

 

[Aileron]

1) It gives three different communication issues, and how you would handle them when entering to a towered airport. It has three scenarios.
a) Receiver failure, transmitter works.
b)Transmitter failure, receiver works.
c)Receiver and Transmitter failed.

If my receiver fails, how do I know that the transmitter has not also failed?

You should always assume situation "a" and announce your intentions in much the same way you would at an uncontrolled airport, this way, if your transmitter does work, ATC will have a better understanding of what you are doing.

For "b", ATC will have you acknowledge their instructions by using the IDENT feature of your transponder.

For "c", just do your normal lost comm's procedure, and don't forget to treat it like the "a" scenario.

 

[MDeitch1976]

If you're making an emergency descent because you suspect an electrical fire, how do you squawk 7700? The transponder doesn't work with the master switch off.

Damnit!

Then I am just going to have to be vigilant as to whether any other aircraft are on final when I land. Or shoot for the grass, or off airport if necessary.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/phak - chapter 13.pdf

Page 13-12.

Back in the olden days, you were supposed to fly in triangles outside the pattern. But apparently, not any more.

 

[MDeitch1976]

If you fly between sunset and sunrise, you need the always on white (rear), green(right) and red(left) navigation lights in additition to the flashing or rotating anti-colision light. If you are flying during the day, you don't need any of those - just the anti-collision light which no one will actually see during the daytime.

I am at work, so has been difficult finding the reg on this

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I am at work, so has been difficult finding the reg on this

The requirements for when the lights have to be on.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.5&idno=14


Position / anticollision lights are in 23-1385 through 23-1401
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...7&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr23_main_02.tpl

 

[MDeitch1976]

The requirements for when the lights have to be on.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...v8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.5&idno=14


Position / anticollision lights are in 23-1385 through 23-1401
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...7&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr23_main_02.tpl

§ 23.1385 Position light system installation.

(a) General. Each part of each position light system must meet the applicable requirements of this section and each system as a whole must meet the requirements of §§ 23.1387 through 23.1397.
(b) Left and right position lights. Left and right position lights must consist of a red and a green light spaced laterally as far apart as practicable and installed on the airplane such that, with the airplane in the normal flying position, the red light is on the left side and the green light is on the right side.
(c) Rear position light. The rear position light must be a white light mounted as far aft as practicable on the tail or on each wing tip.
(d) Light covers and color filters. Each light cover or color filter must be at least flame resistant and may not change color or shape or lose any appreciable light transmission during normal use.
[Doc. No. 4080, 29 FR 17955, Dec. 18, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 23-17, 41 FR 55465, Dec. 20, 1976; Amdt. 23-43, 58 FR 18977, Apr. 9, 1993]

Notice the bold portion. I do believe the lights on the wing tips on the Piper Sports have a continuous white light in them toward the rear portion along with the strobes.

 

[Jaybird180]

Matt- I've had the fun of comms failure twice.

1- Student XC Solo. Enroute to KSBY in a training airplane. I was teaching myself how to use the avionics and decided to get advanced and use Comm1 (we were taught Comm2 as primary) to get the ATIS, since I was within 20 miles. I played with the switches and was able to hear the ATIS, but there was a lot of ATC traffic and I couldn't figure out a good way to get the balance the way I wanted, not turn it off, and wasn't sure if ATC would call me. But enough fiddling and I got the ATIS. Fiddle more and I'm back on Comm2 transmitting position, but not getting anything. I'm close and my adrenaline is going. I see traffic in the area. I fiddle more in a hurry, to no avail. So I squawk 7600 watch the flow and land. I take the first turnoff and then hear this faint voice. I turned up the volume and had moms again! LoL. Tower asked me to call when able. Uh oh!

I parked and called. Tower told me they were giving light gun signals and I did everything perfect (what light gun LoL?).

2- 300nm night XC with family aboard, ATC directed freq change. By now, I'm proficient with the avionics in my plane. I change freq and get no reply. Now it's effective IMC, no horizon, no view of what's below and I'm on instruments and out of radio comms. I try a few more times on previous and new freq using flip flop then went to Comm2 and got them on 121.5. Controller says he heard me, resumed flight. Fluke with reception on Comm1, still no idea what happened as I only changd the freq and hit flip flop to cause the failure.

I'm better with no comms in the terminal area because I fly from a non-towered airport. But because I'm in the SFRA I'm always on ATC and am not comfortable in radio silence while enroute. Basically I'm always squawking and (mostly) talking.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever buy a handheld unless I find a steal of a deal, so I need to just execute no comms procedure if I have an electrical failure.

I personally wouldn't fly a plane at night that other airplanes couldn't see from all aspects. If you have the rear unlit, the risk is being over run by a faster ship.

 

[Captain]

How people end up in planes flying with equipment they don't know how to operate I'll never understand.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Matt- I've had the fun of comms failure twice.

1- Student XC Solo. Enroute to KSBY in a training airplane. I was teaching myself how to use the avionics and decided to get advanced and use Comm1 (we were taught Comm2 as primary) to get the ATIS, since I was within 20 miles. I played with the switches and was able to hear the ATIS, but there was a lot of ATC traffic and I couldn't figure out a good way to get the balance the way I wanted, not turn it off, and wasn't sure if ATC would call me. But enough fiddling and I got the ATIS. Fiddle more and I'm back on Comm2 transmitting position, but not getting anything. I'm close and my adrenaline is going. I see traffic in the area. I fiddle more in a hurry, to no avail. So I squawk 7600 watch the flow and land. I take the first turnoff and then hear this faint voice. I turned up the volume and had moms again! LoL. Tower asked me to call when able. Uh oh!

I parked and called. Tower told me they were giving light gun signals and I did everything perfect (what light gun LoL?).

2- 300nm night XC with family aboard, ATC directed freq change. By now, I'm proficient with the avionics in my plane. I change freq and get no reply. Now it's effective IMC, no horizon, no view of what's below and I'm on instruments and out of radio comms. I try a few more times on previous and new freq using flip flop then went to Comm2 and got them on 121.5. Controller says he heard me, resumed flight. Fluke with reception on Comm1, still no idea what happened as I only changd the freq and hit flip flop to cause the failure.

I'm better with no comms in the terminal area because I fly from a non-towered airport. But because I'm in the SFRA I'm always on ATC and am not comfortable in radio silence while enroute. Basically I'm always squawking and (mostly) talking.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever buy a handheld unless I find a steal of a deal, so I need to just execute no comms procedure if I have an electrical failure.

I personally wouldn't fly a plane at night that other airplanes couldn't see from all aspects. If you have the rear unlit, the risk is being over run by a faster ship.

Thank you for that.
I will probably go up to FDK sometime, and see if they can hit me with some light gun practice.

 

[Henning]

Thank you.

I imagine then the beacons or any other additional lighting, is just an added safety to the anti collision lighting system.

Kinda poor way to think about it, there is no such thing as an 'added safety to an anti collision system', there is just 'the anticollision light system', and as with every system, if it is installed, it must function or be properly secured or removed. What you have is supposed to work, if you have a beacon AND a strobe, they should both be working. Just because only the minimum lights are dictated by the FARs doesn't mean if you have others they don't need to work.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Kinda poor way to think about it, there is no such thing as an 'added safety to an anti collision system', there is just 'the anticollision light system', and as with every system, if it is installed, it must function or be properly secured or removed. What you have is supposed to work, if you have a beacon AND a strobe, they should both be working. Just because only the minimum lights are dictated by the FARs doesn't mean if you have others they don't need to work.

That is not what I was implying at all.

I was speaking of planes that do have the beacons and the rear position light as opposed to those that do not.

 

[jesse]

How people end up in planes flying with equipment they don't know how to operate I'll never understand.

Because that's how it works. You learn in the plane. The typical GA pilot isn't going to FlightSafety to learn every detail about a local rental before they get near it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Notice the bold portion. I do believe the lights on the wing tips on the Piper Sports have a continuous white light in them toward the rear portion along with the strobes.

Without a modification, the PiperSport was not certified for night flight because, while the white position lights are there, they were placed in a position with respect to the curved wingtips that left them unable to be seen from the rear.

 

[Henning]

That is not what I was implying at all.

I was speaking of planes that do have the beacons and the rear position light as opposed to those that do not.

Now I'm really confused, what plane with lights does not have a rear position light? My understanding is you need 4 anticollision lights, port, starboard and stern position lights and a beacon or strobe.

 

[MDeitch1976]

Without a modification, the PiperSport was not certified for night flight because, while the white position lights are there, they were placed in a position with respect to the curved wingtips that left them unable to be seen from the rear.

I wonder if the flight school knows this?

 

[Captain]

Because that's how it works. You learn in the plane. The typical GA pilot isn't going to FlightSafety to learn every detail about a local rental before they get near it.

I wouldn't suggest they do. But it would be swell if there were some sort of person who could provide Instruction in Flight....maybe even Certified to do so.

Ummm, who could do that? ...ya know, provide Certified Flight Instruction. There must be someone in the universe besides FlightSafety.

Seriously, I would never in a million years launch into the wild blue with equipment I needed but had no clue how to operate with the intent of "eh, I'll figure it out as I go."

 

[danhagan]

I like your question on the first. There may be signs of whether the transmitter has failed or not depending on the set up. Ultimately the way to test it in the presented scenario is to call the tower, indicate you are not receiving and ask them to flash a light if they receive you.

Years ago lost transmit only on student solo long XC while getting FF. Controller called out heading/altitude change, but couldn't hear me respond (did as requested). We used the ident to communicate. As back up, he had me tune the VOR and turn the speaker on in case I lost comm 1 completely he would use the VOR frequency.

 

[Henning]

I wouldn't suggest they do. But it would be swell if there were some sort of person who could provide Instruction in Flight....maybe even Certified to do so.

Ummm, who could do that? ...ya know, provide Certified Flight Instruction. There must be someone in the universe besides FlightSafety.

Seriously, I would never in a million years launch into the wild blue with equipment I needed but had no clue how to operate with the intent of "eh, I'll figure it out as I go."

LOL, welcome to my world, "Get this thing out of here". Boats, airplanes...whatever. Anymore I know most the equipment well enough, but it doesn't make much difference since half the time it's broken anyway.

 

[bobmrg]

I am at work, so has been difficult finding the reg on this

Your boss must not mind you using your work computer to access this forum, so use it to find the regulations at www.faa.gov. Big advantage over printed regs is that the online version is absolutely up-to-date.

Bob Gardner

 

[denverpilot]

Also, you could look to see if the little 'xmit' light lights up when you xmit.

Means nothing on most radios. It's an idiot light to see if you're mashing the PTT, but doesn't mean any RF is exiting the box.