Toyota is right about EVs after all...

[SoonerAviator]

https://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/pdf/subsidy.pdf

From your own source: "During FY 2016-22, most federal subsidies were for renewable energy producers (primarily biofuels, wind, and solar), low-income households, and energy-efficiency improvements."

Also, of all of the "subsidies" for O&G, the only one of any consequence (averages around $629M/yr) is the "Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion" tax treatment. You can call it a "subsidy", but it's a tax provision that every single mining company in the US has available to them. It isn't specific to O&G or anything in Energy for that matter. It's just a tax treatment that mining, timber, natural resources, etc use to reduce taxable income by capturing extraction costs. I mean, you can take that out of the tax code, but it's not really an O&G-subsidy but does drive almost the entirety of favorable gov't tax treatment for the energy industry. Renewables get similar tax treatment for expenditures on wind farm lease costs and infrastructure. If we're getting rid of subsidies and tax deductions, O&G isn't going to hardly feel it. Wind, Solar, and Biofuels would likely cease to exist profitably. I'm fine with eliminating the tax treatments across the board, as well as the "subsidies" for all parties.

FY2016-2022
O&G: $7.6B
Solar: $32.9B
Wind: $18.3B
Biofuels: $54.3B

 

[Mtns2Skies]

From your own source: "During FY 2016-22, most federal subsidies were for renewable energy producers (primarily biofuels, wind, and solar), low-income households, and energy-efficiency improvements."

Also, of all of the "subsidies" for O&G, the only one of any consequence (averages around $629M/yr) is the "Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion" tax treatment. You can call it a "subsidy", but it's a tax provision that every single mining company in the US has available to them. It isn't specific to O&G or anything in Energy for that matter. It's just a tax treatment that mining, timber, natural resources, etc use to reduce taxable income by capturing extraction costs. I mean, you can take that out of the tax code, but it's not really an O&G-subsidy but does drive almost the entirety of favorable gov't tax treatment for the energy industry. Renewables get similar tax treatment for expenditures on wind farm lease costs and infrastructure. If we're getting rid of subsidies and tax deductions, O&G isn't going to hardly feel it. Wind, Solar, and Biofuels would likely cease to exist profitably.

FY2016-2022
O&G: $7.6B
Solar: $32.9B
Wind: $18.3B
Biofuels: $54.3B

My point was that O&G receive more tax credits than the EV consumer tax credit that @Half Fast was whining about. And that statement is still true. The argument is about vehicle propulsion, not electric grid powerplants.

 

[SoonerAviator]

My point was that O&G receive more tax credits than the EV consumer tax credit that @Half Fast was whining about. And that statement is still true. The argument is about vehicle propulsion, not electric grid powerplants.

But that's a bit of apples and oranges. Consumer tax credit (presumably) goes to the consumer directly by lowering the price of a car because it's "green" according the the US gov't. The tax treatment for O&G doesn't specifically target O&G, nor is it designed to make anything cheaper for consumers. It doesn't drive consumers to buy ICE vehicles at cheaper prices.

 

[rwellner98]

Correct. The least expensive energy on the planet is utility-scale solar. The most expensive is rooftop solar with a battery peaker.

Very well said. And with the off grid solar, you also lose the reliability of utility power. So you pay the highest possible rate for power and still end up not having it regularly.

 

[genna]

Here's where it is: https://airbnb.com/h/casa-isa

I have 14kw in panels and 40kwh in batteries. I'm running lead acid batteries, because sometimes you have to buy what's available and understood by local suppliers and maintenance people. My electronics are from Outback Power.

Batteries are just awful. They are the single most expensive part of an off grid setup. They have a half life and need to be replaced. We have found a program from the federal government to bring power into rural areas, like ours, and have a meeting setup in two months. Hopefully we qualify for that and will get utility power sometime this year. If so, Mexico currently does net metering, which would mean that my panels will be able to bank tons of credits pushing power into the grid and the grid will act as a perfectly lossless battery.

ok. Got it. Lead Acid is probably not what I would want to be using either.

 

[genna]

Correct. The least expensive energy on the planet is utility-scale solar. The most expensive is rooftop solar with a battery peaker.

oh, I 100% agree. Hence it is not a feasible option at the moment. This can(I'm in no way implying that it actually will) change sometime in the future

 

[Half Fast]

Why aren't you on my libertarian ballot?

If I ever ran for public office I'd likely be shot about 20 minutes into my campaign.....

 

[Clip4]

After reading quite a bit about renewable energy, it appears we have it all wrong. The current census is to charge the car a home, but storage is the issue with inexpensive renewable energy and peak demand is early evening.

A current EV fully charged can run you home for 2 days. The future EVs will charge during the day while working and then power your home.

 

[Half Fast]

Correct. The least expensive energy on the planet is utility-scale solar. The most expensive is rooftop solar with a battery peaker.

I designed a solar+generator microgrid for a village school in the Sudan mountains last year, where utility power was completely unavailable. In that sort of application, solar can be effective and affordable with a proper flexible design that allows for load shedding during periods of limited sun. We had a large, open field available for the panels where they could be given optimum orientation (didn't need a tracking system) and were not shaded. The generator is for powering intemittent large loads (primarily a workshop) and to augment the solar during the rainy season.

Sticking a few panels on a roof, with random alignment and inclination, plus shade from trees, buildings, etc., results in a system with poor efficiency that will never pay for itself.

 

[rwellner98]

No, it probably will not change at any point in our lifetimes. There are technical consequences of trying to build small-scale solar and storage that won't go away.

For example, a ~$10K interconnect protective relay is required whether the link is for a 25 kW system or a 2 GW system.

Yeah, anything that drives down the cost or increases the viability of off grid solar is also going to drive down the cost or increase the viability of utility power because scale will always matter.

 

[Half Fast]

I'm guessing that you're an engineer of some sort,

Yeah, of some sort.

EE, retired from Lockheed Martin in 2021.

 

[Larry in TN]

I charge when I need to charge. I don’t revolved around when it’s best for the grid. Just like I get gas when I need gas.

You're still using Level 1, aren't you? You really can't time-shift Level 1 charging, but it's only 12A so it isn't a big draw on the grid.

Just saw two interesting plots of battery degradation. They showed real-world degradation on the current 2170 Model 3/Y and on the older packs on the Model S of your car's vintage. The newer design performs significantly better with it leveling off around -12% after 200,000 miles. I didn't realize how big the difference is. That could explain some of the differences in the experiences you and I have had with our cars.

Unlikely. A high-capacity EV has just over 100 kWh of storage. A normal 200A 240VAC service uses 38kWh per hour at 60% utilization.

I'm at work so don't have an electric bill handy to check, but, going by my average bill and rate, my 2,400 sqft house uses roughly 60-65kW per day. That's quite a bit less than your estimate so I'll check the usage data when I get home next week.

Work through the math, and you'll see why using the EV as backup storage really won't work very well unless you live in a shack or tent.

I'm not a fan of routinely using the car's battery for grid replacement. Might be nice for grid backup during outages, but I don't want my expensive battery pack being used for the house regularly. Grid replacement/backup is easier duty than powering a car, though, so it probably wouldn't be too bad. I'd rather have some LFP packs for the house.

 

[Velocity173]

You're still using Level 1, aren't you? You really can't time-shift Level 1 charging, but it's only 12A so it isn't a big draw on the grid.

Just saw two interesting plots of battery degradation. They showed real-world degradation on the current 2170 Model 3/Y and on the older packs on the Model S of your car's vintage. The newer design performs significantly better with it leveling off around -12% after 200,000 miles. I didn't realize how big the difference is. That could explain some of the differences in the experiences you and I have had with our cars.


I'm at work so don't have an electric bill handy to check, but, going by my average bill and rate, my 2,400 sqft house uses roughly 60-65kW per day. That's quite a bit less than your estimate so I'll check the usage data when I get home next week.


I'm not a fan of routinely using the car's battery for grid replacement. Might be nice for grid backup during outages, but I don't want my expensive battery pack being used for the house regularly. Grid replacement/backup is easier duty than powering a car, though, so it probably wouldn't be too bad. I'd rather have some LFP packs for the house.

Level 1. I actually set it to 10 A just to be well below the limit for that CB.

 

[Larry in TN]

Level 1. I actually set it to 10 A just to be well below the limit for that CB.

When I get home, my car typically needs no more than two hours of charging at 48A with the HPWC to return to 80%. Doesn't make any difference at what time, day or night, that charging occurs.

 

[Velocity173]

When I get home, my car typically needs no more than two hours of charging at 48A with the HPWC to return to 80%. Doesn't make any difference at what time, day or night, that charging occurs.

My S is being traded in as we speak. Needed more range, tow hitch and AWD.

 

[FastEddieB]

Near Tampa, so we got to see one in the flesh:

My imposing stature makes it seem small, but in the flesh it seems quite massive. Though I believe its overall dimensions are not far off from your typical pickup.

 

[Daleandee]

Near Tampa, so we got to see one in the flesh:

My imposing stature makes it seem small, but in the flesh it seems quite massive. Though I believe its overall dimensions are not far off from your typical pickup.

That thing sure is ugly!

The vehicle that is ...

 

[SoonerAviator]

That thing sure is ugly!

The vehicle that is ...

Got that right. I don't care about the "whys" on drag coefficients, manufacturing decisions, and panel rigidity. It's just an ugly vehicle. Like a beefed up Pontiac Aztek, lol.

 

[Half Fast]

Looks like a car Gene Roddenberry would design.

 

[GaryM]

Looks like a car Gene Roddenberry would design.


View attachment 125831 View attachment 125830

That's not the only design influence that comes to mind.

 

[Jim K]

That's not the only design influence that comes to mind.

View attachment 125832

 

[MIFlyer]

Wait, what?

National Electric Code says you're only allowed continuous 80% of breaker/outlet rating, so 32A charging = 40A breaker/outlet. Your L1 is 15A outlet, so max continuous is 12A.

And L2 is 240v while L1 is 120v. Therefore 240v*32A= 7680W versus 120v*12A=1440W. That's 5.3x and not 2x.

A lot of us with older houses have 20A circuits in our garage, so we can take 16A at 120V on level 1 charging.

 

[asicer]

A lot of us with older houses have 20A circuits in our garage, so we can take 16A at 120V on level 1 charging.

My thread-drift meter just came off its lower stop.

 

[Ghery]

I'll stick with our hybrid. Decent fuel "economy", a definite improvement over the range of anything else in the driveway. Now to figure out why the dealer orders all hybrids with hitch receiver. The Ford Escape hybrid is limited to a 1500 pound trailer, and a hitch receiver is a joke.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I'll stick with our hybrid. Decent fuel "economy", a definite improvement over the range of anything else in the driveway. Now to figure out why the dealer orders all hybrids with hitch receiver. The Ford Escape hybrid is limited to a 1500 pound trailer, and a hitch receiver is a joke.

Bike racks.

 

[FancyG]

Here's where it is: https://airbnb.com/h/casa-isa

I have 14kw in panels and 40kwh in batteries. I'm running lead acid batteries, because sometimes you have to buy what's available and understood by local suppliers and maintenance people. My electronics are from Outback Power.

Batteries are just awful. They are the single most expensive part of an off grid setup. They have a half life and need to be replaced. We have found a program from the federal government to bring power into rural areas, like ours, and have a meeting setup in two months. Hopefully we qualify for that and will get utility power sometime this year. If so, Mexico currently does net metering, which would mean that my panels will be able to bank tons of credits pushing power into the grid and the grid will act as a perfectly lossless battery.

This is the way: https://trophybattery.com/index.php/product/51-2v300e-3ul/

46kW/Victron charger and all peripherals minus cables for $20.6k

Dan is flat-out awesome to deal with and batteries have 10 year full replacement.

Plus your lithium batteries can be drawn down to a very low charge state compared to FLAs.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I'll stick with our hybrid. Decent fuel "economy", a definite improvement over the range of anything else in the driveway. Now to figure out why the dealer orders all hybrids with hitch receiver. The Ford Escape hybrid is limited to a 1500 pound trailer, and a hitch receiver is a joke.

You could still pull a 6x8 trailer with a riding lawn mower with it, or jet ski. Seems like what I'd typically see a crossover SUV towing (when I do see them with a trailer).

 

[Bill]

Near Tampa, so we got to see one in the flesh:

My imposing stature makes it seem small, but in the flesh it seems quite massive. Though I believe its overall dimensions are not far off from your typical pickup.

Sorry, but it reminds me of a bad 8th grade shop project.

 

[genna]

So, I spent some time calculating things. It's not exactly completely comparable due to differences in use and some EPA estimations. But it gives an overall picture.
Gas price: $3.55/Gal. Price has come down since.
Electricity price: $0.146/Kwh. Including delivery, taxes, fees and everything else that is per kwh Price recently went up.

Wall Charging(on the charger every time it's parked at home, even few minutes) test: 860 miles, 11.85 gallons of gas, 282 KWh. Average speed was 29.5mph. This comes to $0.0968/mile
Hybrid only(no plugging in) test: 298.6 miles, 11.46 gallons of gas(25.9mpg), 0 KWh. Average speed was 24.1mph. This comes to $0.1371/mile. This test was a lot less highway driving which I would expect to lower cost slightly. Interestingly, van gives you miles while engine is on, the rest is EV miles(even when regen) the split was 61%Gas/39%EV on this test.

For reference, EPA numbers
Gas only Pacifica: 22 mpg, $0.161/mile(the way I drive, I would expect that number to be lower for my use... Say 19mpg - $0.187/mile
Sienna Hybrid(No plug): 36mpg, $0.986/mile
Tesla Model X(ok, they are not in the same category, but it is the closest thing Tesla makes to a minivan): 0.32KWh/mile, $0.0467
VW Buzz(I can't find real numbers, but taking range/batt capacity at its face): about the same as Tesla(0.30-0.35kwh/mile) depending on configuration

Taking Gas Pacifica 22mpg as a base and using mostly EPA numbers, Sienna and my Pacifica(using plug) would save(assuming prices remain same- right) around $6200 over 100,000 miles. Tesla - $11,400

Is any of it worth it? Largely depends on use cases and priorities in my opinion.

 

[flyingbrit]

Now to figure out why the dealer orders all hybrids with hitch receiver. The Ford Escape hybrid is limited to a 1500 pound trailer, and a hitch receiver is a joke.

It facilitates using a receiver-mounted bicycle rack.