Towered airport without Radar: Who has right of way?

Insane

Insane

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Insane
I'm going to describe a situation that occurred to me recently and would like some comments on how you would have handled. Two planes involved, Plane A and Plane B. I will not say which one I was :D.

Plane A and Plane B are both heading for the same Class D airport. The airport does not appear to have radar facilities. Both planes are talking to the same center controller. Plane A is closer to the airport and probably flying more slowly than Plane B who is a faster plane in general. The ATC controller tells Plane A that he is number one for the airport and tells him to switch to the tower frequency. Plane B in the meantime hears this exchange and may have decided to firewall the throttle and go "a little faster" perhaps because he is late. A few minutes later ATC tells Plane B to switch to the tower frequency and also lets him know he is overtaking the traffic on final by about 50 knots.

So now both Plane A and Plane B are with the tower. Plane A believes that he is number one for the runway, and he is taking his time, getting the gear down early, etc. He is perfectly aligned with the runway doing a straight in. Plane B is a few miles behind to the left of Plane A (not lined up) and is going much faster and not taking his time. He checks in with the tower who lets him know that since he is significantly faster than Plane A he can expect to be number one for the field as long as he "keeps his speed up". Plane A hears this and decides to "pick up the speed" since he knows his plane is almost as fast and there shouldn't be a 50 knot difference. He also presumably wants to land first.

So now both planes are converging on the field with Plane B catching up but not as fast as the 50 knot difference that was advertised early. Plane B does not know this and is thinking he has it made. Both planes are looking out for each other. Plane B sees plane A first since he is slightly behind, when about two miles from the runway. At this point Plane B is probably 500 feet away from Plane A and slowly overtaking him.

If this were an uncontrolled field Plane A would have priority being on the right and also being on final. However, Plane B reports to the tower "traffic in sight am I cleared to land?". Tower not knowing the details says "Plane B cleared to land, Plane A you are now number two following Plane B". Plane A acknowledges that he is now number 2 (with perhaps some annoyance in his voice) and has to do S maneuvers, or a right 360 to get the required separation. Both planes land Plane B first followed by Plane A.

Both pilots of Plane A and Plane B would probably acknowledge that Plane A should have landed first. What could/would you have done?

The pilot of Plane A may have had words with the pilot of Plane B on the ground ;)
 
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Since the pilot of Plane B heard Center (who was working them both) say Plane A was number one for the airport, the pilot of Plane B was rather discourteous in trying to overtake Plane A after Center said that. Everything else stems from that discourtesy. However, after hearing Center resequence them, Plane A's attempt to forge back into the lead was also inappropriate. But once Tower sequences the two planes in B-A order, Plane A is stuck with the result, and then A passing B would have violated a few rules, although it didn't come to that.

So, no rules broken, no FAA guidance broken, just two pilots being discourteous.
 
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Insane said:
I'm going to describe a situation that occurred to me recently and would like some comments on how you would have handled.
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I think you should have let the other guy land first and not been offended.

dtuuri
 
Ron Levy said:
Since the pilot of Plane B heard Center (who was working them both) say Plane A was number one for the airport, the pilot of Plane B was rather discourteous in trying to overtake Plane A after Center said that. Everything else stems from that discourtesy. However, after hearing Center resequence them, Plane A's attempt to forge back into the lead was also inappropriate. But once Tower sequences the two planes in B-A order, Plane A is stuck with the result, and then A passing B would have violated a few rules, although it didn't come to that.

So, no rules broken, no FAA guidance broken, just two pilots being discourteous.
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This. ^
 
RichNY said:
Both pilots are morons.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner!!
It's like people who HAVE to get out of the parking lot ahead of everybody else after an event, wait your turn with a smile. I have been the faster plane in the pattern and the slowest and unless the tower tells me to speed up or slow down, I use my normal speeds. It's not only not childish, it can be dangerous to focus on "beating" someone to the airport, forgotten checklist items, drop the flaps too fast trying to slow down etc. I don't think I have ever raced anyone to the runway, unless I was racing a buddy to the runway. ;)
 
The pilot of plane A needs some remedial training with a CFI.

According to your post the only reason the pilot of plane A sped up was to interfere with plane B. That is careless and reckless. The pilot of plane A needed to take evasive actions in "S" turns to remediate the situation he created. If the tower had radar this would most likely have caused a alert and a failure of separation. Pilot A definitely used extremely poor judgement.
 
A similar thing happened to me once coming in to KAPC. I called tower, and was sequenced for landing. Plane B (a Bonanza) called in a behind me and tower told B to follow me. I was cleared to land shortly after.

Just after I was cleared to land, I literally felt the "whoosh" of the Bonanza overtaking me directly overhead, literally a few feet from collision. I got pretty excited and informed tower that B overtook me.

Tower ended up making B do a go around. I was looking for B on the ground to exchange some words.
 
Tower makes the final decision on spacing and landing,at a controlled field. Was in a twin once on final and was given a 360 so that a 150 coming from behind me to my left was given the no 1, landing spot. You might not be happy,but go with the flow.
 
Sac Arrow said:
A similar thing happened to me once coming in to KAPC. I called tower, and was sequenced for landing. Plane B (a Bonanza) called in a behind me and tower told B to follow me. I was cleared to land shortly after.

Just after I was cleared to land, I literally felt the "whoosh" of the Bonanza overtaking me directly overhead, literally a few feet from collision. I got pretty excited and informed tower that B overtook me.

Tower ended up making B do a go around. I was looking for B on the ground to exchange some words.
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That's insane, it's not like you were flying an airplane as slow as say...mine. Crazy and reckless either way.
 
frfly172 said:
Tower makes the final decision on spacing and landing,at a controlled field. Was in a twin once on final and was given a 360 so that a 150 coming from behind me to my left was given the no 1, landing spot. You might not be happy,but go with the flow.
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Agreed.....

And.....

I have never heard center say " ATC controller tells Plane A that he is number one for the airport " ..

It is the tower who sequences the incoming and outbound VFR traffic..

If both A&B were IFR then center would have spaced them out in the order of arrival into the ATA by time,, not speed. IMHO.
 
Aeric said:
That's insane, it's not like you were flying an airplane as slow as say...mine. Crazy and reckless either way.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that because B came in high and directly in front of me he probably never saw me. But, still, if it were me that was cleared #2 to land and I didn't have #1 in sight, I'd sure be on the horn asking well before a half mile final.
 
I had a airplane over take me once at a uncontrolled airport. I was on short final and the much faster than my 172 twin flew under me and landed first. I almost had words with the other pilot but decided to leave it alone.
 
N801BH said:
I have never heard center say " ATC controller tells Plane A that he is number one for the airport " ..
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I have definitely been told by a TRACON, "You're number one for the airport, contact the tower now..." And not just once, either. I can't remember whether or not I've ever heard it from Center (and I suspect in this case it was the TRACON who made that call), but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it from Center, either, if the Center controller was coordinating with Tower.
 
Both pilots are a danger to other pilots out there. More of the standard whose got bigger c&@k contest. If pilot B really felt more important to be number 1, pilot A should have just let it be. But being Pilot A was having his ego hurt and wanted to be number one, both are morons.

And if the was the same exact at an uncontrolled field, if B really want to burn that much more fuel to be on the ground first, let him go.
 
N801BH said:
Agreed.....

And.....

I have never heard center say " ATC controller tells Plane A that he is number one for the airport " ..

It is the tower who sequences the incoming and outbound VFR traffic..

If both A&B were IFR then center would have spaced them out in the order of arrival into the ATA by time,, not speed. IMHO.
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The landing sequence, as in "you're # 1, you're # 2" can be assigned by approach or center through an LOA with the tower. Normally, approach just sets a basic sequence and tower will assign landing numbers.
 
The tower controller is going to determine who can get to the runway first, and make them #1. The vast majority of towers have a radar display with a ground speed readout of all the airplanes inbound; as an ATC I have had aircraft challenge my sequence throughout my career, but none have had the "big picture" to back them up. Controllers don't always make the best sequence, but they typically work out what is going to be the most efficient and safest for everyone.
 
How did the tower know that plane B was significantly faster than plane A if it didn't have radar?
 
Older I get the more things like this don't get to me. Let the other plane go if the guy is coming in with his hair on fire.
 
Velocity173 said:
The landing sequence, as in "you're # 1, you're # 2" can be assigned by approach or center through an LOA with the tower. Normally, approach just sets a basic sequence and tower will assign landing numbers.
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Yup... That is the point I was making...:yes:
 
Cruiser said:
If the tower had radar this would most likely have caused a alert and a failure of separation. Pilot A definitely used extremely poor judgement.
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What makes you think that the presence or absence of RADAR has any bearing on the responsibility for ATC to provide separation?
 
MAKG1 said:
Because the pilot told him his type at every transmission.
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Don't bet on a controller knowing that whatever light GA type you tell them you are is faster/slower than any other light GA type. Yes, with experience, some get familiar with the more popular types, but there are too many names and too many variations on what people call themselves to count on that working.
 
Okay, so I was Pilot B. Pilot A was very upset with me but let me explain from my point of view and I don't believe I did anything wrong.

I was late for a meeting so was flying to that airport as fast as I could. Fast but not recklessly so, but no this was not a leisurely Sunday afternoon flight. I was not trying to race anybody just trying to get to my destination as quickly as possible. I assumed I was going to be number 2 when I heard all the exchanges and was accepting of that. When ATC told me I was 50 knots faster than Plane A, I will admit I was annoyed. I find it really selfish of some pilots to slow down to LANDING speed five miles out and crawl down the glide slope while the rest of us have to wait. So yes I kept my speed up because I knew the tower controller also doesn't like that and would probably slot me in front. The air was smooth so yes I was flying in the yellow and descending too so had some decent speed going. When I was handed off to the tower, he asked me to keep my speed up and that I would be number 1 now. So I complied and kept my speed up.

As I said when I got close to the field I was VERY surprised to see Plane A had SPED up and was now racing to get in before me. In my opinion, HE was in the wrong. This is exactly like someone on the highway suddenly speeding up to close a gap you're trying to get into. I saw him, called traffic in sight and asked if I was cleared to land. The tower cleared me to land. I then kept it fast as long as I could to help out Plane A. I did nothing wrong. Plane A was very annoyed and he had to "pay for his sins" of having sped up to close to gap but that is his fault and his problem not mine. Yes, he told me on the ground that he had the right of way and that I had pushed in. My point was I had complied with ATC instructions and that once he heard that I was number 1 for the field he made the situation unsafe by trying to race me in.

Maybe I am a moron :D but I did nothing wrong.

At no time was there an unsafe situation. It was a perfect day, smooth air, no other traffic than us. We had each other in sight.
 
If you don't think you made unwise decisions then there is certainly something wrong. Not only that, but as someone said you were just being discourtseous as well
 
Stryker1112 said:
If you don't think you made unwise decisions then there is certainly something wrong. Not only that, but as someone said you were just being discourtseous as well
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Maybe discourteous but not unwise.

I'm also the guy who drives down an empty lane on the highway and pushes in at the end where it closes. So what? I'm busy and slower people who don't seem to care need to just get out of the way. ;)
 
Insane said:
In my opinion, HE was in the wrong. This is exactly like someone on the highway suddenly speeding up to close a gap you're trying to get into. .
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You speeding up to overtake him, after being sequenced behind: OK

Him speeding up to maintain his assigned position: Not ok.

It's all clear now.
 
Insane said:
Okay, so I was Pilot B. Pilot A was very upset with me but let me explain from my point of view and I don't believe I did anything wrong.
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Then you have an attitude problem, as in one (or more) of the FAA's Five Hazardous Attitudes, such as impulsivity and/or anti-authority. Being "late to a meeting" is not an excuse for your actions, and the fact that you suggest it suggests you allow outside pressures to affect your flying priorities to the detriment of safety. It seems you decided back there in the air that you were justified in your actions, and were looking for us here to validate your decision when reasoned reflection would have told you otherwise (even you admit you acted discourteously). However, even after being told by everyone that your actions were at least inappropriate and at worst unsafe, you refuse to accept the opinions of others.

I think you need to work to revamp your attitudes and your in-flight decision making. But, as with addiction, the first step is to admit you have a problem, and I don't see that in your posts.

Those are all bad signs for you as a pilot.
 
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Insane said:
Maybe discourteous but not unwise.

I'm also the guy who drives down an empty lane on the highway and pushes in at the end where it closes. So what? I'm busy and slower people who don't seem to care need to just get out of the way. ;)
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I now think you have a personality disorder as well
 
If the tower controller told you that you were 50 knots faster, they were looking at a radar display. Both pilots may have been discourteous, but some positive control by ATC could have helped. Slowing down and squaring off a turn to final would have added and extra 2 minutes to the flight? If you're in the yellow arc and overtaking the guy closer to the airport, he may not have been flying unreasonably slow.

Next time just tell ATC you're a flight of two and land together if you're both in such a hurry...
 
The most ultimate discourteousness I've ever experienced (aside from the previous instance where I almost got taken out by a Bo) was, as a fairly new pilot, I was flying in to KHAF, which was non towered but they had a temporary tower set up to handle traffic for a fly-in. It was Notam'd.

I was flying a Cherokee 140, and assigned to the pattern. About midfield downwind the tower asked me to rock my wings (no radar obviously.) I did and they asked if I was in a flight of four. I really didn't know what they were asking and why they were asking it but I said "no." Tower said "Land long, and to the right."

I'm all about like WTF but I comply. I look to my left, and there was a plane right next to me. I look to my rear and see two right behind me. We all landed at the same time. The other three weren't talking and decided to just land with me without asking. No metal got bent but I was somewhat annoyed.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then you have an attitude problem, as in one (or more) of the FAA's Five Hazardous Attitudes, such as impulsivity and/or anti-authority.
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So how was I impulsive? I was simply flying to the airport and complying with ATC instructions. How was I anti-authority? Again I was complying with ATC instructions.

Ron Levy said:
Being "late to a meeting" is not an excuse for your actions, and the fact that you suggest it suggests you allow outside pressures to affect your flying priorities to the detriment of safety.
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Well I live in the real world where I use my piloting privileges for real work. Time is money. How was what I did a detriment to safety? I did not intentionally get close to the other plane I was complying with ATC instructions which was to keep my speed up and to expect to be number 1 to the airport. I was looking out for the other traffic and reported him when I saw him.


Ron Levy said:
It seems you decided back there in the air that you were justified in your actions, and were looking for us here to validate your decision when reasoned reflection would have told you otherwise (even you admit you acted discourteously).
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:rofl:

Ron, I am interested in all viewpoints and welcome discussion and will listen but believe me I don't really care if you don't agree with me and certainly don't need you to validate my decision. Maybe you're a celebrity on this board and the red one and a couple of others but in the real world? Sorry you're just another instructor. :lol:
 
Insane said:
When ATC told me I was 50 knots faster than Plane A, I will admit I was annoyed. I find it really selfish of some pilots to slow down to LANDING speed five miles out and crawl down the glide slope while the rest of us have to wait.
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It's not always about what YOU want. Others have as much right to use the airspace in the way THEY want to also. Not everybody has to be in a hurry because you are.

I'm guessing you also get angry when others try to rush you to do something faster than you want to. I think there is an attitude issue here.
 
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bullwinkle said:
It's not always about what YOU want. Others have as much right to use the airspace in the way THEY want to also. Not everybody has to be in a hurry because you are.
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Agreed. But they're still annoying. Just like that prius in the left lane going 10 under the speed limit. Sure it's his right to be there, but he is an annoying prick who should get his ridiculous vehicle OUT OF MY WAY. :D

Same principle.

But you are right. It is their right to be slow and annoying.
 
Insane said:
Agreed. But they're still annoying. Just like that prius in the left lane going 10 under the speed limit. Sure it's his right to be there, but he is an annoying prick who should get his ridiculous vehicle OUT OF MY WAY. :D

Same principle.

But you are right. It is their right to be slow and annoying.
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So you accept it in principle, but in practice you are perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to get your way, rude, unsafe, or otherwise...got it.
 
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